Ruminations on DIY training cadres

[Gulag]

I've seen a few times now that whenever it comes time for a DIY chapter that if someone wants to use Dark Angels gene-seed that the chapter inevitably must become one of the Unforgiven and have the Deathwing and Ravenwing attached to them.

 

Why is that? Hunting the Fallen is a cultural development, not a genetic flaw like the Black Rage or the Wulfen. The Dark Angels have some of the purest gene-seed of all the Loyalist sources but aren't trusted by the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra because of their secretive practices and aloofness from the organs of the Imperial government.

 

This is where I have to wonder...

 

Does the training cadre have to come from the same geneline? Do sons of the lion/guilliman/dorn/sanguinius/vulkan/jagathai/corax/ferrus have to be trained by the sons of the same primarch?

 

What about using a training cadre from a different geneline? I can understand that a Dark Angels successor trained by an Unforgiven cadre will become Unforgiven themselves, but what if say, the recruits are given Dark Angels gene-seed but trained by Ultramarines? Or Imperial Fists? Or even the Space Wolves?

 

This isn't as dangerous as diddling with the gene-seed of a chapter by far, I'm sure that the High Lords of Terra and the other Powers That Be have given this a try considering that two of their gene-seed sources, the Iron Hands line, and the Dark Angels line, have practices and cultural tics that makes HLT and =][= uncomfortable, so why not try to limit those cultural tics by using a different cultural model for training and establishment?

 

If there is a good reason not to feature a training cadre from a different geneline in the foundation of a DIY chapter (or an example of a different geneline training cadre in canon) please let me know, because this has been bugging me.

[Gulag]

Also, supposing that you use a Space Wolves training cadre for a different, more stable geneline, you can do your own counts-as Space Wolves route.

 

Just saying.

[Jehoel]

Hunting the Fallen goes beyond a "cultural development", since it is based on the secret crime of the Fallen's heresy and the shame that the Unforgiven feel.

 

The Blood Angels do their best to hide the Black Rage, the Black Templers hide their numbers, the Space Wolves hide the Wulfen. Same type of thing, just in different ways.

 

I don't see any reason why you couldn't have the training cadre be from a different geneline though. Interesting idea.

[Lysimachus]

The main reason to have trainers from the same lineage is that they will be better equipped to understand the processes of implanting their gene seed, along with any idiosyncrasies (both physical and psychological) that come with it. To use an extreme example, what would an Ultramarine Apothecary do with BA or SW seed?

[G3rman]

Not to mention it would be a disgrace or seen as a dishonor to the geneseed givers to be told 'Hey, its thanks to you and your geneseed this new chapter is being created but you can't have anything to do with its development because we don't trust you.'. It is their right to train the new chapter, not to mention that this would come in with the situation where the new chapter would know nothing of their primogenitors as the teachings were never passed down, either the knowledge withheld or not being allowed to collaborate with the original chapter.

 

You'd have another Blood Ravens on your hands, and we all know the chaos their fluff brings.

[NightrawenII]

I've seen a few times now that whenever it comes time for a DIY chapter that if someone wants to use Dark Angels gene-seed that the chapter inevitably must become one of the Unforgiven and have the Deathwing and Ravenwing attached to them.

 

Why is that? Hunting the Fallen is a cultural development, not a genetic flaw like the Black Rage or the Wulfen.

Because the Unforgiven are clever devils and look for any opportunity to further their hidden agenda? :P - Just because they are brooding, grim and aloof doesn't mean that they like what they are doing or that they don't want to put a end to this farce.

 

 

~NightrawenII.

[Gulag]

Hunting the Fallen goes beyond a "cultural development", since it is based on the secret crime of the Fallen's heresy and the shame that the Unforgiven feel.

 

I understand that they hate the Fallen and that the Fallen still draw breath is supremely painful and pisses them off, but it isn't a biological flaw or development - thus it is a social/cultural element.

