Everybody does Kung-Fu fighting

[Greyall]

We've talked about each and every Primarch's 'Winning Factor', their strengths and weaknesses. But the thought occurred to me while sketching Leman Russ, that - to my knowledge - we don't really know each Primarch's fighting style. Of course, by 'fighting style' I mean the one used in duels. On the battlefield, most Primarchs just hack left and right.

 

Angron: Gladiator style (with a variety of weapons), very technical and made for efficiency. All the more dangerous due to Angron's relentlessness.

 

Sanguinius: Sanguinius is a hard nut to crack, gains a lot of mobility with those two wings, basically granting him an additional axis to evade and strike. So, while his style would likely be similar to those of european knights of the crusades wielding greatswords, I'm sure he'd incorporate a lot of movement into the fight, especially against brawlers like Curze, against whom wielders of large weapons tend to far badly.

 

Curze: The same brawler whether fighting a mob or a Primarch, just let it rip. Against single targets, the 'fear factor' would probably translate into underhanded strikes.

 

Dorn: We know little about Dorn, even his weapons of choice are left to specculation. Assuming the 'Bolter and Chainsword' configuration, which makes sense since he's seen as the ultimate soldier, he'd probably be a 'by the book' duelist, maximizing efficiency with both weapons to keep more skilled opponents constantly weary of a shot to the face. It's plausible to assume he'd know a good few fighting styles and was adept at employing them according to his foe.

 

Guilliman: Same as Dorn, the way I see it, which isn't bad by any means. I can see him playing on the defensive, goading an opponent into creating an opening.

 

Lorgar: A Primarch is a Primarch, so mediocrity isn't an option, but Lorgar is probably as close as it gets - in Primarch terms, this means he'd still be awesome. Using a heavy hammer means he'd likely try to maximize damage with each blow. Conventional fighting style, I'd say, and I fully assume my knowledge is insufficient to name it.

 

Jaghatai Khan: This guy, I think, would be a true savage whether he was dueling or plowing through a battleline. Assuming he'd use a chain-tulwar, he'd probably give no breathing room to his opponent. Expect lighting attacks and reflexes, this chap would be a whirlwind of strikes, and maybe prone to less efficient, pain-inducing blows, being the cruel warlord he was.

 

Vulkan: In Forgotten Sons, Vulkan is said to be far from the top tier, as far as weapon-skill is concerned, but having immense strength. Makes sense, and he'd surely struggle in a duel, especially against faster foes. That being said, stamina and strength count for a lot, enduring attacks and blows to create an opening or pressing on his opponent to throw him off-balance (you try and block a hammer stike). After that, one blow is all it takes. He's a smart one, too, so I'm sure he knows his limits, which makes him all the more dangerous.

 

Ferrus: Basically the same as Vulkan, as far as 'stats' go, but he'd probably take a more offensive approach. Would still have a hard time against true duelists, but he's bound to be well versed in different weapons.

 

Fulgrim: A true master duelist, his fight with Ferrus show how well he can deflect sword strikes with a massive hammer. Even though he might lack ferocity, I'm sure his technique is second to none, especially with a sword. He'd be equally at home on the offensive or goading an opponent into some mistake. I can see him employing that chinese shortsword style (minus the acrobacy), spinning, stabbing and lashing with his sword lightning-fast, but he's surely a master in employing multiple techniques.

 

Horus: A hard one to describe, yet incredibly dangerous. Not only would he be a master of several techniques, which would also give him an edge in countering opponents employing them, but Horus' also the best at overpowering and exploiting weaknesses. Expect him to use all he can in a fight, throwing knee strikes and punches, barging into opponents, etc. He just wants to win, he has nothing to prove (unless proving something is winning).

