Sanguinary Guard and Re-Rolls

[mustardParty]

So I was playing a 1500pt game with some of my buds the other night and my Sanguinary Guard get into some hot HTH action with his Orks, and my bud insists that I roll 5 sets of different colored dice, 3 each (2 base, 1 for the charge). His reasoning is that each Sanguinary Guard model is afforded a single re-roll to hit due to Master Crafted status for their 2-handed power weapons.

 

I'm content to roll the whole lot and just pick out 5 misses and re-roll them, but he wants different colored sets of dice, because the re-rolls are assigned 1 to a model, not 1 for every model.

 

Fair enough I suppose. He wants a set of dice for each model, because one model might have more than one miss, but that model only gets a single re-roll, and some models might have all their hits land, and with distinct dice sets, it's clear which dice belong to which model when they're all rolled in one go.

 

For him, if one model had all his attacks hit, and one model whiffed twice, I shouldn't re-roll 2 dice, just one, because because one more landed all his hits, so I lose his re-roll, and one guy missed twice, but only get a single re-roll.

 

So, those of you that field Sanguinary Guard regularly, what's your experience with this situation. Do you find your opponents require similar accommodation?

[Morticon]

according to the rules, he's right. Statistically, it should really average out, but it doesnt always work that way. According to the rumours for 6th ed, this will change to the way you play it. But until then, every group ive played with (myself included) roll individually.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Morti is right. They should be done individually in order to ensure each model is given one re-roll as applicable rather than just re-rolling 5 dice that miss.

[Leonaides]

As above - them's the rules, just picking up 5 misses is by any reading of the rules cheating. It might seem like a small thing, but if that small thing happened to decide the result of the whole battle I'd damn well be making sure you were doing it by the book, so for fairness sake I would make sure you did it right the rest of the time. I'd also hold myself to that standard - normal people dont like winning by cheating...

[vharing]

I had the same thing happen in a game once against a salamanders player. His MCed TH vs my MCed GEs. I find you actually get more hits rolling each models attacks separately, too.

[Babel_Triumphant]

In my group we do them together, because it's not a big difference and it's really annoying to do it separately.

[spu00sed]

Try adding Dante, a Librarian and a priest to the unit.

 

I have a speical dice pot with sets of multicoloured dice for use with my sang guard army.

 

My usual rolling is everyone but one model hits and that one fails every single attack and his 1 reroll. :D

[Coopervisor]

I run them with a librarian and unleash rage, thus giving them all re rolls.

 

But you're opponent is right, better to roll for each individual. Also have to do this for a few other things such as multipul plasma gun users rapid firing.

[Warbringer]

I wonder how TO's would go with it.

 

TBH me and my gaming amigo's play its as i re roll 5 misses as the group gets 1 re roll each and we just accept that if they've got the same stats and equipment and are going against the same unit then Meh it'll work out the same overall.

 

I would play it anyway my opponent wanted thought as i'm not precious about rules :D

[shortysl]

I'm not a Blood Angels player but my best mate and regular gamimng opponent uses Flesh Tearers so i can speak from the perspective of someone who's been on the receiving end of re-rolls. To resolve re-rolls, we simply roll all of the attack dice together and re-roll the allowed number of misses. The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

[Zhukov]

The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

You can't cheat while hiding behind 'the most important rule is to have fun'. He obviously has more fun if both players play by the rules, you blaim him for that?

 

I automaticly rolled them seperately when I played with them, because I don't want to gain a potential unfair advantage, it's as simple as that. You quite often get 1 or 2 extra kills when you don't.

 

But yes, it *is* annoying, I give you that. You don't need to use colored dice though, takes probably longer to grab those than just quickly rolling 5x3 dice.

[BigBaals]

The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

You can't cheat while hiding behind 'the most important rule is to have fun'. He obviously has more fun if both players play by the rules, you blaim him for that?

 

I automaticly rolled them seperately when I played with them, because I don't want to gain a potential unfair advantage, it's as simple as that. You quite often get 1 or 2 extra kills when you don't.

 

But yes, it *is* annoying, I give you that. You don't need to use colored dice though, takes probably longer to grab those than just quickly rolling 5x3 dice.

 

There is a way to go about playing by the rules. If by playing by the rules your opponent questions close to every action, requires you to show him in the rulebook(s) + FAQ, 4-6 different things by turn 2... then I think it's turned into a problem and the rules have sucked the fun out of the game. If it's a casual game, and both players are fine with picking up 15 dice, then picking up 5 misses, great. If it's a casual game, and the opponent doesn't specifically say you can do that, no big deal, it's 5 dudes. During a Tournament, no question, just roll each separately so that if you win you know you did it in the fairest way possible.

