Everybody does Kung-Fu fighting

[Mr. Sandbot]

In Deliverance Lost he claims he would of killed both Lorgar and Curze but he would have died doing so, he also mentions he would be able to best Horus himself.

 

He also states in his audio drama he would not stand a chance against Angron.

 

Winning against Horus yet losing to Angron ? Either he underestimates Horus or overestimates Angron.

 

That isn't necessarily the case. I mean, I've only got anecdotal evidence from martial art classes to back this up, but I don't think just because Corax thinks he can beat Horus but he knows he'll lose to Angron is totally out of the realm of possibility. After all, it's not unheard of for a slightly worse fighter to win against a better fighter and then lose to a worse one. On paper it sounds like one fighter should be able to beat another fighter every single time. But there are so many variables to take into account for a fight that this isn't always the case (this ranges from style and habits to simple luck).

 

If someone with more fight experience than I can correct me, I'd be more than grateful.

 

EDIT: k i quickly asked a friend of mine with way more experience in MMA sparring than me and he brought up the idea that it could be the way Corax fights that would give the way Horus fights trouble, but then it would suffer against the way Angron fights. Sorry if that sounded a tad confusing, I haven't slept yet.

[dustermaker]

In Deliverance Lost he claims he would of killed both Lorgar and Curze but he would have died doing so, he also mentions he would be able to best Horus himself.

 

He also states in his audio drama he would not stand a chance against Angron.

 

Winning against Horus yet losing to Angron ? Either he underestimates Horus or overestimates Angron.

 

That isn't necessarily the case. I mean, I've only got anecdotal evidence from martial art classes to back this up, but I don't think just because Corax thinks he can beat Horus but he knows he'll lose to Angron is totally out of the realm of possibility. After all, it's not unheard of for a slightly worse fighter to win against a better fighter and then lose to a worse one. On paper it sounds like one fighter should be able to beat another fighter every single time. But there are so many variables to take into account for a fight that this isn't always the case (this ranges from style and habits to simple luck).

 

If someone with more fight experience than I can correct me, I'd be more than grateful.

 

EDIT: k i quickly asked a friend of mine with way more experience in MMA sparring than me and he brought up the idea that it could be the way Corax fights that would give the way Horus fights trouble, but then it would suffer against the way Angron fights. Sorry if that sounded a tad confusing, I haven't slept yet.

 

in other words, rock, paper, scissors.

[Honda]

+++ If you have not read "Legion", then there are some potential spoilers below +++

 

 

I'd like to add some thoughts on Alpharius/Omegan.

 

1. Of all the chapters, they were picked for their duty because of their pragmatism. That suggests to me a style that isn't flamboyant, but uses the minimal amount of energy to accomplish the task.

 

2. Alpharius rather handily dresses down one of the famed Lucifer Blacks, known for their many skills, not the least is sword fighting.

 

3. In IA material, the AL are recognized for unconvential warfare, attacking from unexpected directions, and misdirection. We also know from the same material that the AL are very good with feints and bait and switch tactics.

 

Using the above points, it would seem to indicate that A/O would strike from unusual and/or unexpected angles, baiting their opponents with traps or setting them up so that they are subject to strikes that leave the opponent confused, thus allowing simple, straight forward killing blows to minimize the amount of time in an engagement. So, quick, unexpected attacks.

 

Now that I attempt to write it out, it seems a little more difficult to describe.

 

 

This has been a very interesting thread.

[The Crimson Cartel]

+++ If you have not read "Legion", then there are some potential spoilers below +++

 

 

I'd like to add some thoughts on Alpharius/Omegan.

 

1. Of all the chapters, they were picked for their duty because of their pragmatism. That suggests to me a style that isn't flamboyant, but uses the minimal amount of energy to accomplish the task.

 

2. Alpharius rather handily dresses down one of the famed Lucifer Blacks, known for their many skills, not the least is sword fighting.

 

3. In IA material, the AL are recognized for unconvential warfare, attacking from unexpected directions, and misdirection. We also know from the same material that the AL are very good with feints and bait and switch tactics.

 

Using the above points, it would seem to indicate that A/O would strike from unusual and/or unexpected angles, baiting their opponents with traps or setting them up so that they are subject to strikes that leave the opponent confused, thus allowing simple, straight forward killing blows to minimize the amount of time in an engagement. So, quick, unexpected attacks.

 

Now that I attempt to write it out, it seems a little more difficult to describe.

 

 

This has been a very interesting thread.

 

Ha! Alpharius... The finest Drunken Master in the Galaxy! :(

 

-CC

[Epistolary Exander]

+++ If you have not read "Legion", then there are some potential spoilers below +++

 

 

I'd like to add some thoughts on Alpharius/Omegan.

