Grey Mage Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Why is my opponent reserving everything a problem? Seriously, it gives me even more of the initiative while he gambles that hell be able to bring in what he needs to take it back. While my DPs come in with atleast half of my forces on the board turn one he comes in peicemeal, entirely at the whim of the dice. Im not going to pod in and then sit there in the open with my tongue hanging out going "hey, whered did they go george?". No. Im going to take the spots on the field that will give me the firing lanes I need to punish him as he comes in. Im going to bring my long-range units in, or the ones that will be least affected by his oncoming reserves and Im going to get them into the toughest positions possible. Normally when I pod in LFs I have to do so carefully, knowing theyll only get a 2" deployment and a d6 run to set up their guns- well now I can add a full turn and another run, because he wont be coming in during his turn one. What a thoughtful opponent I have, allowing me to deploy everything the way I want before he even shows up. Of course, if he deploys first Ill even know all about it so I can now deploy some things safely in the backfield, bring in the rest in foward positions, and then use DPs that are left over to block off routes onto the board or cut off key areas of LOS that my opponent is going to want to use. Even better. The idea that my opponent reserving his force- a force that in all likelyhood is NOT designed to fight that way- is going to give him some tactical advantage over my robust and hard hitting force is outdated. It worked for a little bit, because C:SM units simply arent as effective as ours are in a DP force and because many DP players didnt know what do in these situations. It became an off the cuff solution "oh just reserve it all" and people believed it... so DP forces started to disappear. But it is why I prefer larger units to small ones. Small units are easy to wipe out, dont always hit as hard, and have a harder time holding ground. Larger units can take a hit if my opponent rolls in from reserves to try and take their positions from them, and they can hit back while my own fast moving reserves come in to help patch whatever holes the enemy has made. The exception to this is Eldar. All reserve skimmer based Eldar forces running a pair of Autarchs for complete reserve control are going to do well- but it should be noted they dont do any better against this force than the would against a mobile force, as a good player will be destroying transports and then tank shocking enemy units- and you as the DP player should be making tank shocking your forces as hard as possible, just like a rhino-player would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2952579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vantius Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Inspired by this here thread, I decided to play a match with my friend in preparation for a local tournament at 1250 points. He had a very tough list: Warrior Prime 3 broods of Genestealers w/Brood Lord and trimmings Y-Stealers Doom I decided to do a proxy list with drop pods: Rune Priest, LL MH Scouts w/MG and PP 2x10 Hunters, MGs, PW, Pod 10 Hunters, PGs, PF, Pod 2xSpeeders MM/HF 4 Fangs w/ 3 MLs 5 Fangs w/ 4 MLs Although the Tyranid list I faced is likely rare, it was good to practice against because it is a very heavy anti-troop list. I lost the match. The Stealers were just too much, and the Doom was a very big pain in my rear end. I could have done much better had I deployed better, proving to myself that I will need as much practice with this type of list in order to improve. I dont think either of these lists is light on bodies, firepower, or feels lightweight at 1250pts. Your thoughts? Yes that is a formidable list. I see now that the challenge is in honing your skills for applying your strategy during a match. I will have to try the Wolf Priest instead of the Rune Priest. I just hate that the Rune Priest has no invulnerable save. I see what you say about the Dreads filling an important roll in the Drop pod army. It would have been very helpful in this case to help me deal with the doom and add some more solid firepower. It is very hard not to take Wolf Guard in these lists as well. They are so very valuable. I also very much missed wolf standards, and would for sure add these in larger point values. While others are mentioning that it is difficult to face an all reserved list, I was face with 3 units of genestealers infiltrated (which I thought was a much more difficult scenario). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2952740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niiai Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Perhaps reserving everything is not the best thing ever Grey Mage. But if your oponent does so, he can just come on the table in one corner. While your grey hunters would be spread out and around. But the advice sounds sound. While I agree that 2x autarch is the only bad matchup, dark eldar can also be a pain. Worst thing I can think of though would be dawn of war where everything can just walk on in turn one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2953019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araith Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Then don't spread them out, but have them take up supporting positions where they land. If you can also take up positions he cannot ignore, for example near a cluster of objectives, or a central objective, they won't be left out of the fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2953326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Great... now I'm going to have to try and think up a 1,000 point drop pod army and give it a whirl with proxies. The question is... do I just go Grey Hunter heavy with a unit of scouts w/Wolf Priest? HQ - Wolf Priest, Runic, Saga of the Hunter Elite - Wolf Scouts x5, Melta, MotW Dread, MM, Heavy Flamer, EA, Drop Pod Troops - Grey Hunter x10, Melta x2, MotW, Drop Pod Grey Hunter x10, Melta x2, MotW, Drop Pod Grey Hunter x10, Plasma x2, Motw, Drop Pod Comes to 995 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2954206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 drop the EA and add banners to the meltapacks? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2954250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 EA is IMO invaluable on a Dread- hed be better of dropping the runic armor, picking up meltabombs for the priest, and adding the two banners if thats how he wants to roll them. If nothing else that five points should be going to the priest for meltabombs or a WTT. Im not a big fan of MotW, but thats personal preference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2954301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araith Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Standards are a good idea. I agree with Grey Mage that you're better off dropping the runic armour for standards than the extra armour. As regards the matter of power weapons vs mark of the Wulfen, opinions are divided there. On my part I do suggest retaining the mark on the scouts, since more than the Grey Hunters they can always use the extra attacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2954354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 drop the EA and add banners to the meltapacks? Keep the EA especially on a CC dread with MM and HF Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've never used Drop Pods, but from the 'dex Drop Pod Assault says you must deploy half of them first turn. Now, this is required and not optional to hold them all in reserve, correct? Or is that an optional ability? Assuming the former. