Not knowing who you are

[Valkyrion]

Ok, right...I don't get it. Isn't geneseed supposed to be traceable back to the primarch? Like DNA will be able to prove that a hundred generations of kids later are traceable back to me.

Plus, don't the AdMech know (13th aside) which stock they founded a new chapter with?

So a simple DNA type test should be able to tell you which primarch is responsible for which chapter, or failing that then the AdMech should be able to tell you.

 

So, my questions - how does a chapter end up never knowing their primarch?

How does a chapter end up never knowing its founding?

Why does the AdMech not know, and if they do why don't they say?

 

It's a nice little hook for a few chapters, but I don't really buy it as a feasible plot device. Forgetting where you have come from after thousands of years I could understand, but never knowing? What about the marines sent to train the new chapter? Can't they write anything down?

[WeaponAdept]

Ok, right...I don't get it. Isn't geneseed supposed to be traceable back to the primarch? Like DNA will be able to prove that a hundred generations of kids later are traceable back to me.

Plus, don't the AdMech know (13th aside) which stock they founded a new chapter with?

So a simple DNA type test should be able to tell you which primarch is responsible for which chapter, or failing that then the AdMech should be able to tell you.

 

So, my questions - how does a chapter end up never knowing their primarch?

How does a chapter end up never knowing its founding?

Why does the AdMech not know, and if they do why don't they say?

 

It's a nice little hook for a few chapters, but I don't really buy it as a feasible plot device. Forgetting where you have come from after thousands of years I could understand, but never knowing? What about the marines sent to train the new chapter? Can't they write anything down?

 

I can answer much, but not all, of the above with two words: Conspiracy Theorys

[hobointherain]

I think the most likely answer to this is that the Mechanicus CAN trace gene seed back to its Primarch, in some cases however they may simply choose not to tell for their own particular reasons.

A nice example of this is the Blood Ravens. Officially they don't know the lineage of their gene-seed, though there have been links made to both Blood Angels and the Raven Guard. There have however, been strong links made to the Thousand Sons Legion, raising the possibility that the Blood Ravens may descend from traitor gene-seed. Obviously the Ad Mech and the HLoT would have strong reasons to keep this information covered up

 

Another less contraversial explination is that over time gene-seed of certain chapters has mutated or degraded to such an extent that it is no longer traceable

 

hope this sheds a bit of light for you :D

 

I recommend you do some digging on the blood ravens!

[GhostLegion]

Ok, right...I don't get it. Isn't geneseed supposed to be traceable back to the primarch? Like DNA will be able to prove that a hundred generations of kids later are traceable back to me.

Plus, don't the AdMech know (13th aside) which stock they founded a new chapter with?

So a simple DNA type test should be able to tell you which primarch is responsible for which chapter, or failing that then the AdMech should be able to tell you.

 

So, my questions - how does a chapter end up never knowing their primarch?

How does a chapter end up never knowing its founding?

Why does the AdMech not know, and if they do why don't they say?

 

It's a nice little hook for a few chapters, but I don't really buy it as a feasible plot device. Forgetting where you have come from after thousands of years I could understand, but never knowing? What about the marines sent to train the new chapter? Can't they write anything down?

 

To my thought it is quite possible a marine chapter will not know their progenator chapter or primarch for several possible reasons. The easiest of these is that the records were either lost or simply do not exist. More complicated would be (as previously suggested) a conspiracy of some sort...say a conspiracy of silence which will never acknowledge any information to the source of the chapter's founding. Another reason could be a genetic purge...say the chapter name and history are kept, but the original source chapter no longer exists due to accident or intent. Im sure I could come up with additional posibilities, and im quite certain others will have even more, but these work well enough for the fictional universe. As to how this could happen, well remember that not all chapters have the same reverence for primarch or emperor as any other chapters. Some chapters see primarch above all, others see emperor first, still others see both as nothing more than a good example for others to follow, while still others see the emperor as god and the primarch as his herald to humanity. This variety of belief constructs will allow for multiple justifications of action or inaction, and much more so the amount and type of information made available to the chapter brothers and the imperium at large.