 

1. Of all the chapters, they were picked for their duty because of their pragmatism. That suggests to me a style that isn't flamboyant, but uses the minimal amount of energy to accomplish the task.

 

2. Alpharius rather handily dresses down one of the famed Lucifer Blacks, known for their many skills, not the least is sword fighting.

 

3. In IA material, the AL are recognized for unconvential warfare, attacking from unexpected directions, and misdirection. We also know from the same material that the AL are very good with feints and bait and switch tactics.

 

Using the above points, it would seem to indicate that A/O would strike from unusual and/or unexpected angles, baiting their opponents with traps or setting them up so that they are subject to strikes that leave the opponent confused, thus allowing simple, straight forward killing blows to minimize the amount of time in an engagement. So, quick, unexpected attacks.

 

Now that I attempt to write it out, it seems a little more difficult to describe.

 

 

This has been a very interesting thread.

 

I wouldnt necessarily trust all of those conclusions, in the Alpha Ligion IA it is said that he was not a twin & was of similiar height to horus. It also says that during the conflict between the Alpha Legion and the Ultramarines that both their primarchs met in combat where Alpharius stabbed Guilliman, while Guilliman did the same to Alpharius which happened to have killed him. Yet the source of this information is disputed in the IA due to the misinformation policy of the Alpha legion & considering the new evidence of Alpharius/ Omegon's combat abilities is limited and so contractictory that the only conclusion Id like to make is that if they could get out of duelling one of their brothers & disable their opponent by any means, they would do that.

[hendrik]

and it's hard to have employ a technique with a scythe.

that's why hector mayer hade made a complete

with it?

[Greyall]

His technique (and I'm not criticising, it's obvious) with a scythe was all about aiming it at the most vulnerable points. You'll notice that, with the smaller scythe, it was much more "complicated" and technical. What I meant was that a scythe doesn't provide as wide a "field" for falmboyance on a battlefield. What's with the tone, mate...?

[Kodanshi]

in the Alpha Ligion IA it is said that he was not a twin & was of similiar height to horus.

 

Though now in Gav Thorpe’s Deliverance Lost it is stated that Alpharius is, in fact, the smallest of the Primarchs. The descriptions of him fitting in seamlessly with other members of his Legion makes me conclude he could have been as small as an ordinary Space Marine!

[Culebras]

Perturabo: If he's anything like his Legion, he'll mix efficiency with well-timed ferocity. Probably akin to Vulkan, in that he'd try and maximize each blow.

 

Given his preference for siege warfare and his highly technical, analytical mind, I would imagine that Perturabo would view the duel as unnecessarily frivolous. In the Iron Cage incident, he basically avoided ever coming into a duel situation with Dorn, who was constantly frustrated by his foes dishonorable tactics. So, I see him as the enemy that fights briefly, only to withdraw and shoot an opponent from a distance, never letting himself get tied down and never charging in head on. In a duel, he is always standing on the high ground, making you fight towards him. Then, just when you think you have him, he pulls back again, forcing yourself to continually exert yourself.

 

Now that said, there was an interesting discussion in the Raven's Descent thread regarding him. It is implied that the Iron Warriors may have had reduced sensitivity to pain due to changes in the cell structure. They literally feel no pain. That would have an interesting effect on a duel because he could keep fighting by ignoring wounds.

[hendrik]

What's with the tone, mate...?

a misinterpretation of what you were saying; i thought you ment he would just be swinging it wildly without any technique, hoping to cleave some opponents in the progress :o a scythe actually is quite a usefullweapon since it can do all the basic needs, it can block, cleave and strike(not that the tip is sharp but i'm pretty sure a standard opponents digestive system would be pretty messed up if a primarch kicks you with a massive scythe in the belly). it just asks for a more sophisticated approach B)

[hendrik]

What's with the tone, mate...?

a misinterpretation of what you were saying; i thought you ment he would just be swinging it wildly without any technique, hoping to cleave some opponents in the progress :o a scythe actually is quite a usefullweapon since it can do all the basic needs, it can block, cleave and strike(not that the tip is sharp but i'm pretty sure a standard opponents digestive system would be pretty messed up if a primarch kicks you with a massive scythe in the belly). it just asks for a more sophisticated approach B)

[Greyall]

All good, mate. Well, a scythe can certainly perform the same functions as a staff, with the benefit of the giant blade, but it has massive balance issues due to weight distribution. Of course, a Primarch doesn't have as hard a time with a weapon's weight, but Mortarion would still be at a disadvantage in duels, especially against faster swordsmen and hammer-wielders, since the scythe is both too unyielding to keep up with a lighter weapon and too frail to block hammer blows. Unless, of course, he'd block with the blade, but since it's located at the tip, that's less than practical.

