Grey knights ruining my day

[undeadsoldier]

Hey everyone, been awhile since I posted on B&C,

 

I have been having trouble againsts grey knights! FNP goes a long way against there shooting but the power weapons, warpquake, psydreads, psychic defense and HALBERDS are killing me. Some lists I stomp like dread spam/acolyte spam, but lists with paladins and big purifiers smash my aggressive list. I could play less aggressively but its just really not that fun...anyways I ussually use mephiston or sanguinor or librarian 2x ten man ras with meltas and a fist. sometimes a couple ras in las plas, 2 stormravens, dc and dc dread, furioso dread, honor guard with meltas, a vanguard squad and sometimes some sanguinary guard. This list is sadly not optimized like some of my other armies so is really only fun against fluffy lists. Any tips on playing grey knights with BA?

 

Here is a picture of my army as well, it was at armies on parade in chicago if anyone got to go:

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-leDeqm9s1Wo/TkOL...00/DSCN1925.JPG

 

Help would be very much appreciated,

 

Thanks,

 

Keith

[bushman101]

Tactical and sternguard go a long ways to clearing out halberd toting GKs. If bolters aren't your style, Baals and Devs are a good option

[Mezkh]

Furiosos are pretty boss against them :lol:

[Leonaides]

so your fun fluffy list doesnt do well against gk's...congratulations, now you know what other armies feel like when they come up against you... Just the gk's do it better. I'd suggest, if you dont want to change your list, start over-estimating how many marines you'll need to kill them, attack their flanks so there is limited come-back when you take out one of their units, try to wipe them out in 1 round of combat instead of hoping for it to last their turn too...

[shortysl]

so your fun fluffy list doesnt do well against gk's...congratulations, now you know what other armies feel like when they come up against you...

 

This. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but it's truly heartening to hear a Blood Angels player say they're having trouble.

 

I have no personal experience playing against the new Grey Knight codex yet but i've always been an advocate of weight of fire against Marine armies of many types. I've seen a few mentions of taking squads armed with Bolters to thin out the numbers before you hit them; i'd second this. It's a tactic i regularly employ as a Dark Angels player and while it may not sound very Blood Angel-like you have to remember that Blood Angels aren't stupid; they might prefer close combat but they will still adapt their tactics to prevail against powerful opponents.

[BigBaals]

I've never won against Grey Knights - ever. Our resident GK player won the 'Ard Boyz Semi-Finals though, so I don't feel bad about that. Halbreds + Wound Allocation + 3++, FNP, and Draigo just win. The only person I know who's come close to winning was a Dark Eldar player who spent the majority of the game just staying more than 24" from him if he could.

 

I know dual Librarians are a competitive must have against GK. Furioso's seemed to be target number one also, so they are probably a must have. Other than that, I'd maybe suggest doing what BA do best - stick to a single flank and try to take the rest of the army out of the game by denying them the ability to do much to you until you're ready for them.

[undeadsoldier]

I just hate that I took so much time making this army and it is very much a rock paper scissor army. I lose against meched up armies or an army with massed autocannons. Blah I never thought my army was very competative, only armies I ever stomped was tau :P I also play grey knights but I have had them way before I played blood angels. It just seems like so many armies are unbalanced that I seem to make, other than grey knights and imperial guard. Tacticals might be a good option but I also have a death guard army so it wuold almost be the same thing just worse. It really sucks GW does this.

I know some people have big problems with BA but In all my battles it seems like I am always shooting for a draw, with grey knights and guard I feel like I have the tools to win. I really enjoy Blood angels but it just seems that in standard missions it is real hard against people who almost all play GK.

 

Anyways, so far we have a couple of tactics:

 

Strong flank assault to minimize casualties. Meaning ill probably have to choose to go second. If the opponent has strike squads or interceptors ill probably start on the board.

 

Tacticals> assault marines. A couple of people have advocated this. The problem I see is that GK have better range while moving and short range autocannons that are assault weapons :) What weapons do you guys prefer? plasma cannons and melta gun? Maybe a combi-melta for the sarge.

Do you combat squad or throw them all in a rhino? Personally I have seen many marine players not combat squad and it seems pointless since they are lot of point for what they actually do.

 

Sternguard are also an option which are pretty mean with combi-meltas/ meltaguns. Rhinos or drop pods? I have been trying to run a hybrid list with about half mech, but perhaps I need to go full mech or not at all.

 

Devs with missle launchers I have found to be pretty good, except in dawn of war when they start off the board they seem much less effective then.