 

On that note, if your opponents are like-minded, and some rules just don't make sense, play it however the hell you want. You all paid the money for the plastic, spent your time painting, and are most likely spending a majority of your day off to play the game, so I think that's a hefty enough price to pay which should allow both players to play any rule any way they want to. Screw what the internet and peanut gallery say! Remember when units could intertwine and everything got a 4+ cover save? That was INSANE. Seriously, imagine it in your head for a moment. Vindicator fires a massive shell into a completely open field where 20 Marines stand. Thankfully they had been standing just so that everyone could jump in front of everyone (it's a Christmas Miracle!) and the only thing damaged was the field. That's a prime example of when it's time for better judgement and the sense of the regular player to look straight at the WAAC/RAW players and say "you're going to look me in the face right now and tell me every one of those guys lived? Here, let me just make you feel good now "YOU WIN!" -- unfortunately it takes specifically worded FAQs to get some of these guys (the loud minority) to come around. ::Descend soapbox::

 

I personally just pick up 3 dice, point at each guy as I'm rolling, and go from there. I don't feel like it takes more than an additional 10-15 seconds total. It generally wins a bit of rapport with your opponent too - it does suck getting charged by 4-5 power weapons with re-rolls and 2+ armor!

[shortysl]

The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

You can't cheat while hiding behind 'the most important rule is to have fun'.

 

If that's your attempt at calling me a cheat, i'd advise you to read the rest of my post. I don't play Blood Angels, it's not me who gets the re-rolls and so i'm not hiding behind anything am i? No one plays 40k to the letter of every rule, because many of them are open to interpretation, and that was my interpretation of the situation (which, you'll note, i'm entitled to). There are moderators to judge the quality of my posts, I was simply offering the OP my opinion, as was asked for.

[breng77]

I really like how lots of people are arguing that rolling 15 dice and then re-rolling 5 misses is not a big difference than, Rolling 3 sets of 5 dice and re-rolling 1 miss per set. While on the surface these should be statistically similar they are not at all the same. Statisically Re-rolling 5 misses means that you hit 11.25 times, or 75% of the time. Odds say that you will always get your 5 re-rolls Re-rolling 1 miss per model means that 75% of the time is the best you'll ever get, but it is not automatic. Statisically you hit 7.5 times with your first roll (so lets say 8 for ease of this example.)

 

Now that could be 4 guys hitting 2 times, and one guy missing 3 times, at which point you get all 5 re-rolls. However, it is just as likely that it will be 2 guys hitting 3 times, one guy hitting twice, and 2 guys not hitting. At which point you only get 3 ro-rolls, and probably hit 1 more time (since I gave the +.5 earlier, we'll deduct it here.) SO that is 9 hits, or only 60%). That is possibly (within the statisical odds) a difference of 15%. There are also scenarios where maybe you hit 9 times and 2 guys miss all of their attacks, if you re-roll 5 vs 2 that is a big difference.

[Brother Chris]

In general remember 40K is a skirmish wargame and the figures are individuals. I'm keen to see how individual figures 'perform' and that is how the rules are written. But, to get a sense of perspective, the game is about fun and if you want a fast game with loads of dice being rolled together and more casualties then I can't see much of a problem with the house-rule you are suggesting. Houserules will work for both players. There are lightning claws and master crafted weapons and doubtless other things in different codexes which would work in the same way. If you can't agree on houserules, then back to the rules as written.

[breng77]

I'm by no way saying that you could not house rule the MC rule to X re-rolls per squad where X is the number of master crafted weapons in that squad. I'm just saying that if you plan on playing beyond that house rule environment, it is important to consider that the difference is not a small thing.

[SnorriSnorrison]

This issue was errata'd, or am I completely wrong here? I thought there was an official GW errata regarding master-crafted weapons in which it said that you could re-roll one die per master-crafted weapon in the squad to speed up the game - so 5 re-rolls for SG total.

 

I could be wrong on this. However, I believe that I saw it in an official GW pdf file. Can't find it, though.

 

 

 

Snorri

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow it's not that hard to roll each set of attacks separately.

 

* rolls eyes *

 

G :(

 

This issue was errata'd, or am I completely wrong here? I thought there was an official GW errata regarding master-crafted weapons in which it said that you could re-roll one die per master-crafted weapon in the squad to speed up the game - so 5 re-rolls for SG total.