 

How could a chapter never know their primarch? well maybe its just not that important to them. maybe they see the emperor first and primarch as irrelevant. maybe they just focus on their chartered task (you know, the founding charter thing which justifies and establishes the new chapter?...nevermind me, old fluff with no retcon there). maybe they were not to be informed of their primarch at their founding...maybe they just forgot somewhere along the line. again, there are many possible reasons for a chapter not to know the primarch...but i think the first and most likely justification here would be how closely linked the successor chapter is to the parent legion. I would suggest that the further removed a chapter is, the less likely they are to know their primarch, or worry over the influence of their primogenator chapter. one possible view on this from modern times (not fiction) could be the interaction between various military units within a single country's army. while these are all the same force (technically), they will act and react competitively against eachother...insofar as this competition does not hinder mission effectiveness...

 

how does a chapter not know its founding? by this i expect you mean the parent chapter, not the founding date/group. i think i have offered several possibles here already, so i will move on.

 

Why/how does the admech not know? This is both interesting and irrelevant at the same time. the admech has the stated purpose of protecting geneseed and monitoring genetic stability of the geneseed when it comes to the astartes. I have not seen references to testing geneseed to identify sourcing, or any suggestion that they worry about where the geneseed came from other than to ensure it is free of corruption (or as free as possible), and to categorize it by legion as much as possible (ref the various apokrypha quotes available across gw publications). While we could assume they have the technology and capability to generate a dna sequence and back-trace the geneseed, it could also be argued they do not have this capability as this could be the same technologies required to create new geneseed versions...this is repeatedly defined as the emperor's technology and statements are made in various places that the technologies used to create the space marines has since been lost. yes yes, new marines are created to repopulate chapters, but this is a maintenance of current gene-stocks, not the creation of new primarchs and geneseed content. From this position, the admech would most likely emphasize maintaining the current capability, fearing the loss of any more technology...

 

Are there problems with not knowing the parent chapters? maybe maybe not. i think this depends more on the character of the chapter itself and how the chapter relates to the imperium. if the parent chapter is known, how influential is this knowledge? does the chapter feel driven to live up to its parent chapter/legion name? does this even effect chapter function and organization? To me, these questions are best answered by the chapter itself (and the creator if it is deemed important to the chapter history/philosophy), i dont think this plot hole/device either makes or breaks a chapter. I also tend to ignore the fan construct of training detachments sent from other chapters to the new founding, but thats just my view as i have seen nothing which makes me believe this is the case or the only way a new chapter is brought to combat readiness...this is a point for a different discussion though.

 

To put this bluntly, yes, it could be said that any chapter other than those in the dark or cursed foundings could/should know their parent chapter...however, not knowing does not in and of itself constitute a plot hole that will break a chapter's history. If the parent chapter is of significance to the successor, then yes, it should be known...the inverse of this is also true however.

[NightrawenII]

How could a chapter never know their primarch? well maybe its just not that important to them. maybe they see the emperor first and primarch as irrelevant. maybe they just focus on their chartered task (you know, the founding charter thing which justifies and establishes the new chapter?...nevermind me, old fluff with no retcon there). maybe they were not to be informed of their primarch at their founding...maybe they just forgot somewhere along the line. again, there are many possible reasons for a chapter not to know the primarch...but i think the first and most likely justification here would be how closely linked the successor chapter is to the parent legion. I would suggest that the further removed a chapter is, the less likely they are to know their primarch, or worry over the influence of their primogenator chapter.

I would like to disagree with this statement.

The Chapters are more often than not described as the knight-orders of some sort. For warrior-nobility, or any nobility for that matter, the lineage was always matter of pride and honour. Moreover the Primarch, via his genetic heritage, represents the spiritual link to the Emperor and the time of Great Crusade. It also establishes the Chapter's place in the brotherhood of Astartes.

For these reasons, I don't think that Chapter is simply going to forget its ancestors, because 'not-knowing' invalidates and compromises its position.

 

 

~NightrawenII

[GhostLegion]

How could a chapter never know their primarch? well maybe its just not that important to them. maybe they see the emperor first and primarch as irrelevant. maybe they just focus on their chartered task (you know, the founding charter thing which justifies and establishes the new chapter?...nevermind me, old fluff with no retcon there). maybe they were not to be informed of their primarch at their founding...maybe they just forgot somewhere along the line. again, there are many possible reasons for a chapter not to know the primarch...but i think the first and most likely justification here would be how closely linked the successor chapter is to the parent legion. I would suggest that the further removed a chapter is, the less likely they are to know their primarch, or worry over the influence of their primogenator chapter.