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It is required. Very reliable drop pods are, but its not a weakness if you use it right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I'm going to give that 1,000pt list a shot this week against a fried. I'll just need to get some cups to proxy. Also may just use a rifle dread instead of podding one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Just remember- your initial drop is half rounding up, so if you only have two pods you only get one... as opposed to three wich will get you two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Perhaps reserving everything is not the best thing ever Grey Mage. But if your oponent does so, he can just come on the table in one corner. While your grey hunters would be spread out and around. Not if your opponent has any intention of making an honest effort at trying to secure Objectives (more or less a requirement to win in 2/3 of the standard Missions). V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirik_Xenobane Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Take a lesson from real world military history, don't spread the dropzone. You need to concentrate and create a solid, heavy punch. In a game with objectives, pick one and grap it in the initial drop, concentrating your forces on this DZ so you can then have a solid spearhead to thrust into the enemy. In kill point games, select an area of the enemy line you wish to eliminate and drop into it. In my experience with Loganwing drops it's far better to put 3 WG packs into a location than to spread them around to get picked off one by one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 It all depends on what your facing. Sometimes you need to hold a flank or take out a critical peice of the enemy army turn 1 before it has a chance to make its points back on your men or get out of your range. Knowing just how much punishment your forces can take, and just how much theyll likely have to, makes all the difference in DPing lists. In many cases its actually harder for Terminators to take enemy hits than for GHs, because pt for pt GHs have more wounds- and in the end wounds are a currency on the battlefield. A 1 kills a terminator same as a GH, but theres alot of stuff out there that ignores armor all together- and cover saves are better than invulnerable saves more often then it likely should be. When a IG special weapon team hits you hard with plamsa it wont make any difference if youve got TDA in cover of PA in cover eh? That being said, the flexable loadouts of WGTDA are an amazing boon to any force, and not to be trifled with if you set them up well. Theyre just a far more aggressive squad in these situations than a defensive one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2956418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vantius Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 i know it was mentioned before, but Grey Mage should really make a tactica.....that would be fantasmical. ;) Either way Grey Mage, thanks for spittin' kowledge in the direction of some us blood claws... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2958141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Ill think about it and see what I can rustle up. Im really not that good at the formatting for this site, thank god its not a requirement for modhood eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2958151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vantius Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 @GreyMage well im still greatful for you answering all of our questions. By the way, what do you think is the biggest advantage the drop pods offer against opponents who are not familiar with facing such lists? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2958162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Target selection and gauranteed reserves. Most players whove been in the game are counting on whats not on the board not showing up tell around turn three or so- and DPs bite that idea in the butt. Target selection should be obvious, but the ability to take your weapons and use them against those targets theyll be most effective against on the fly with little your opponent can do about it is a really good way to cripple them before they can respond- and in fact this kind of force relies on that ability. Canny opponents can learn techniques to deny you this- such as the infamous all reserves tactic- but a good DP player will know the counters to those counters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2958225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have to agree with Vantius, thanks so much Grey Mage. You've inspired this wolf to play with Drop Pods! :lol: +1 for a tactica! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2958357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vantius Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I have been considering fielding multiple units of TDA Wolf Guard in drop pods. I want to try them 5 strong with just power weapons and storm bolters, with the fifth having an assault cannon and PF or Cf (I see it as cheaper is better for this unit). Does anyone know how these sort of units might fair? I see them being an extremely formidable force, coming in at only 240/245 points. I think the only downfall could be wound allocation. But just 10 points for a combi weapon and a wolf claw (and putting the chainfist on another model) could solve that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2959816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Does anyone know how these sort of units might fair? Go find a C:SM player who uses tactical termies and you'll see how this unit might fare... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2959855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Ill think about it and see what I can rustle up. Im really not that good at the formatting for this site, thank god its not a requirement for modhood eh? GM, I'm good with the formatting, if you want to work on the content of a Tactica and route it through me for "polishing" and publication. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2959984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I have been considering fielding multiple units of TDA Wolf Guard in drop pods. I want to try them 5 strong with just power weapons and storm bolters, with the fifth having an assault cannon and PF or Cf (I see it as cheaper is better for this unit). Does anyone know how these sort of units might fair? I see them being an extremely formidable force, coming in at only 240/245 points. I think the only downfall could be wound allocation. But just 10 points for a combi weapon and a wolf claw (and putting the chainfist on another model) could solve that. Your sacrificing alot of their power and versatility for a relatively small drop in price. At 2+5++ theyre vulnerable to masses of plasma or torrent of fire with only five men. I honestly think that if your going to field 5 man squads of TDA you should include atleast one stormshield in the unit and some combi-weapons. Wolf Claws are also good if you have the points- or simply run out of powerswords :S. Youll also need to take Logain or take GH anyways, wich adds alot of expense to the force. Much like with footslogging or mech versions, all WG forces should have a good mix of TDA and PA to really shine at their brightest. Ill think about it and see what I can rustle up. Im really not that good at the formatting for this site, thank god its not a requirement for modhood eh? GM, I'm good with the formatting, if you want to work on the content of a Tactica and route it through me for "polishing" and publication. Valerian Sounds like a good plan my friend, Ill send you a PM of it next week then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/243959-i-dont-like-the-deployment-phase/page/2/#findComment-2960059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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