 

I have used baals with assault cannons and they are kind of underwhelming, to pop a tank you really have to rely on luck. Has anyone had success with flamecannon ones? seems like they might be good against small grey knight squads.

 

Dreadnoughts are something that I really like to use, in theory I also love storm ravens. Sometimes the ravens have done amazing things, other times they die like they are made of paper leaving my dreads out in the open. This especially sucks with death company and death company dread. Against grey knights it just seems like the death company plain sucks. Even with lemartes they just die. So many cheap power weapons ruins stuff. Which leads me to think maybe using drop pods might be better? Which will either work or they will just die first turn...

 

Has anyone had much success againts GK? Maybe you could give me a sample list you find effective.

 

Thanks!

[Brother Nathan]

ive played knights twice now, and result is ive tabled them twice. not that id normally expect that against them. simply put dont firght a fair fight. one on one they will slaughter anything you can throw at you. your main advantage is speed. agaist a termy squad with commander guy i used 2 full assault squads and mepheston as well as softening up said squad with firepower. sure they hit faster than us at init 6 and if they get hammerhand they hit as hard(dont forget psycic hoods!) as us on the charge. thing is they die as easily as any other marine when you hit them. also grey knights dont like fast vindicators...

[spec.ops]

Max RAS w/ Max Melta + Max Attack Bikes w/ Melta

 

Its the answer to everything.

 

Pop the Psy Dreads and attack the flanks with everything you got while reducing the chances of engaging the main element.

 

Now, I would think a Furioso can really help, but if you are bringing a Furioso you will have to bring a SR. If you bring a SR you might as well bring a death star...

 

Otherwise you will have to build a gun line army - yawn.

 

IG anyone?

[undeadsoldier]

Most of my armies play very aggressively, I agree the ig gunline = yawn. My ig is in your face with lots of melta easily killing knights. By playing with grey knights and guard I have really found my BA army to be lacking in the troop department. Fast transports are great and all but by moving fast I am just getting in range of more guns. I really wish rhino rush was still alive... How awesome would it be to move 18" then assault 6" out of a rhino. Assault marines with packs just seem to expensive, and with only two meltaguns per squad I find that I have trouble relying on them. I might just sell them..I dont really find it fun getting stomped by armies that I play against all the time.

[bushman101]

Strong flank assault to minimize casualties. Meaning ill probably have to choose to go second. If the opponent has strike squads or interceptors ill probably start on the board.

 

Tacticals> assault marines. A couple of people have advocated this. The problem I see is that GK have better range while moving and short range autocannons that are assault weapons :lol: What weapons do you guys prefer? plasma cannons and melta gun? Maybe a combi-melta for the sarge.

Do you combat squad or throw them all in a rhino? Personally I have seen many marine players not combat squad and it seems pointless since they are lot of point for what they actually do.

 

 

I have used baals with assault cannons and they are kind of underwhelming, to pop a tank you really have to rely on luck. Has anyone had success with flamecannon ones? seems like they might be good against small grey knight squads.

I think saying that tact>assault is too strong a statement. They just do different things well. And its not that assault is bad versus GK, they just don't do well against power weapon toting marines going at I6.

I prefer to drop pod my bolter marines. Find a nice isolated corner without any CC monsters and let them shoot away.

 

I tend to use my Baals to clear heavy infantry. If I go after any vehicles, its usually transports (armor 10 or 11).

 

In short, concentrate your ranged attacks on their halberd marines (and termis). Send the assaults on their shoot.

 

Hope this helps

[shortysl]

I might just sell them..I dont really find it fun getting stomped by armies that I play against all the time.

 

No one does, but part of the fun of the game is developing new tactics to defeat those armies. I have been playing my Dark Angels against my friend's Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers for 13 years now and the win/loss ratio is definitely in his favour. The solution is not to sell the army, it's to refine your tactics. You may not want the yawn inspiring gunline but the fact is that you may have to compromise some of your assault ability for additional firepower.

 

You need to weigh combats heavily in your favour because of course Grey Knights are incredible in an assault. If that means Bolters then what's wrong with that?

 

You're an Astartes; adapt to the situation.

[Atlantic]

I've been fiddling around with your standard Librarian and an Honour Guard Squad entirely composed of Plasma Guns. They are pretty nasty against GK, especially when given a las/plas razorback.

 

My usual tactic is to support them with Mephiston. I'll move 6 inches, disembark the squad and shoot everything. (4 rapid firing plasma guns, the rback las cannon, the rback twin linked rapid fire plasma gun, The Librarian's Blood Lance, and Mephiston's plasma pistol.) That usually makes a pretty serious dent. Mephiston's obligatory charge will usually settle the rest.