I would like to disagree with this statement.

The Chapters are more often than not described as the knight-orders of some sort. For warrior-nobility, or any nobility for that matter, the lineage was always matter of pride and honour. Moreover the Primarch, via his genetic heritage, represents the spiritual link to the Emperor and the time of Great Crusade. It also establishes the Chapter's place in the brotherhood of Astartes.

For these reasons, I don't think that Chapter is simply going to forget its ancestors, because 'not-knowing' invalidates and compromises its position.

 

 

~NightrawenII

 

the whole statement(s) or just part? sure, some chapters are comparible to knightly orders, others are comparible to a warlord and his band, while still others are comparible to warrior-monks. I am hardly trying to state there is only one way or reason that a chapter may be permanently unaware of its primarch here. Neither am i trying to argue that this loss of information would be a truly simple event...however, with the wonders of record keeping in the imperium and anecdotes of whole libraries being destroyed to eliminate one line, one thought, or one idea, who knows what else could be lost?

 

WRT your comparison to a knightly order, I would assume a chapter unaware of its primarch that is organized/stylized in this fashion would make it a point to seek out this knowledge, perhaps to the excusion of all else...one could argue the Blood Ravens fall into this category...

[emperorslion]

Another reason could be that they are descended from the 2nd or 11th legions. Several chapters descended from the Ultramarines really don't fit the Ulramarines "Template" (Doom Eagles, Mortifactors etc...) It has been revealed that these legions were possibly assigned to the Ultramarines and possibly the Imperial Fists. (Soul Drinkers) chapters that descend from the Mortifactors, if you use common chapter traits this could be the Silver Skulls, it could come later on that they are told that their geneseed Does not match Robout Guilliman's gene template. This is similar to what has happened to the Soul Drinkers, when it was revealed that they indeed were not the progeny of Dorn and it was unknown where there gene heritage came from. Then over time they are ingrained into the dogma that they do not know their legacy. Just saying this could be a possibility.

[Malthe]

I'm not saying that its impossible, but the circumstances under which a chapter is not only unaware of its primarch, but is activly mistaken about which primarch they decend from, must be extremly rare.

The conspiracy needed to fool a chapter so thoroughly is unbelievably huge, and more impotantly what on earth would be to gain from ;) -ing a chapter like that?

 

Also, that the Ultramarines have decendents which doesn't 'fit the template' is only logical.

No chapter is a complete copy of their parent chapter, not even among the scions of Robute. In fact it would be fair to asume that the chapters most divergent from their parent chapters are to be found within the Ultramarine gene-line.

After all, sixty percent of the Adeptus Astartes can trace their line back to Macrage so its is only logical to consider this the line with most room for divergence.

 

With all that being said the simplest way for a chapter to be in the dark about its primarch is if it was founded in the 13th or 21st founding. With nearly all records about these chapters being lost or censored, it is of no wonder that many of these chapters does not know their origins.

And I am sure that plenty of these chapters care more about smiting the enemies of Man, than about playing at being historians.

 

A more importent question, I feel, is what does having an unknown gene-seed adds to the chapter in question?

Because if it isn't a defining trait to the chapter in question, for the love of god, please just pick one (Robute)!

[Leonaides]

Why/how does the admech not know? This is both interesting and irrelevant at the same time. the admech has the stated purpose of protecting geneseed and monitoring genetic stability of the geneseed when it comes to the astartes. I have not seen references to testing geneseed to identify sourcing, or any suggestion that they worry about where the geneseed came from other than to ensure it is free of corruption (or as free as possible), and to categorize it by legion as much as possible (ref the various apokrypha quotes available across gw publications). While we could assume they have the technology and capability to generate a dna sequence and back-trace the geneseed, it could also be argued they do not have this capability as this could be the same technologies required to create new geneseed versions...this is repeatedly defined as the emperor's technology and statements are made in various places that the technologies used to create the space marines has since been lost. yes yes, new marines are created to repopulate chapters, but this is a maintenance of current gene-stocks, not the creation of new primarchs and geneseed content. From this position, the admech would most likely emphasize maintaining the current capability, fearing the loss of any more technology...