 

The Blood Angels do their best to hide the Black Rage, the Black Templers hide their numbers, the Space Wolves hide the Wulfen. Same type of thing, just in different ways.

 

Right, non-codex chapters have something to hide.

 

I don't see any reason why you couldn't have the training cadre be from a different geneline though. Interesting idea.

 

Thanks!

[Gulag]

The main reason to have trainers from the same lineage is that they will be better equipped to understand the processes of implanting their gene seed, along with any idiosyncrasies (both physical and psychological) that come with it. To use an extreme example, what would an Ultramarine Apothecary do with BA or SW seed?

 

I don't know, but I'd like to find out.

 

I'm proposing the using of more stable gene-seed like Dark Angels or Iron Hands and getting them trained and established by another reliable and stable geneline.

 

Like the Imperial Fists or more likely, the Ultramarines. The physical quirks can't be that severe or different between stable genelines, while psychological quirks can be plastered over with enough psycho-doctrination and brain scrambling.

[Gulag]

Not to mention it would be a disgrace or seen as a dishonor to the geneseed givers to be told 'Hey, its thanks to you and your geneseed this new chapter is being created but you can't have anything to do with its development because we don't trust you.'. It is their right to train the new chapter, not to mention that this would come in with the situation where the new chapter would know nothing of their primogenitors as the teachings were never passed down, either the knowledge withheld or not being allowed to collaborate with the original chapter.

 

You'd have another Blood Ravens on your hands, and we all know the chaos their fluff brings.

 

Well, ;) 'em if they can't take a joke. The HLT decide the creation of new Chapters and all the details, and if someone doesn't like it well thats too bad. It is also a good hook for some drama and plot development.

 

Another Blood Ravens wouldn't be all that bad - at least they have some flair and character. No one needs "Unforgiven Clone #33" or "Ultramarine Replica 432412343".

[G3rman]

The last thing the High Lords need is drama with a space marine chapter, especially one of the first founding. Although they technically are the 'higher-ups', they know better than to abuse that power in certain situations. As long as the Dark Angels continue to fight for the Imperium and do not openly challenge them, they have no reason to keep them from having contact with their sired chapters or become their training cadres.

 

And if Ultramarines were to train them, they would of course become a clone of the Ultramarines just without necessarily the love for Gullieman but most likely they would even hold a debt to Macragge. Geneseed shapes the physical traits of the chapter but the training and indoctrination is where their personality comes from, as well as personal experiences.

[Gulag]

Because the Unforgiven are clever devils and look for any opportunity to further their hidden agenda? ;) - Just because they are brooding, grim and aloof doesn't mean that they like what they are doing or that they don't want to put a end to this farce.

 

~NightrawenII.

 

But every Dark Angels successor CAN'T be a member of the Unforgiven can they? Once the HLT start giving the Sons of the Lion the suspicious looks I like to think that the most powerful men in the Imperium who don't trust the existing Dark Angels and their successors wouldn't take measures to resolve the issue in their favor.

 

Not every successor chapter of any other First Founding chapter is a clone of their FF kin. Not even every UM successor is a UM clone, otherwise it would be boring and Mat Ward would burst into a flaming column of pure fanboy joy.

[Hrvat]

Unfortunately the latest DA codex states differently from its previous incarnations where only 2nd founding successors were Unforgiven, now everyone is, except maybe Relictors but since their gene seed is rumoured to be mixed from UM and DA who knows.

[Gulag]

Unfortunately the latest DA codex states differently from its previous incarnations where only 2nd founding successors were Unforgiven, now everyone is, except maybe Relictors but since their gene seed is rumoured to be mixed from UM and DA who knows.

 

Bleh. I can only hope that the next 'dex supercedes that. I hold to the older 'dex in preference.

[Gulag]

The last thing the High Lords need is drama with a space marine chapter, especially one of the first founding. Although they technically are the 'higher-ups', they know better than to abuse that power in certain situations. As long as the Dark Angels continue to fight for the Imperium and do not openly challenge them, they have no reason to keep them from having contact with their sired chapters or become their training cadres.