 

I'm a big fan of Multi Melta Attack Bikes as well. I never run less than 4 of them. If your opponent is doing the Draigo / Paladin wound allocation stuff, Melta + Plasma is really the way to go.

[Sanguinarian]

I might just sell them..I dont really find it fun getting stomped by armies that I play against all the time.

 

No one does, but part of the fun of the game is developing new tactics to defeat those armies. I have been playing my Dark Angels against my friend's Blood Angels/Flesh Tearers for 13 years now and the win/loss ratio is definitely in his favour. The solution is not to sell the army, it's to refine your tactics. You may not want the yawn inspiring gunline but the fact is that you may have to compromise some of your assault ability for additional firepower.

 

You need to weigh combats heavily in your favour because of course Grey Knights are incredible in an assault. If that means Bolters then what's wrong with that?

 

You're an Astartes; adapt to the situation.

 

By definition, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. That is not what Astartes do, let alone Blood Angels. Take it from the many BA only commanders here when we say that you cannot play BA the same as you play your GK or your DG. We have different strengths, namely speed, which doesn't always mean forward speed to get into suicidal assault. It also means controlled displacement ie moving away to a better firing position until you are guaranteed the victory in combat ie Draigo alone vs. a DC Dread, DC w/PWs, Termies of your own, SC + HG, multiple Tacs, etc.

 

In my group of guys, we almost always Draw or Minor Victory either way when I play aggressive like traditional BA tend to do, and that's against Ork Mech/Dredd spam, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves. I guarantee myself a Massacre against any of the above when I castle in a corner and let them break against my AV 13+ Mech wall. That gets boring, so I tend to go aggressive 9/10 times just for the FUN factor, but at the same time changing tactics each and every time. If you change your tactics and the opposing player changes theirs, that's a three-fold change and should always have a different outcome.

 

Also, playing the same boring Meat Grinder mission adds to the snore-factor! Randomize Missions, Levels, Terrain and even swap armies to get the flavor of something different. I just saw a Battle Report on boobtube and saw that they incorporated the LotR roll for 1st each turn!?! Duh!!! Why hadn't I ever done that? Imagine getting 2 or even 3 1st turns in a row!?! ;) :jaw: :eek

 

And PS, I saw your display at Chicago GameDay and left a :P spot on the floor!!! With two Ravens w/Dreads and RAS or Tacs, 2 LasPlasBacks w/RAS or Tacs or Devs, Bike Squad, Baal, Pred, Vindicator, Land Speeder, etc. you have everything you need to wreak havoc on anyone. Except for deep-striking Land Raiders!?! :eek:

[spec.ops]

Most of my armies play very aggressively, I agree the ig gunline = yawn. My ig is in your face with lots of melta easily killing knights. By playing with grey knights and guard I have really found my BA army to be lacking in the troop department. Fast transports are great and all but by moving fast I am just getting in range of more guns. I really wish rhino rush was still alive... How awesome would it be to move 18" then assault 6" out of a rhino. Assault marines with packs just seem to expensive, and with only two meltaguns per squad I find that I have trouble relying on them. I might just sell them..I dont really find it fun getting stomped by armies that I play against all the time.

 

Add a decked out priest to your RAS, plus give your SGT an IP.

 

Example:

Priest: JP + PW + IP

RAS: 2x Melta

-SGT: PF + IP

 

Or

 

Priest: JP + Combi-Melta

RAS: 2x Melta

-SGT: TH

 

I prefer the top one, but the bottom one gives you some extra points to add more bikes.

[Bartali]

This list is sadly not optimized like some of my other armies so is really only fun against fluffy lists. Any tips on playing grey knights with BA?

 

In all seriousness, play with a good list ?

[Morticon]

whats the actual list , matey?

[undeadsoldier]

Wellll, I am currently deployed in afghanistan so dont have my list but roughly it is:

 

Mephiston

 

honor guard with jp's 4x melta

 

jump priest with p weapon

 

2x 10 man ras with fist 2x melta

 

3x ras 5 man w/ flamer with las/plas razorbacks

 

furioso with frag cannon/ h flamer

 

small deathcompany with lemartes

 

deathcompany dread with talons

 

baal pred or bikers with priest and 2x melta

 

2x stormravens w/mm and assault cannon and extra armor

 

sometimes a vindicator or

 

devastators with 4 x missle lauchers

 

Now dont get me wrong I rarely lose with this list, but I find I mostly only tie. I play against a lot of "optimized" spammy lists or just randoms joes that arent very good (which I consistently beat these folks), the spammy lists are the ones I have trouble againts. DE spams kills me, orks hurt pretty bad. I really just dont have long range firepower, GK do. They also come with tons of power weapons. I really am just trying to do something different with the angels, I have guard with tons of tanks and I just feel that GK do spammy lists better. I just really dont see how the speed of the list really helps it, perhaps I need to go with the more boyz over toys ideal. 3x baals might be a good start, I have found scouting to be really great. Really havent been a fan of devastators either. I am probably the most unlucky person to play mephiston as well, I can fail saves on that guy like it is my job! Anyways Im loving the help so far. More help would be greatly appreciated!