 

Magnus: About the same as Lorgar, as far as close combat is concerned (with a staff or blade), but with the advantage of having no self-esteem issues, which gives him initiative and momentum. No issues whatsoever with employing his sorcery in a duel, and that gives him a tremendous edge. In fact, his melee is probably designed to keep his opponent at a distance and unable to interrupt his magical attacks. No wonder Russ was sent to fight him, either you keep this guy off-balance or a moment is all it takes for him to make your flesh eat you. The longer the fight, the worse it'll go for an opponent.

 

Alpharius/Omegon: No clues here, but I'm willing to bet my little finger underhanded tactics would be included in a duel with one of these. They'd likely just plant a bomb at the duelling grounds and blow the opponent from a distance (not criticizing, here).

 

Perturabo: If he's anything like his Legion, he'll mix efficiency with well-timed ferocity. Probably akin to Vulkan, in that he'd try and maximize each blow.

 

The Lion: If you want a zweihander wielder, this is your guy. He must've been a wonder to watch and, technically, I don't know who could've topped him - we're talking about a heavy weapon which is in no way supposed to be fast, yet he makes it so. El'Jonson makes short work of Curze in a few moments, but that leads us to the gap in his fighting style: he's prone to relish a fight too much and prove his superiority, instead of finishing the work pronto. Also, he has a hard time dealing with less honourable, underhanded styles. Basically, if he wants to kill you, he will, but kick him in the nuts and you've got yourself an opening. So, traditional knight/crusader style - preferably on the offensive - like Sanguinius, but with peak technique.

 

Russ: The guy that started this thread. He's seen as a viking Lord of sorts, majestic in his savagery. But I imagine him to be like Wolverine in combat, going on the offensive at all costs. Technique is there, definitely, but an opponent would almost forget it amongst the flurry of blows Russ would throw at him. If this description seems dimishing, then you're not thinking in Primarch-scale. It's mentioned several times how the Space Wolves have to keep their savagery in check. Imagine, then, the huge 'energy' release when Russ was unleashed, we're talking about something so fast and unpredictable as to have no pattern to it, being - how then, do you counter that? A bout between Russ and Angron would be something marvellous, I'm sure.

 

State your mind, then, how do you picture the Primarchs fighting?

[Grimdarkness]

Sanguinius: Sanguinius is a hard nut to crack, gains a lot of mobility with those two wings, basically granting him an additional axis to evade and strike. So, while his style would likely be similar to those of european knights of the crusades wielding greatswords, I'm sure he'd incorporate a lot of movement into the fight, especially against brawlers like Curze, against whom wielders of large weapons tend to far badly.

 

I don,t see the great sword maybe more the rapier a more elegant blade.

 

The rest are pretty spot on IMO.

[Son of Rawl]

Pretty good list dude. You missed Corax though ;)

[Týr]

Russ: The guy that started this thread. He's seen as a viking Lord of sorts, majestic in his savagery. But I imagine him to be like Wolverine in combat, going on the offensive at all costs. Technique is there, definitely, but an opponent would almost forget it amongst the flurry of blows Russ would throw at him. If this description seems dimishing, then you're not thinking in Primarch-scale. It's mentioned several times how the Space Wolves have to keep their savagery in check. Imagine, then, the huge 'energy' release when Russ was unleashed, we're talking about something so fast and unpredictable as to have no pattern to it, being - how then, do you counter that? A bout between Russ and Angron would be something marvellous, I'm sure.

 

State your mind, then, how do you picture the Primarchs fighting?

 

I would disagree that the Vlka Fenryka keep their savagery in check. Their savagery is more something they put on as a mask.

The way they fight are like a hunter. Using tactic and cunning. But most of all they seek control of the battle at hand, and fight with their brain, more than their arms strenght.

But of course they will also be quite brutal once they get up really close and perosonal (like a true wolf).

I belive Russ would fight like that some of the way, but again it could be a mask to lure his enemy into a certain position.

In the end I guess he would adapt to his opponent, and seek out the most efficient way to bring him down, no matter what.