 

And if Ultramarines were to train them, they would of course become a clone of the Ultramarines just without necessarily the love for Gullieman but most likely they would even hold a debt to Macragge. Geneseed shapes the physical traits of the chapter but the training and indoctrination is where their personality comes from, as well as personal experiences.

 

Drama makes for an interesting story, an interesting plot and complications allows for lots of fun.

 

Even if the UM-trained DA successors were UM clones, it would be imperfect - they'd have flaws and neither the DAs nor UMs et al wouldn't really like or trust them. Uncomfortable relations and quirky development within the chapter.

 

Interesting. Unique. FUN.

[Heru]

I'm proposing the using of more stable gene-seed like Dark Angels or Iron Hands and getting them trained and established by another reliable and stable geneline.

 

Like the Imperial Fists or more likely, the Ultramarines. The physical quirks can't be that severe or different between stable genelines, while psychological quirks can be plastered over with enough psycho-doctrination and brain scrambling.

That is the thing, the quirks between genelines are indeed that severe. Stable doesn't mean the same, it means low on the mutation factor. If it were the same there wouldn't of been twenty different Primarchs. Different geneseeds would require different chemicals and processes to just store, let alone create new marines. You also have to deal with the fact that the training cadre's geneseed needs to get managed too.

 

The simple fact of the matter is we have official precident for direct same geneline cadres (Imperial Fists > Executioners), and whole cloth same geneline cadres (number of different Ultramarine successors > Fire Angels), but no precident for different geneline cadres. In fact in the case of the Dark Angels we have a complete lack of wording that would indicate that the idea is even on the table in the eyes of the High Lords. There is no "because of this distrust the High Lords have other genelines train new Dark Angel successors", instead it is just "DA geneseed is stable, but not used as much as you'd expect because the HLs don't trust the DA brood".

[Gulag]

I'm proposing the using of more stable gene-seed like Dark Angels or Iron Hands and getting them trained and established by another reliable and stable geneline.

 

Like the Imperial Fists or more likely, the Ultramarines. The physical quirks can't be that severe or different between stable genelines, while psychological quirks can be plastered over with enough psycho-doctrination and brain scrambling.

That is the thing, the quirks between genelines are indeed that severe. Stable doesn't mean the same, it means low on the mutation factor. If it were the same there wouldn't of been twenty different Primarchs. Different geneseeds would require different chemicals and processes to just store, let alone create new marines. You also have to deal with the fact that the training cadre's geneseed needs to get managed too.

 

The simple fact of the matter is we have official precident for direct same geneline cadres (Imperial Fists > Executioners), and whole cloth same geneline cadres (number of different Ultramarine successors > Fire Angels), but no precident for different geneline cadres. In fact in the case of the Dark Angels we have a complete lack of wording that would indicate that the idea is even on the table in the eyes of the High Lords. There is no "because of this distrust the High Lords have other genelines train new Dark Angel successors", instead it is just "DA geneseed is stable, but not used as much as you'd expect because the HLs don't trust the DA brood".

 

Now this is where I choose to see things differently.

 

I don't see any sort of canon or evidence to contradict this idea. Not one bit.

 

Whoo, totally going to use a training cadre from a different geneline now.

 

Not to mention also making a not-entirely-codex-compliant Second Founding Ultramarines chapter. Awesome.

 

Time for beer! ;)

[NightrawenII]

Not to mention it would be a disgrace or seen as a dishonor to the geneseed givers to be told 'Hey, its thanks to you and your geneseed this new chapter is being created but you can't have anything to do with its development because we don't trust you.'. It is their right to train the new chapter, not to mention that this would come in with the situation where the new chapter would know nothing of their primogenitors as the teachings were never passed down, either the knowledge withheld or not being allowed to collaborate with the original chapter.