[Morticon]

At first glance I think you're reasonably solid. Around 2500 points though, yeh? Running quite a bit over- but I assume youre listing everything as opposed to the specific list.

 

Im wanting to say that you're lacking consistent long range firepower.

 

The Ravens are great, but usually quite focused (in the sense that there are a bunch of shots going to one target for the most part). Personally, I'd consider getting twin las on them for turbo boosting, side shooting action.

After that, Id consider maybe getting at the very least one twin las for your razors- maybe two.

Then, id look to investing in Attack Bikes- theyre worth their Power Armoured weight in gold.

 

The reason I make these suggestions, are cause BA are usually quite adept at taking out infantry. Furiosos and Talon dreads do exceptionally well at this- as do FC RAS squads supported by other guys.

But, you need to maintain your mobility, and your power to strike where YOU want to and when YOU want to.

Having the enemy dictating this by downing your birds, and then taking out your long range support means big trouble.

The added consistent and reliable firepower (twin linked high strength or added value of AP1!) means that youre likely to take out those horrible Dreads. Also, the consistent hits of 2xT4 means Pallies etc are taking instant kill wounds. Same goes for DE and other meched up armies. More reliable High strength firepower means higher chances of consistently doing damage.

 

Id consider looking into making your DC more effective. They are such an incredible unit.

If you're completely sold on Lemmy, then all good. He's solid and no contest. But, I'm a bigger fan of a standard DC in Rhino. I dont like overloading Ravens (ie: squad + dread). Its three high priority targets in one nest, meaning your enemy has his target priority cut out for him. So rather have a third unit speeding towards him and make him sweat his choices.

 

Also, hows the frag dread working out for you? Would you consider a Talon Dread instead?

[undeadsoldier]

I have used him as a talon dread before, I have found the frag cannon to be really useful though! It goes against what most people think but 3 templates really mess up small squads. I think I have probably got better returns from the frag cannon then from my death company dread. I just dont ever seem to roll very good to keep getting more wounds. I know I definaitely want to keep the death company and dc dread just because it gives the army flavor. I suppose I do need to get more relaible long range fire power. I really wish the ravens were in the fast attack slot. Has anyone used flamecannon baals before? I think they could be really good at cleaning up small squads like devestators on the first turn.

[Morticon]

Has anyone used flamecannon baals before? I think they could be really good at cleaning up small squads like devestators on the first turn.

 

I used to use em, but found they were one hit wonders. Almost always died first turn after use B)

Im tempted to play 2 of them though- for high target priority conflict with the enemy!

[DrummingBerserker21]

I can second Morticon's suggestion about using 2 Flamestorm Baal's. I used them once in a game against a buddy of mine (1500 pts) with 3/ Lasplas razorbacks, 1 autocannon Lascannon predator, 2 small Devastator squads, and Mephiston. Those 2 Flamestorms devoured a terminator squad as well as a rhino and a tactical squad. One will usually get killed next turn, two means they annihilate the squad and force your opponent to choose between multiple dangerous targets.

[librisrouge]

You can shoot as well as Space Marines and have better dreads. Dreads counter most of the Grey Knight's strength in melee ("That's right, you go at Init 6...AND DO NOTHING! BWAHAHAHA") and Grey Knights have little advantages against being shot.

 

Even if you do favor the Frag Cannon (so do I) don't worry. Just be prepared for that guy to have to get into melee after shooting (if anything survives) especially if you can charge Paladins.

[Something Wycked]

Dreads counter most of the Grey Knight's strength in melee ("That's right, you go at Init 6...AND DO NOTHING! BWAHAHAHA")

I disagree; Grey Knights counter most of the Dreads' strength in melee. S10 Thunder Hammers (or S10 Hammers with 2d6 penetration if there's a Libby along for the ride) will ruin a Dread's day.

 

Grey Knights have little advantages against being shot.

Too true. Shoot them first to weaken them, and then charge the leftovers.

 

In other words, @OP: bring a balanced army. You don't need a gun line, but don't go 100% assault either.