 

So while Mortarion wouldn't be limited to wild swings, keeping up pressure on the opponent by targetting vital areas with successive massive strikes would probably be his best strategy. Of course, like you say, mixing this with a few unorthodox moves (like hitting with the base of the scythe) would surely give him an edge, but then you have to keep in mind Mortarion isn't known for his speed or technique (although he could've developed the latter due to lack of the first), so making good use of every opportunity to kill is crucial.

[hendrik]

actually the scyth does allow those blocks etc to be made. offcourse in 40K everything is bigger and heavier etc but if you look at it on a linethic and technique based way a scythe allows a lot of blocking,counterattacking etc. basicly i can see mortarion using pollaxe techniques without having the backspike.

here's a video of what i mean:

:D

[2000AD]

As they say in the world of MMA..... "Styles make fights."

 

Therefore it is entirely reasonable to have a situation where Corax beats Curze and Horus but yet gets whipped by Angron.

 

Although in fairness since Angron is quite literally a gladiator primarch, he is going to be problematic for anyone....

[Grizzly_bear]

Dorns like a 'more technical brawling cage fighter'

[Jim Shady]

in the Alpha Ligion IA it is said that he was not a twin & was of similiar height to horus.

 

Though now in Gav Thorpe’s Deliverance Lost it is stated that Alpharius is, in fact, the smallest of the Primarchs. The descriptions of him fitting in seamlessly with other members of his Legion makes me conclude he could have been as small as an ordinary Space Marine!

 

I'm sure it was stated he is the smallest of the Primarchs BUT he is still a good head or so taller than say, the tallest Marine. Given whats in Legion, I think he makes use of this by swapping around with taller/bigger Marines who must have gone under some surgery to look like Alpharius.

 

As they say in the world of MMA..... "Styles make fights."

 

Therefore it is entirely reasonable to have a situation where Corax beats Curze and Horus but yet gets whipped by Angron.

 

Although in fairness since Angron is quite literally a gladiator primarch, he is going to be problematic for anyone....

 

Angron could probably best all the Primarchs in combat.

[Conn Eremon]

In Legion Alpharius and Omegon are mistakable for normal Marines. That would make them less than a head taller than average Marine height, considering that's kind of how tall Primarchs already are. Some of the slightly taller Marines were as tall as they were, which would make them only inches above average, not a full foot or more.

 

Way I see it, Angron would be the most able to win, though that doesn't make him the best fighter. He just seems like the kind of guy who would go to any lengths and means to defeat his opponent in any way he can, tactics or style be damned. He's out for your blood, and you will have to kill him before he kills you. Any and all fights with Angron would probably be like that, and I don't think it'd be one other Primarchs would be able to withstand in a practice bout setting. Russ would be second in my mind, because in battle he's no different. Hence him being the Executioner Primarch. He will be the one to beat you, but unlike Angron he can limit himself. Hence why most practice bouts shown have him losing but laughing.

 

Those would be the only two I see as being inherent 'winners.' As far as 'losers' go, Lorgar. He's just not a fighter, as he is willing to admit. I'd say Guilliman, too, because he's more of the behind the scenes general, but I'm sure he's more than just a cut above Lorgar in fighting capabilities.

 

The rest would be much more in line with what has already been said. Alternating series of victories and defeats that, ultimately, would make any attempts at categorizing their power or fighting capabilities a pointless endeavor.

[Iron Lord]

In Legion Alpharius and Omegon are mistakable for normal Marines. That would make them less than a head taller than average Marine height, considering that's kind of how tall Primarchs already are. Some of the slightly taller Marines were as tall as they were, which would make them only inches above average, not a full foot or more.

 

In Deliverance Lost we get to see a few little details about what differentiates the Primarchs from each other, genetically. And it calls out "Primarch 20" as lacking the growth factor that the other primarchs have.

[Conn Eremon]

In Legion Alpharius and Omegon are mistakable for normal Marines. That would make them less than a head taller than average Marine height, considering that's kind of how tall Primarchs already are. Some of the slightly taller Marines were as tall as they were, which would make them only inches above average, not a full foot or more.

 

In Deliverance Lost we get to see a few little details about what differentiates the Primarchs from each other, genetically. And it calls out "Primarch 20" as lacking the growth factor that the other primarchs have.

 

Not lacking in its entirety, though, just not having nearly as much as the others. So, tall for a Marine but the shortest Primarch. That book also said that Leman Russ' genetics used canine genes and that he wasn't the only one with non-human genetic introductions, plus that Perturabo lacks many of the things that allow us to feel pain and be physically aware of our bodies.

[Iron Lord]

Would be interesting if Sanguinius's wings were not a mutant trait at all- but were thanks to him being engineered that way with avian DNA.

 

Something like the birdfolk in James Patterson's When The Wind Blows, or his Maximum Ride series.

