I don't like the deployment phase

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I'm brainstorming and would like some ideas from the community. I currently collect a Grey Knight terminator force and a BA Sanguinary Guard force and I want to build a Space Wolve army.

 

I collect armies that don't deploy, I prefer deppstriking and flanking/reserve lists. I'm thinking about a core of Grey Hunters in drop pods but am open to wolf scouts, speeders and sky claws.

 

Basicly I'd like opinions on the various units that can deepstrike and how they play.

[Grey Mage]

Grey Hunters are the premiere drop-pod infantry in the game. No one else hits as hard when they come down and puts as much threat or durability in that spot for the same points. Double up on special weapons, keep a good selection in your list so you can drop what you need where you need it, and theyll never let you down.

 

Our Dreadnaughts arent particularly better or worse than anyone elses in DPs. I tend to spring for ven-dreads in smaller point battles, or if I feel that my AV is simply to fragile. It really does make them a pain in the arse to remove, and if your fielding multi-melta dreads its a good investment for that opening shot anyways. IF, and its a fairly big if, I have the points left over this is where I might put a deathwind missile launcher on one or two of my pods, since that template simply cant hurt the big guy. Sometimes its worth taking saga of majesty to help with the GH leadership, but I rarely need it.

 

Landspeeders and Swiftclaws I tend to deploy on the board. Its actually quite helpful- theyre fast, but Ive rarely found an opponent who can look at them and not go "so thats where the enemy is" and once hes oriented on the board, then he opens up holes for me to rain down into and smash. Landspeeders plug a huge hole for my DP lists- a lack of good solid and cheap heavy weaponry that can keep up the pace. They both give me fairly hard hitting units that are mobile enough to help balance out my lack of on-board transports.

 

I also like taking whirlwinds, for someof the same 'orient the enemy' psychology and because they dont require line of sight anyways.... wich means on most boards I can deploy them in decent cover and just start shelling the enemy. Nothin better than podding two squads of GHs in front of an IG infantry base and melting their artillery/support tanks, and then watch the look on his face as you pin or destroy most of their nanny-plattoon with a single template.

 

Terminators can be a useful addition, wolf gaurd in general really, but Im not overly fond of them in the list. That being said, powerweapons, combiweapons, some more heavy weapons... its all good, all of it useful. Its also rather expensive AND takes up valuable elite slots that should be housing dreadnaughts and wolf scouts.

 

Wolf scouts on the other hand... just nasty. I like to run them cheap and efficient with a power weapon or plasma pistol and a meltagun. Runs 100pts, never dissapoints, and its easy to expand on with another special weapon or a couple pack mates if I have the points left over. I usually only run with one pack, the other two slots being filled by durable and destructive dreadnaughts, but theres nothing wrong with running a second OBEL pack. Frankly though, the single group tends to make most opponents very skittish, far more than their price tag would suggest, and their forward deployment that often results gives me even more options for podding in. Yee-haw!

 

So... tactics. You can go first or second, and you have to be able to reliably do both in all three scenarios and all three objective styles. Frankly, the deployment scenario has a bigger impact on how Im coming in most days -annihilation is always a victory condition- so lets go over them briefly:

 

Spearhead: my opponent is going to be bunched up or in reserves. I can definitely work with this- if he bunches up that allows me to set the pace and in objective games it means I can keep him on the defensive while I slam into his lines and let a late game GH squad come in and score for me. In kill point scenarios hes setting up a 'target rich enviroment' for me, how thoughtful.

 

Meeting engagement: Watch for supporting fire from the flanks, where its most dangerous to pod in at. This is where your landspeeders and/or bikers and/or scouts can really help win the day for a drop podding force. Otherwise nothing to special here... target priority is as always, key to survival and victory. Dont get to spread out, but remember that incoming reserves and a good estimation of what your men can accomplish now will get you through most situations.