 

I could be wrong on this. However, I believe that I saw it in an official GW pdf file. Can't find it, though.

 

 

 

Snorri

 

 

 

You are wrong.

 

G

[Zhukov]

The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

You can't cheat while hiding behind 'the most important rule is to have fun'.

 

If that's your attempt at calling me a cheat, i'd advise you to read the rest of my post. I don't play Blood Angels, it's not me who gets the re-rolls and so i'm not hiding behind anything am i? No one plays 40k to the letter of every rule, because many of them are open to interpretation, and that was my interpretation of the situation (which, you'll note, i'm entitled to). There are moderators to judge the quality of my posts, I was simply offering the OP my opinion, as was asked for.

Would have been nice if you quoted my 2nd sentence too, cause my wording wasn't nearly as direct as you make it out to be now.

 

But yeah, it is cheating if you actually insist on playing it like that :lol: And saying your oppenent lacks sportmanship if he disagrees with you comes pretty close to insisting.

[shortysl]

The most important rule of 40k is that both players enjoy the game and, while it may be strictly in the word of the rules that you roll five lots of dice, it strikes me that the OP's opponent is a poor loser and is afraid of the Sanguinary Guard. Demanding that each model rolls their attacks individually just draws the game out unneccesarily.

You can't cheat while hiding behind 'the most important rule is to have fun'.

 

If that's your attempt at calling me a cheat, i'd advise you to read the rest of my post. I don't play Blood Angels, it's not me who gets the re-rolls and so i'm not hiding behind anything am i? No one plays 40k to the letter of every rule, because many of them are open to interpretation, and that was my interpretation of the situation (which, you'll note, i'm entitled to). There are moderators to judge the quality of my posts, I was simply offering the OP my opinion, as was asked for.

Would have been nice if you quoted my 2nd sentence too, cause my wording wasn't nearly as direct as you make it out to be now.

 

But yeah, it is cheating if you actually insist on playing it like that :) And saying your oppenent lacks sportmanship if he disagrees with you comes pretty close to insisting.

 

Oh it was exactly as direct as it looks. I am not, and never will be, a cheat. Simple as that. Nor have i said an opponent is unsporting if they disagree with me. I voiced an opinion on the OP's opponent but that's it. The fact that my regular gaming opponent and I choose to interpret the rule differently is a choice that we're entitled to make.

 

Again, the OP asked for opinions on this matter. I gave mine. That's the nature of these forums. You're entitled to your opinion too; if you choose to play it on an individual model basis then great, that obviously works for you, but don't call me a cheat for making an interpretation.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would just say you are playing that rule incorrectly.

 

G :)

[shortysl]

I would just say you are playing that rule incorrectly.

 

G :)

 

That's fair comment, i have no problem with that.

Maybe i'll discuss the situation with my mate and who knows, we might change the way we play it but for now, we play it our way.

[Zhukov]

I gave mine. That's the nature of these forums. You're entitled to your opinion too;

Yes and my opinion is that your opinion is the world upside down. Normally cheaters are the ones who are called bad losers or poor sports, you do it exactly the other way and call somebody who plays the rules correctly a bad loser.

 

I'm simply quoting you and trying to show you how biased your opinion is, although I can imagine it's tough when you get confronted with that. Would have been easier if you just said "Yeah, should have thought twice before saying that".

 

 

Nowhere did I say that people can't decide to houserule or anything. Nowhere did I say that everybody must play by the rules.

[shortysl]

I gave mine. That's the nature of these forums. You're entitled to your opinion too;

Yes and my opinion is that your opinion is the world upside down. Normally cheaters are the ones who are called bad losers or poor sports, you do it exactly the other way and call somebody who plays the rules correctly a bad loser.

 

I'm simply quoting you and trying to show you how biased your opinion is, although I can imagine it's tough when you get confronted with that. Would have been easier if you just said "Yeah, should have thought twice before saying that".

 

 

Nowhere did I say that people can't decide to houserule or anything. Nowhere did I say that everybody must play by the rules.

 

It's not your job to try and show me anything. I didn't opine on the OP's opponent because of the way he played the rule, I opined on him because of the fact that he demanded it. While we're at it, everyone's opinion is biased, that's the nature of an opinion. If I had thought I'd made a mistake in saying it, I would have admitted it. I don't, therefore I won't.

 

This discussion has gone wildly off topic anyway so I don't believe it's appropriate any longer in this forum. For my part, I won't be contributing to this particluar discussion anymore.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Because you're wrong?...