[Quixus]

All good, mate. Well, a scythe can certainly perform the same functions as a staff, with the benefit of the giant blade, but it has massive balance issues due to weight distribution. Of course, a Primarch doesn't have as hard a time with a weapon's weight, but Mortarion would still be at a disadvantage in duels, especially against faster swordsmen and hammer-wielders, since the scythe is both too unyielding to keep up with a lighter weapon and too frail to block hammer blows. Unless, of course, he'd block with the blade, but since it's located at the tip, that's less than practical.

 

So while Mortarion wouldn't be limited to wild swings, keeping up pressure on the opponent by targetting vital areas with successive massive strikes would probably be his best strategy. Of course, like you say, mixing this with a few unorthodox moves (like hitting with the base of the scythe) would surely give him an edge, but then you have to keep in mind Mortarion isn't known for his speed or technique (although he could've developed the latter due to lack of the first), so making good use of every opportunity to kill is crucial.

The other option would be to actually use a war scythe and not the scythe in farming setup. Then you have a weapon very similar to a lance or naginata.

[Eirik_Xenobane]

It comes down to a simple question

 

Why do you fight?

 

Each Primarch has a philosophy behind what they do and will fight based on that mindset.

 

Some, like Lorgar and Magnus, see close in fighting as either a last resort or as a result of other tactics failing. Their style will be simplistic, basic and desighned around ending things quickly, they will be defensive, gauging their opponents, looking for weakness.

 

Others fight to make a point, due to pride (like the Lion or Fulgrim) or (in the case of Guiliman and Horus I think) to turn the combat into a propoganda exercise. They will fight in a fashion desighned to show off, to exploit their skill and strength, to make the enemy know he has no chance, to break him. They may even drag out the combat, to humilate and break their foe.

 

Others will be professional (Angron, Russ, Alpharius and Dorn), they will engage the enemy, kill him as quickly and effciently as possible then move on to the next. They will be almost mechanical and not above dirty tricks to end things quickly. They fight to win, nothing else matters.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think people read too much into the Curze and Dorn 'fight'.

 

I'm sure people have seen or heard of one man KO'ing another with just a punch? Bob happened to get the drop Jim, and Jim went down like a sack of potatoes.

 

Dorn went to speak to Curze. Yes, Dorn was mighty cross that Curze had besmirched the Emperor, but being angry with someone is different from expecting to start fighting at the drop of a hat. Even if Dorn intended on giving Curze a thrashing, Dorn obviously wasn't considering doing so from the get go, otherwise he would have walked up to Curze and greeted him with a head butt to the nose, right?

 

Yes, Curze totally pwned Dorn.

And?

 

Just to add fuel to the fire, the phrasing is that Dorn confronted Curze over his visions. We've seen in other sources (Flight of the Eisenstein) how Dorn takes to having people close to him called heretic, and he came damn close to killing Garro for insulting Horus. Let's imagine how the Emperors Praetorian is going to take the news that one of his brothers had a heretical psychic vision of his father, the Emperor, beloved by all, killing one of his sons, and a civil war between the Primarchs and their Legions.

 

I can imagine Dorn intending to do far more than have a few quiet words with Curze.

 

That said, I'm certainly not saying Curze beats Dorn every time. Dorn doesn't seem like he spent that much time with Curze, so I can imagine him being unprepared for what Curze did to him, which gave Curze the advantage he needed to begin tearing chunks out of his brother. On the field of battle however, I can easily see the tables being turned.

Certainly, no Primarch is outright better in combat than the rest. They all have their strengths, they all have their weaknesses. Dorns weakness is his hot-headedness, much as he may try to control it. He's easily baited in matters of honour, and opponents can take advantage of that. Curze's weakness is his directness. He works by putting his opponent off their guard, and by fighting dirty. He wasn't trained in any sword-fighting techniques since childhood, or any of the other advantages the more martial Primarchs have.

[Legatus]

Others fight to make a point, due to pride (like the Lion or Fulgrim) or (in the case of Guiliman and Horus I think) to turn the combat into a propoganda exercise. They will fight in a fashion desighned to show off, to exploit their skill and strength, to make the enemy know he has no chance, to break him. They may even drag out the combat, to humilate and break their foe.

 

Others will be professional (Angron, Russ, Alpharius and Dorn), they will engage the enemy, kill him as quickly and effciently as possible then move on to the next. They will be almost mechanical and not above dirty tricks to end things quickly. They fight to win, nothing else matters.

Ahem, well, Guilliman has written a book on professionalism. Dorn's Successors on the other hand have traditions of honour duels to this day, and one particularly famous Successor Chapter has a special character in each battle group specifically for the purpose to call out enemy fighters to engage in one-on-one duels.