 

Dawn of War- this scenario naturally restricts your opponents deployment, wich in turn restricts your targets. Thats ok... obliterating them is not always going to be the best plan. If you go second, hell need to decide between truely reserving or giving you the targets you wanted anyways, if you go first then you can make it quite difficult for him to come in or set up forward positions. Drop pod dangerously close to the edge and restrict his entrance with empty drop pods *deploy your GH squads forward to further restrict his deployment and get them in firing range* and then hit him as he comes in through the natural funnels most boards have.

 

A few other notes:

 

Target priority: Artillery, mobility, killy-units, exposed infantry, opportunity.

Artillery- be its basilisks, vindicators, battle cannons or massed plasmacannons... has a tendency to wreck your very valuable GH squads. Dont let that happen- remove these first. Now, while a kill is always best, a no-shoot result is still just fine. I silently curse the days when I get an immobilized result... *sighs*

 

Mobility- Do they have a stormraven? Rhinos? Super-squads in Raiders? All of these need to die first. Landspeeders, vyper squadrons, Piranhas, all need to go quickly before they get to start exercising target selection on your units. You have the initiative, never relinquish it. If they cant move any faster than you, and you get to choose where youre going to be, they cant effectively make tactical decisions on a board-wide scale.

 

Killy-units- particularly things like terminators, dreadnaughts, tyrant+gaurd, Vangaurd... these are all units that are going to hurt, alot, if they get into close combat but otherwise are not going to be a huge threat. Well, youve brought the assault to them, wich means you have to bring them death even faster to make sure they cant make back their points. Its also alot of fun to drop in a squad of plasma-hunters and watch TDA or nasty MCs just sublimate.

 

Exposed Infantry- next on our list of targets tends to be exposed infantry, wich often means massed shooting units like 20 strong necron warriors, firewarrior squads, etc. If you dont have big killy things to take out, then get the jump on these guys- who have often paid extra for their ability to wittle down an opponent as he closes- by getting right into rapid fire range and removing as many as possible before those guns ever get to roar.

 

Other things, like predators, assault scouts, nanny squads, empty rhinos or non- AC/Plasma razorbacks, are all just targets of opportunity. They just arent a threat significant enough to this kind of force to worry about taking out NOW.

 

A note on podding:

Drop Podding is perhaps the most effective insertion tactic this game has. The ability to reduce scatter to avoid misshaps is incredibly powerful and allows you to drop pod in small places that other units simply would consider suicide. Indeed, use your opponents units to make your drops even more on target than the dice would allow. Use terrain to do the same thing. If its just big enough for a pod, a dread base, and an inch to spare for legality your dreadnaught can be there and it can be killing your enemies- so do it.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Much obliged to you Grey Mage! Given me a hell of allot to think about and I really appreciate it.

[Vantius]

Wow grey mage. What a truly epic response. I for sure will take that advise...

[dswanick]

Seconded, this advice will definitely influence my Deep Strike lists when I get the rest of my Pods built.

[Skywards]

Some great advice there Grey Mage, think I'm gonna have to proxy up some Drop Pods to try in my next game instead of my usual rhinos :)

[Grey Mage]

Im glad you guys liked it, I wanted to expand on a couple of unit selections. Now while unit set up is a very personal decision, and youll no doubt find your own niche, I figured Id throw out some thoughts:

 

Dreadnaughts: I have never once regretted giving them extra armor or a heavy flamer. EA is in my opinion paramount to making sure they stay effective on the field, as otherwise relatively minor damage results can cripple his effectiveness. This is doubly so on ven-dreads, where your going to be asking for rerolls on anything serious. The heavy flamer on the other hand is great- AP 4 and ignoring cover gives a whole extra dimension to a dreads offensive abilities. If you throw it on a MM dread you now have a choice between taking down a heavy armor piece or some artillery or roasting infantry squads as you come in- remember your target priority. That being said, the ability to take out otherwise troublesome units in cover or remove whole chunks of units from the field on a 3+ or better is simply to good to give up for 10pts.