[Castiel]

Dorn: We know little about Dorn, even his weapons of choice are left to specculation. Assuming the 'Bolter and Chainsword' configuration, which makes sense since he's seen as the ultimate soldier, he'd probably be a 'by the book' duelist, maximizing efficiency with both weapons to keep more skilled opponents constantly weary of a shot to the face. It's plausible to assume he'd know a good few fighting styles and was adept at employing them according to his foe.

 

We know Dorn had a big chainsword from Flight of the Eisenstein.

 

I agree with Tyr, the Space Wolves are so much more than mindless savages.

 

And I think Sanguinius would have a more elegant blade than your description implies, I see him as being almost as good as Fulgrim on the perfection side, but with more mobility and more offensive.

 

Otherwise that sounds pretty spot on!

[Greyall]

The Blade Encarmine wasn't a rapier, that we know of. It was more akin to a greatsword, even if it wasn't that big.

 

Corax would be a more technical Curze, I think, but he was pretty aggressive.

 

On Russ, I stand by the more savage view. Of course he had the skills and technique, but look at his fight with Magnus, it's a brawl with swords, with punches flying around and such.

[Týr]

The Blade Encarmine wasn't a rapier, that we know of. It was more akin to a greatsword, even if it wasn't that big.

 

Corax would be a more technical Curze, I think, but he was pretty aggressive.

 

On Russ, I stand by the more savage view. Of course he had the skills and technique, but look at his fight with Magnus, it's a brawl with swords, with punches flying around and such.

 

I can see what you mean. But I belive the fight in "A Thousand Sons" dosen't cut it here. That battle was fuelled by the greatest sadness and anger. These emotions could easily make both Magnus and Russ throw everything away and just make them go for it. So I don't know how represantative that duel is. (but it's still awesome and great beyond words)

 

But I will allow you, to hold onto your view and let you live for now. After all it's nearly christmas.

[Captain Idaho]

People make a lot of assumptions on Primarchs based upon Legion sterotypes or personality traits.

 

Dorn and Guilliman I have a particular interest in with regards to this thread. People often assume their tactical acumen and flair for discipline translates directly to their fighting style, but this is an assumption based in part on a lack of insight to real fighting. I mean no offence, it certainly isn't shameful to have had little experience when fighting. But it's my only explanation as to why people would make these assumptions. If I'm wrong about why people make these assumptions then I apologise.

 

Anyway, it is entirely possible to be a rationale and intelligent being yet fight like a frenzied animal as personality is only loosely linked to fighting and we even use different parts of our brains for physical exertion and rationale etc. I for one am a deep thinking and intelligent individual (so says the British Army) yet I fight like a rabid animal and become uncontrollable in a fight.

 

I know people are going to say we don't have evidence of this side of neither Dorn nor Guilliman but I would dispute that, as the evidence of their fighting styles are there if you know where to look.

 

Dorn we know has an aggressive, relentless streak as can be seen when he goes after all Heretics in the aftermath of the Emperor's holy internment. We also know his chosen weapon was a giant, two handed chain-sword. There is no finess in such a weapon and we certainly won't see him being calculating and reserved with it.

 

Similarly, Guilliman chose to use the Gauntlets of Ultramar; a pair of fists used to bludgeon and tear enemies to death up close and very personally.

 

Primarches have a wide selection of weapons, so logically a Primarch could chose any weapon for the job. However, Dorn and Guilliman chose weapons which are so unusual in application they surely have little tactical value in selection.

 

In summary, I would suggest Dorn is a tenacious, relentless warrior or swings in unstoppable arks with a weapon designed to obliterate a target. Guilliman is likely a brawler, believe it or not.

 

:)

[Son of Rawl]

In summary, I would suggest Dorn is a tenacious, relentless warrior or swings in unstoppable arks with a weapon designed to obliterate a target. Guilliman is likely a brawler, believe it or not.

 

:)

 

I agree with this, it's also one of the main reasons why Know No Fear is on my high priority of must get books next year, bout time we see more of Robute, and where he actually got those Gauntlets to begin with.