Well, :mellow: 'em if they can't take a joke. The HLT decide the creation of new Chapters and all the details, and if someone doesn't like it well thats too bad. It is also a good hook for some drama and plot development.

And if the one, who doesn't like it, is the one, who is supposed to train the new Chapter, then what?

 

You have to consider the other side of the coin as well. Would be a Chapter willing to teach a Chapter of different gene-line? Why would they do that? After all they have no right to inherit the legacy of foreign Primarch.

 

Unfortunately the latest DA codex states differently from its previous incarnations where only 2nd founding successors were Unforgiven, now everyone is, except maybe Relictors but since their gene seed is rumoured to be mixed from UM and DA who knows.

Bleh. I can only hope that the next 'dex supercedes that. I hold to the older 'dex in preference.

You are going on dangerous and silly hyperbole here. Check the Codex or visit the Dark Angels sub-forum, so you can se how the Unforgiven Chapters are NOT clones of each other.

 

Drama makes for an interesting story, an interesting plot and complications allows for lots of fun.

 

Even if the UM-trained DA successors were UM clones, it would be imperfect - they'd have flaws and neither the DAs nor UMs et al wouldn't really like or trust them. Uncomfortable relations and quirky development within the chapter.

 

Interesting. Unique. FUN.

The problem with your reasoning is "unique for uniqueness sake" - Such things never work well, believe me. Yes, drama makes for an interesting plot, but all good stories have setup, conflict and resolution.

In the case of "unique for uniqueness sake" the setup is just artificial, and very often forced, way to introduce a conflict with no consideration of resolution.

 

I'm proposing the using of more stable gene-seed like Dark Angels or Iron Hands and getting them trained and established by another reliable and stable geneline.

 

Like the Imperial Fists or more likely, the Ultramarines. The physical quirks can't be that severe or different between stable genelines, while psychological quirks can be plastered over with enough psycho-doctrination and brain scrambling.

That is the thing, the quirks between genelines are indeed that severe. Stable doesn't mean the same, it means low on the mutation factor. If it were the same there wouldn't of been twenty different Primarchs. Different geneseeds would require different chemicals and processes to just store, let alone create new marines. You also have to deal with the fact that the training cadre's geneseed needs to get managed too.

 

Now this is where I choose to see things differently.

 

I don't see any sort of canon or evidence to contradict this idea. Not one bit.

Hmm...

*Each of the Second Founding Chapters was derived directly from an original First Founding Chapter and initially shared the same gene-seed. Subsequently the new Chapter's gene-seed was isolated, forming a new genetic line.

 

On Earth the Adeptus Terra set up genetic banks to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines. To prevent cross-contamination, the genetic stock of each Legion was isolated and henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock.*

~ Codex: Space Marines, 5th edition

 

I would say the lore is quite clear on this one. ^_^

 

~NightrawenII.

[Darrell]

Not much I can say that hasn't already been said, but you can certainly feel free to write your Chapter up however you like. Their background can be whatever you want. However, if you plan on sharing the idea with the Liber at some point then consider that many of the critics you'll be taking advice from are letting you know how they feel about it. If you plan on just writing the Chapter concept down in a notebook somewhere and keeping it between you and your local store then more power to you. But, if you come to the Liber with the concept then you've seen that the idea will have some difficulty being accepted.

 

Also, there is more to being unique than "Hunting Unforgiven or not" or "Following the Codex or not". The Liber and Librarium are full of very unique, interesting Chapters that come from the ranks of the Unforgiven or from the Ultramarines. In my experience, the Beliefs section is what really sets a Chapter apart from others. It explains how they see themselves, how they see their role in the Imperium, offers insight into why the Chapter has made the decisions it has and really sets your flag down on the Chapter's core concepts. "This is why we're different", it says, "And this is why we're awesome."