 

Grey Hunters: I strongly reccommend doubling up on special weapons every time. It gives the unit a focus it wouldnt otherwise wich will help you choose targets and frankly just makes them more effective against your chosen targets. You can do this with a combi-weapon, but I find that I usually make good use of their special weapon for 3-4 turns of a game if theyre the first wave, and about 2/3 of the turns otherwise. I prefer plasma to melta, though with a 3:2 ratio overall. What I do not reccommend is giving them alot of toys- take a special close combat weapon or mark of the wulfen *I prefer SCCWs, to each their own* but not both, and totems are powerful... but optional. However, I cannot stress this enough: DONT take dual flamers. They simply wont come into play often enough against 19/20 opponents to be worth it, even for free. You can find the points somewhere for meltas or plasmas, I promise. AP 5 isnt strong enough to pull down alot of the units you need to ignore cover against, and we already covered that eventuality with Dreads and Whirlwinds.

 

Bloodclaws: Bloodclaws do not fair as well in drop podding forces as they do in rhino-mounted or footslogging forces. You dont have the extra room to bring more of them, and their lower BS means they just wont hit as hard when they drop in. I cannot think of a good reason to take them. Their assault abilities can easily be replaced with swiftclaws, combined assaults by GH squads, and the extra firepower youll be bringing that reduces your opponents numbers.

 

Skyclaws: Why? Thats the question I ask every time I look at this unit. They wont deepstrike as well as your pods, they take away from your pod count, and while they do add some strong mobility theyre just as fragile as your other units. While not horrible, they simply dont fill a niche in competitive SW forces. That being said, if you feel like running them its probly worth taking the flamer and a powerfist, and its not a bad place to toss in your HQ. I honestly think youd be better off with swiftclaws or landspeeders.

 

Headquarters: our HQs are awesome, but often hard to place in a Drop Podding list. We want to keep them cheap and lean- like everything in these forces- so I strongly support taking a priest of either variety as your HQ, and probably only that one selection. My two favorites? If running Swiftclaws then a Rune Priest on a bike- allowing his support powers *Tempests wrath to deny mobility and/or Stormcaller to give cover to exposed units* the positioning youll want and to allow his 24" denial bubble to apply for best effect. Wolf Priests can work on bikes, though a cheaper option that is also alot of fun is giving him Saga of the Hunter- allowing your wolf scouts to be even more impressive.

 

WGBLs can serve a similar function, though be careful about overpricing them. I honestly would never consider a Wolf Lord in this kind of force, but again be mindful of the pricing- he could fit in well with a Wolf Gaurd spearhead, particularly in larger battles if you are already bringing pack leaders.

 

Speaking of the old guys: Long Fangs work surprisingly well in DP lists. Small squads of them are quite cheap, wich improves your pod count. They provide stable long-range firepower to the force wich is always handy. Oh, and if you need theyll give you a spot to toss in an HQ choice if all else fails. I actually will often bring them in turn one during Dawn of War deployments, because my opponent is often not deployed anyways and it gives them plenty of time to set up- simply drop them near cover, run into position, and begin firing away once night-fight is safely gone. They can also be deployed before the game, and their pods come down empty later to deny your opponent LOS, movement options, or just to contest objectives- wich is how I use them in most non-DoW deployments.

[Tsavong Lah]

Roughly how many pods are you taking in a 1500-2000 point list? 5?

[Grey Mage]

At 1500pts I usually have 5, but Ive been known to take 7. At 2000pts I usually have 7 or 9.

 

A standard 1500pt list for me tends to be: 30 GHs, 2 Dreads, a RP on a bike with swiftclaws, and a landspeeder with either scouts or a whirlwind.

 

2k on the other hand... let me find my go to 2k list....

 

HQ: 145pts.

Rune Priest- Bike, Meltabombs, WTT, Stormcaller, Living Lightning- 145pts.

 

Elites: 415pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, HF, EA- DP- 165pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, EA, HF- DP- 165pts.

5 Scouts- Meltagun- 85

 

Troops: 1085

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, Totem, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, Totem, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, Totem, DP- 215pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, DP- 220pts.

 

 

6 Swiftclaws- Powerfist- 175pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

Its not complicated, and its easy to expand from to 2500pts. Going down to 1500pts I drop a few swiftclaws and two GH packs and move things around a bit.