And in order to check the genetic stability they would need to know what it came from (original source geneseed) which means they must be able to identify sources. That being said, I've seen a few references to chapters suspected of 'aquiring' geneseed from other sources and sending it in as their own to cover up a suspected degeneration of their own geneseed - presumably the Ad Mech dont always check the genetic heritage of the geneseed, or these chapters know exactly what their geneseed should be and also know a few chapters who are suitable 'donors'...

[Bismarxist]

And another thing that would keep a chapter from "knowing" it's Primarch could be genetic deterioration. Not enough to render unusable but enough to make it obviously not UM or IF and then from what I understand the other legions are more and more unstable and therefore do not have one single, identifying characteristic.

[Malthe]

And in order to check the genetic stability they would need to know what it came from (original source geneseed)...

 

Actually I don't think that is a correct assumption.

Firstly cell mutation is quite noticeble, especially if you know what you're looking for.

Secondly, if searching for genetic stability it would be unfruitful to compare a chapters gene-seed to one of the original legions.

Rather you would compared your results to previous samples of the same chapter.

 

Just like when checking the progression of cancer, one wouldn't look at the genes of the patient's grand grand grand grand grand grand grand father.

Rather you perform the test and compare the results to earlier test of the same patient.

 

 

Now this is only assumptions, base on my knowledge of today's medical procedures, so I might be completly mistaken.

But I cling to my point, that you do not need to know the primarch of a specific gene-seed, inorder to check it's purity.

[Bismarxist]

yeah you're probably right about how to check geneseed if you have the records as to how it came from. However when the Imperium often ends up "misplacing" entire planets and such I don't find it hard to believe that more than a few geneseed samples arrive at mars for rating with no records as to who it came from. Then the AdMech wouldn't know who to compare it against and so would compare it to the most logical references, the primarchs.

 

and then if by some blunder or something a chapter was founded with some of that "uncategorized" geneseed then what?

[Leonaides]

Two things - the imperium might lose a few planets here or there but a marine chapter is far far far more important than that. Do you think the Imperium (as in the senior military command) know how many sector commands/ fleet naval command planets they have? Of course they do. Because thats important. A few hundred 'missing' planets in a galaxy spanning empire doesnt even figure as a blip on the importance scale. Geneseed arriving without a record of who sent it? Hell, the marine chapters probably send an honour guard to accompany it too/from Mars (maybe with their techmarines going for training and to retrieve the newly trained techmarines from the last batch)

 

Rather you would compared your results to previous samples of the same chapter.

And what do you compare the first few samples to? Surely to the same geneseed source that they came from. Which then ties that data to the new chapters gene-records.

[CantonWC]

I will add my two pence, if only because unknown gene-seed is one of those things that gets my blood up.

 

I reject the idea that a Chapter can just forget who it's Primarch/gene-seed is. If we don't know exactly what our society was like 30,000 years ago, that's forgivable. We didn't have laptops and iPhones back then. The Imperium does not have the same excuse. Thematically, the Imperium is portrayed as hidebound, superstitious, a place where technology is viewed as magic. Having said that, the Imperium still very technologically advanced compared to modern society, with stuff we can only dream of. Simple recording devices, carefully preserved by Chapter scribes and historians, is not too much to expect I think.

 

Beyond that, is it too much to ask for that the older Astartes say to the younger Astartes, " You know, this is our Primarch. You should revere him." ?

 

If a Chapter does not know at the outset what it's gene-line is, I think that reflects poorly on the Mechanicus if they cannot even identify what gene-seed they're using to create new Chapters.

 

Heritage and history are so important to a Chapter. Or at least, I think it should be. What is a man that cannot recall his own history? He is nothing, in my opinion. If I were an Astartes... and I'm not, but if I were... I would be shocked, appalled, outraged that a brother Chapter does not remember its own Primarch and does not consider it important to know. The Primarch is the reason that Chapter even exists in the first place! They owe everything to him, but they can't even be bothered to remember his name?