 

Corax is an extremely able fighter, in all the engagements we have read, or heard with him in he just destroys everything he touches.

 

In Deliverance Lost he claims he would of killed both Lorgar and Curze but he would have died doing so, he also mentions he would be able to best Horus himself.

 

He also states in his audio drama he would not stand a chance against Angron.

 

[Billuriye]

In Deliverance Lost he claims he would of killed both Lorgar and Curze but he would have died doing so, he also mentions he would be able to best Horus himself.

 

He also states in his audio drama he would not stand a chance against Angron.

 

Winning against Horus yet losing to Angron ? Either he underestimates Horus or overestimates Angron.

[Sidewinder 3]

...I like your analysis, and I find it to be right "on target". :(

I have one more question for you..?? How do you envision the fighting style of the Big E ?.

[Hrvat]

Though it isn't much we know from the old "Lion and the Wolf" that Russ and Lion were equal. Lion was faster but Russ was stronger.

 

Angron was the best only Horus and Sanguinius might have been able to match him though Russ did smack Horus and Russ was equal to Lion so that puts a lot of questions.

[Billuriye]

Russ did smack Horus.

No he didn't. W40k wikia strikes again i guess.

[Hrvat]

Russ did smack Horus.

No he didn't. W40k wikia strikes again i guess.

 

I think it is mentioned in one of the Ragnar books, though I can't remember which of hand.

[Greyall]

I can see what you mean, Idaho, and I obviously made some raw assumptions.

 

But my guess that Dorn would be more technical when fighting isn't borne just from his Chapter's general demeanour (even though that's a reasonable indication), but rather from the 'facet' nature of each Primarch, the fact that, while they're human - therefore complex - they are also designed beings, conceived to reflect a part of their genefather - therefore a little less complex. Whatever traits each Primarch possesses are very heavily entrenched in their psyche, becoming somewhat absolutes.

 

Dorn is a very cold man - not devoid of emotion, but deeply logical. He is also shown to be very much aware of his strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure he knows how little he would last in a raving fight with some of his brethren - Curze's assault surely helped that.

 

PS: I took no offense to your assessment, mate, but I'm well aware of such dichotomies and complexities of the human mind. I myself try and walk the thin line of diplomacy, having managed not to lose face while being interventive whenever there's some sort of trouble brewing, but never having got into a fight. This comes precisely from the notion that I, as you, would become rabid once in a fight, the consequences making me a bit wary.

 

The internet makes it hard to convey tone, so I would hate if it seemed like I'm throwing barbs at you or those who fight, especially those in the military. It's a necessity, sometimes, and I know I'll have to do it someday, to defend my fiancé, myself or some other person. Please don't take it that way, Captain. Cheers.

 

Sorry for the personal insight, I just had to say something since it's a dear subject to me. Let's carry on.

 

@Sidewinder: It's hard to speak about the Big E, we've seen him clearing mobs of Orkz and fighting Horus, but the latter was an uninspired fight, from what accounts we have. He was in disbelief. My view, from what we know of the Emperor, is that he'd fight in the most effective manner according to each opponent. Of course, I'm admitting the Emperor fought an opponent who would present a challenge, which he probably didn't. I know it's a cliché, but to see him fight was probably witnessing the most perfect fighter alive.

[Skaltak]

I see Angron as a bit of a bare knuckle cage fighter - hold back and faint a few steps in an attempt to make the opponent flinch before rushing them and sending a flurry off different body shots to disorientat them before delivering the finishing blow. To onlookers it would seam as if he was trying to scare/intimidate his opponent then just beat the daylights out of them, in reality he is systematically picking apart his opponents defenses - a kick to the knee to take their balance and make them drop their guard, a head butt to blind them and bring their guard up to their face and open up their body, a gut punch to make them double over bringing their chin out, a huge upper cut to finish the job and shower him in blood. Systematical, brutal, violent, close & personal, and bloody... perfect pit fighting material.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Hvrat: Russ and Horus were about to come to blows when Big E stepped in to take the blow Leman intended for Horus. His Big E'ness stared in furious anger then Powergloved Russ (again) into a month long coma. -Wolf's Honor