[postal105]

i will say this much i would take what Grey Mage is saying as he is a wise old wolf

[Tsavong Lah]

Awesome, thanks for taking the time to write all this up. I might have to pick up a few more drop pods now... :P

[Grey Mage]

Well, if your group is open to proxies like mine is, it might be worth your time to pick up some 14oz plastic cups about the same size as a DP- you can find them at the dollar store pretty easily and theyre almost the perfect size and shape. That way you can experiment with the style a bit before you drop alot cash on transports.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well, if your group is open to proxies like mine is, it might be worth your time to pick up some 14oz plastic cups about the same size as a DP- you can find them at the dollar store pretty easily and theyre almost the perfect size and shape. That way you can experiment with the style a bit before you drop alot cash on transports.

 

Yeah, but just make sure you mark where it is, so that when you take a sip arguments don't break out over where your slurpy was :)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

So Grey Mage, you advise againsweapon and the Wolf pods only carryt a Wolf Guard pack leader for the GH packs as they need to be 10 to get the second weapon and wolf pods only carry 10.

[Grey Mage]

Im not quite sure wich way you meant, so Ill spell it out: I prefer, and think its more efficient, to run 10 GHs with two of the same special weapon, with either a powerfist or powerweapon on a GH for those hard to kill targets. I run basicly two GH packs:

 

2xPG, PF, DP and 2xMG, PW, DP. 220 or 205pts respectively. Totems get added in at the end if I have the points.

 

@Wilhelm: I dont drink upside down slurpies, is that an OZ thing?

[Coverfire]

I like to use Long Fangs and drop empty pods so that I have everything on the table turn 1. If my opponant was holding back in reserves then I could use the empty pods on turn 1 and have the rest of my force show up later in the game, but that has never arisen as yet.

 

I would assume that Grey Mage would drop the 2 Dreadnoughts with a squad of Grey Hunters on turn 1? Or do you get the Grey Hunters on as soon as possible and have the Dreadnoughts mop up in later turns?

[Orphus]

If its such a hassle you could always not deploy. Just choose a board side/edge and go for it. :rolleyes:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

@Wilhelm: I dont drink upside down slurpies, is that an OZ thing?

 

You never said you turned them upside down.... :wacko:

 

*ahem*

 

Okay, some questions.

 

What do you do as a Drop Wolf, when you are playing against:

 

1] an all reserved Eldar Bike army - a lá Fritz's from Way of Saim Hann?

Basically, the Eldar list has no need to set up.

 

2] Horde Orks/Nids.

There is a big carpet of grunts. Usually I would be using metal bawkses to out manoeuvre them, clog or deny them, and would probably deploy on a flank.

 

3] Deldar Raider spam. The have longer reach than the GH packs AND are more mobile....

They are probably better than '1' at it.

 

I might have asked these kinds of questions before *cough* but maybe this could all be compiled into a Tactika for we of little experience with Steel Rehn.

 

"We have placed numerous beacons, allowing for multiple, simultaneous, and devastating defensive deep strikes. The Codex Astartes names this manoeuvre as Steel Rain. We will descend upon the foe, we will overwhelm them ...we will leave none alive. Meanwhile, our ground forces will ensure the full defence of our headquarters. We are the Space Marines! We are the Emperor's fury!"

[Vantius]

Thanks for the great tips Grey Mage.

 

I was wondering how you would go about a pod list at 1250 points. I'm finding it hard to com up with a list that I think could be competitive, though. I would imagine that 5 pods would still be ideal, and that long fangs would be a good choice, since they come in a bit cheaper than other units. In general, it seems like all the units would need to be basic, which makes me question having a pod list at such low points values.

[Araith]

5 pods at 1250 points is a good number. Starting with 3 packs of Grey Hunters you'll have half your points fixed and would only need to fill 2 other pods. Long Fangs are a cheap option, but I don't think it's the best. They can provide some killer fire support, but an additional Dreadnought would hardly be more expensive (unless you take a really small Long Fang pack) and its more versatile use would probably be more useful at this points level than the Long Fangs' fire support.