 

If you want a DA successor that doesn't hunt the Fallen, that could be a relatively simple thing to arrange. A DA successor is created, one of the Unforgiven sends a cadre. Since only the veterans really have some idea of what's going on, and only the Inner Circle knows most of what's going on, the shameful secret probably wouldn't extend beyond the training cadre until the new successor had some veterans of their own to be initiated. So, suppose that, early in the Chapter's history, the training cadre is decimated in a protracted war. The Chapter was at a place where they have some Astartes that are experienced enough to be veterans and take certain offices, but the cadre hadn't yet considered them ready to know about their role as Unforgiven. Some might know there's something they should be doing, but they don't know what. Or they know there's something they should be hunting, but they don't know who. Or they know they should be ashamed, but they don't know why. This opens up a number of possibilities; they could put an entirely new spin on hunting the Fallen, come up with an entirely new reason why they're Unforgiven or they could just ignore the whole thing entirely as being looked down upon for being new and being determined to show they haven't got a damned thing to be ashamed of.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room allowed in the fluff to get what you want, if you approach it the right way. Having a Chapter trained by an unrelated cadre is probably not the right way, unless you want to try your hand at an Alpha Legion deception (Which, I believe, has been done to varying degrees of success) but that's a difficult story to tell correctly in its own right.

[Gulag]

Not much I can say that hasn't already been said, but you can certainly feel free to write your Chapter up however you like. Their background can be whatever you want. However, if you plan on sharing the idea with the Liber at some point then consider that many of the critics you'll be taking advice from are letting you know how they feel about it. If you plan on just writing the Chapter concept down in a notebook somewhere and keeping it between you and your local store then more power to you. But, if you come to the Liber with the concept then you've seen that the idea will have some difficulty being accepted.

 

Also, there is more to being unique than "Hunting Unforgiven or not" or "Following the Codex or not". The Liber and Librarium are full of very unique, interesting Chapters that come from the ranks of the Unforgiven or from the Ultramarines. In my experience, the Beliefs section is what really sets a Chapter apart from others. It explains how they see themselves, how they see their role in the Imperium, offers insight into why the Chapter has made the decisions it has and really sets your flag down on the Chapter's core concepts. "This is why we're different", it says, "And this is why we're awesome."

 

If you want a DA successor that doesn't hunt the Fallen, that could be a relatively simple thing to arrange. A DA successor is created, one of the Unforgiven sends a cadre. Since only the veterans really have some idea of what's going on, and only the Inner Circle knows most of what's going on, the shameful secret probably wouldn't extend beyond the training cadre until the new successor had some veterans of their own to be initiated. So, suppose that, early in the Chapter's history, the training cadre is decimated in a protracted war. The Chapter was at a place where they have some Astartes that are experienced enough to be veterans and take certain offices, but the cadre hadn't yet considered them ready to know about their role as Unforgiven. Some might know there's something they should be doing, but they don't know what. Or they know there's something they should be hunting, but they don't know who. Or they know they should be ashamed, but they don't know why. This opens up a number of possibilities; they could put an entirely new spin on hunting the Fallen, come up with an entirely new reason why they're Unforgiven or they could just ignore the whole thing entirely as being looked down upon for being new and being determined to show they haven't got a damned thing to be ashamed of.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room allowed in the fluff to get what you want, if you approach it the right way. Having a Chapter trained by an unrelated cadre is probably not the right way, unless you want to try your hand at an Alpha Legion deception (Which, I believe, has been done to varying degrees of success) but that's a difficult story to tell correctly in its own right.

 

This was a very helpful reply, and I thank you very much for it.

 

I had not considered the potential and influence of the beliefs section and when you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that!

 

I also very much appreciate the suggestions about the deviant DA successor - when I read the pages of DA successors at the 40k Wiki or the Lexicanum it always seems to boil down to "Hunts Unforgiven. Secretive. Doesn't play well with others. Deathwing and Ravenwing. Knightly theme. Minor variations."

 

I will have to seriously consider this.