 

I think we constantly underestimate Angron as this mindless brute. This is not some simple cage or pit fighter from antiquity but a Primarch raised as a slave in likely one of the most brutal spectacles of war imaginable. All the Primarchs are products of the worlds and upbringings they had; nature and nurture. While all Primarchs are literal gods of war most have talents outside of combat that set them apart. Even Russ and Curze have aspects; wolf pack and terror. Angron was born and bred for combat! It is his only aspect that he brings to the table we know of. Some people point to his rage and the Nail as a weakness but you have to look outside the normal paradigm. Angron saw the rage as an enhancement and not a detractor to his battle skill. If this device was a hinderance to his abilities as a warrior I think he would have taken them out. This is not the blind rage berzerkergang that we typically stereotype but a rage that enhances focus, precision and abilities all in order to land the killing blow. I do not think Angron is sentimental and would keep the Nails as defiance to his former masters or rule of cool. He broke his chains and went his own way.

 

Angron was raised in an intersolar slave trade station which had death matches likely against every type of dangerous lifeform imaginable. Imported Deathworld Scenario/flora/lifeforms while hunting a group of Exarchs? Anything could be possible. I would bet the Gladiators used weapons that went beyond simple daggers and swords and included some of the most exotic and advanced technology available. Angron was like a walking Codex Astartes of combat. He had likely faced a myriad of lifeforms in brutal techno-arenas as a child that the other Primarchs thought were wrought out of their nightmares the first time seeing them on Crusade with their Legions. Even the Deathworld Primarch's wouldnt have such an array of combatants with different styles, forms (limbs not styles :P ), shapes, sizes, tech levels, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Styles, precision, practice, skill, ability are all desirable in a champion. Angron was forced to live these things everyday in an artificial and brutal environment in which he was champion. No nurturing except for the bloodthirsty roar of onlookers, the rush of combat and victory. Even Curze had his chance at catharsis by creating a society of order from lightless chaos. Angron had his only chance at catharsis as a leader stolen by the Emperor; either a merciless victory against the pitiless slave-masters of his youth or an honorable death beside the only "good" men/women/aliens who had followed Angron in his uprising. Despite all this even modern Angron still maintains a code of honor giving props to Ulrik the Slayer, a Space Wolf who was kicking much Berserker butt during Angron's Crusade. Angron respects combat skill and ability of any type as it is the only thing he was raised to do and do well. And while Angron would have all the skill, science, ability in the world, the winner of a fight is the person/people left standing when the dust settles. This is the only paradigm Angron knows.

[Yogi]

Angron will be a stupid berzerker until I see him written differently. He is also the best one on one. This has also been written.

 

Angron is the Goliath the others have to apply thought to beat.

 

Also 40k is rule of cool and massive pauldrons. Thinking and being smart rarely helps in 40k. So Angron..

 

Until Jervis makes Lemon Russ the best.

[Heru]

A Primarch is missing from your list: Mortarion.

[Yogi]

A Primarch is missing from your list: Mortarion.

 

He had to call in sick.

[The Crimson Cartel]

A Primarch is missing from your list: Mortarion.

 

He had to call in sick.

 

;)

Well done

 

I think most of the list is spot on, with a few exceptions. I agree with a few of the others in regards to Sang,I see him using more of a quick one handed style. Also Corax does seem to destroy most everything with that whip of his.

 

I feel like I read somewhere that Alpharius beat Horus when they 1st met? So surely some true skill there , not just being pre-emptive sneaky sneaky..

 

Also, I.feel like all of the descriptions we have of Night Haunter so far are far after his decline.