[Grey Mage]

I like to use Long Fangs and drop empty pods so that I have everything on the table turn 1. If my opponant was holding back in reserves then I could use the empty pods on turn 1 and have the rest of my force show up later in the game, but that has never arisen as yet.

 

I would assume that Grey Mage would drop the 2 Dreadnoughts with a squad of Grey Hunters on turn 1? Or do you get the Grey Hunters on as soon as possible and have the Dreadnoughts mop up in later turns?

I tend to bring in the Dreadnaughts early, as they are fairly durable creatures and their heavy weapon armaments are fairly versatile. However, if the enemy is saturated with melta-weapons but light on infantry killing power Ill drop the GHs in first to tear a few holes and bring in my dreads once its safe. Flexability in deployment is on the primary strengths of this kind of tactic.

 

 

Okay, some questions.

 

What do you do as a Drop Wolf, when you are playing against:

 

1] an all reserved Eldar Bike army - a lá Fritz's from Way of Saim Hann?

Basically, the Eldar list has no need to set up.

Castle up. If I have the opportunity, Ill deploy a couple units in cover and then use DPs to bring in more, creating a strong point for the Eldar to assault. Most of the items in a saim-hain list have short ranges so this is where things like my Dreads and Long Fangs are really going to shine. My Speeders and Bikes will probly stay in reserve, something I dont usually do, to make sure they dont get alpha-striked off the board but can instead get onto the field to hunt down the more long-range units and save my bacon later in the game.

 

2] Horde Orks/Nids.

There is a big carpet of grunts. Usually I would be using metal bawkses to out manoeuvre them, clog or deny them, and would probably deploy on a flank.

Id do the same thing with pods. DPs can block terrain and funnel the enemy in the same manner. Ill often deploy the majority of my units *assuming a pitched battle here* in a gunline and then block off as many of the paths to them as possible with pods and just shoot them down as they close. Later in the game Ill toss down a few more units to bolster the gunline, block off more paths, or take out newly exposed lynch-pin units.

 

3] Deldar Raider spam. The have longer reach than the GH packs AND are more mobile....

They are probably better than '1' at it.

Youre right, they are- so killing those raiders is priority one. Though frankly... Venoms are more dangerous to me than Raiders. Raiders have more solid units inside, but those darn venoms get an impressive 12 poison shots a turn- and are likewise backed up by ravagers for AV killing. Anyways, gotta figure out what units are scoring early on- since objectives are usually important- and take out their rides first. If theres alot of them, say 3 man wracks, then I hit what I can and make a carpet around the table- units around 12-16" apart, so I can support each with the others and still cover a huge area of the board. Ill lose more men than in most fights, but the DE cant outrun me all game- eventually they have to close, and with good deployment durability has tended to win out.

 

I might have asked these kinds of questions before *cough* but maybe this could all be compiled into a Tactika for we of little experience with Steel Rehn.

 

"We have placed numerous beacons, allowing for multiple, simultaneous, and devastating defensive deep strikes. The Codex Astartes names this manoeuvre as Steel Rain. We will descend upon the foe, we will overwhelm them ...we will leave none alive. Meanwhile, our ground forces will ensure the full defence of our headquarters. We are the Space Marines! We are the Emperor's fury!"

I really wish we had locator beacons, that would make these lists even more deadly.

 

Thanks for the great tips Grey Mage.

 

I was wondering how you would go about a pod list at 1250 points. I'm finding it hard to com up with a list that I think could be competitive, though. I would imagine that 5 pods would still be ideal, and that long fangs would be a good choice, since they come in a bit cheaper than other units. In general, it seems like all the units would need to be basic, which makes me question having a pod list at such low points values.

Well... 1250 isnt a bad list size. I actually won a tournament, with a running total of 35 kill points over three games, at 1,000pts with an all drop pod list just two weeks ago. They are certainly viable. heres an example Ive used to good effect:

 

Wolf Priest- Saga of the Hunter, MBs- 120pts.