Just my 2

 

-CC

[Greyall]

I think Mortarion would be on the lower end of the list, as far as skill goes, and it's hard to have employ a technique with a scythe. That being said, he's probably the epitome of maximizing damage with every strike. It's a scythe...as soon as that 1,5 metre blade pierces through an enemy, it'd likely be as good as dead.

 

For Corax, I assumed the twin Lightning Claws setup.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I can see what you mean, Idaho, and I obviously made some raw assumptions.

 

But my guess that Dorn would be more technical when fighting isn't borne just from his Chapter's general demeanour (even though that's a reasonable indication), but rather from the 'facet' nature of each Primarch, the fact that, while they're human - therefore complex - they are also designed beings, conceived to reflect a part of their genefather - therefore a little less complex. Whatever traits each Primarch possesses are very heavily entrenched in their psyche, becoming somewhat absolutes.

 

Dorn is a very cold man - not devoid of emotion, but deeply logical. He is also shown to be very much aware of his strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure he knows how little he would last in a raving fight with some of his brethren - Curze's assault surely helped that.

 

I think people read too much into the Curze and Dorn 'fight'.

 

I'm sure people have seen or heard of one man KO'ing another with just a punch? Bob happened to get the drop Jim, and Jim went down like a sack of potatoes.

 

Dorn went to speak to Curze. Yes, Dorn was mighty cross that Curze had besmirched the Emperor, but being angry with someone is different from expecting to start fighting at the drop of a hat. Even if Dorn intended on giving Curze a thrashing, Dorn obviously wasn't considering doing so from the get go, otherwise he would have walked up to Curze and greeted him with a head butt to the nose, right?

 

Yes, Curze totally pwned Dorn.

And?

 

Playing Space Marine, sometimes I get totally pwned, often when I am starting a session. But other times, I'm doing the pwning. But if we look at my first few games, we'd conclude that I was totally pathetic at SM, rather than average at it. And it is not like I am starting a game of SM wondering what the game involves or what the opposition's intentions are to me.

But that's not the real story.

 

I know it is all we have to base powa! levels from, but seriously, it's like glancing through an ajar door and then accurately concluding what the room is like. Not possible.

 

Also, whilst the Templars are of Sigismund, Sigismund is of Dorn, as were all those who got rolled into the Templar Chapter. Sigismund pwned at the Siege of Terra, and against Chaos buffed Marines. Whilst there is no solid connection between Dorn and Sigismund in terms of fighting talent, you'd think that how Sigismund and the Templars fight and have fought for 10K years would get a bit more of a say in how people rate Dorn as a fighter and what style he'd prefer, than some 5 minute encounter with Curze.

Right?

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts. :mellow:

 

We don't know how Dorn would fight. :)

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Kodanshi]

^ Dorn fan :P

 

But seriously, you’re right. Which makes the whole primarch vs primarch thing obsolete.

[Quixus]

Horus: A hard one to describe, yet incredibly dangerous. Not only would he be a master of several techniques, which would also give him an edge in countering opponents employing them, but Horus' also the best at overpowering and exploiting weaknesses. Expect him to use all he can in a fight, throwing knee strikes and punches, barging into opponents, etc. He just wants to win, he has nothing to prove (unless proving something is winning).

Exactly. I think the first duel between Lucius the not yet Eternal and Garviel Loken sums up the Luna Wolves' and thus Horus's fighting style pretty well.

Loken knew he could not match Lucius's skill. So before the swordfight, which should go on until the first blood was shed, even began Loken punched his opponent in the face and the nose started to bleed.

 

 

Alpharius/Omegon: No clues here, but I'm willing to bet my little finger underhanded tactics would be included in a duel with one of these. They'd likely just plant a bomb at the duelling grounds and blow the opponent from a distance (not criticizing, here).

At the very least in a duel they would team up. :P

 

@The Crimson Cartel: He did not beat Horus. He "only" infiltrated his flagship, with a bunch of unaugmented humans. When he was about to seize the bridge, they met and recognized one another for what they are.