 

5 Wolf Scouts- Meltagun, Powerweapon- 100pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, EA, HF, DP- 165pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, EA, HF, DP- 165pts.

 

10 GHs- 2xPG, Powerfist, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2xMG, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2xMG, PW, DP- 205pts.

 

Landspeeder- 2xMM- 80pts.

 

It wouldnt be hard however to drop a dread for some LFs... and get something interesting like so:

Wolf Priest- Saga of the Hunter- 115pts.

 

5 Wolf Scouts- Meltagun, Powerweapon- 100pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, EA, HF, DP- 165pts.

 

10 GHs- 2xPG, Powerfist, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2xMG, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2xMG, PW, DP- 205pts.

 

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

 

5 Long Fangs- 4x Missile Launcher, DP- 150pts.

 

I dont think either of these lists is light on bodies, firepower, or feels lightweight at 1250pts. Your thoughts?

[Niiai]

I must say I am a big fan of Grey Mage's drop pod advice and he has insipered me a lott.

 

However, I do not like full squads of GH. I play in a very mech heavy enviorment and for me, the combi melta 6 man unit is better then the 10 man doubel melta unit. Mind you I feel like I sueside a lott more then Grey Mage does.

 

My oponent last time had outflanking horse riders, marbo and a tank with S8 AP2 big blast teplate. Thos 3 wjhere devestating for me as marbo takes out the long fangs (we usualy do not have enough aria terain for 2 squads of long fangs, so I must use baricades. He shows up behind and throws his bomb.) The horse riders took out 10 grey hunters and his leman russ targeted the drop pod, scoring a hit and getting almoast all of my grey hunters in the blast template.

 

True, in that game I had some very bad dropping (one scattered 12" of the table) and a lott of my melta did not hit. At the end of the game he has the horse riders, the leman russ, his comand squad + chimera, and 2 hydras. It was only 1250 points and he tabeled me in the 7th turn. (Bad luck as none of us had any scoring troops left.)

 

In sutch small games full units of grey hunters are not so good. Also, 2 dreadnoughts with flamers and MM where not so good against chimeras with veterans with meltaguns. While I like a lott of bodies in some games it is important that I have enough melta's. My favoret weaponds are melta\multi melta and heavy flamers flamers. That means smaller units of grey hunters, dreadnoughts (perhaps one scout) and landspeeders. Long fangs are also important to make shure you can back up the flanks wherever you need it.

 

***

 

I se you where talking about 1250 games after i posted.

 

My list was:

 

Rune priest 100 (living lightning and cover saves.)

 

Dreadnought Drop pod, multi melta and flamer

Dreadnought Drop pod, multi melta and flamer

 

10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns, wolf banner, mark of the wolfen, drop pod.

10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns, wolf banner, mark of the wolfen, drop pod.

5 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Mark of the wulfen, razorback heavy bolters (for holding home objective)

 

Landspeeder, multi melta and heavy flamer.

 

5 Long fangs, 4 Missile Launchers

5 Long fangs, 4 Missile Launchers

[Eirik_Xenobane]

Hmmm

 

Lately I've been playing a Logan and Njal TDA drop pod list at 2k. Basicly it's 2 4xman wolfguard squads (with Logan and Njal leading one each) and 3 5xman TDA wolfguard squads.

 

Low model count but tough and very effective up close (each squad has 3 stormshields so they can weather a fair bit of fire). Grey mage's magnum opus here has made me think about shelving my force for a bit and trying a variation on the 7 pod drop with Grey Hunters and dreads.

[Kassill]

After reading through this thread Im seriously giving thought to switching to Drop Pods. See what'chya done Grey Mage! B)

[Niiai]

I do agree that Space Wolves is the best Drop Pod army. The grey hunter is sutch an effective troop choise, and they have meltaguns.

 

Blood angels and regular marines can have a huge number of dreadnoughts. And black templar do not suffer from having to come down the first turn. (At the same token they can not chose what comes down first.) But I still think Space Wolves is the best. However, it is imminent that you play drop pods agresivly. And there is always the problem of the oponent reserving everything.