Rommel44 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Well mates, after playing nothing but fantasy for the past 4 years, I have finally decided to play 40K again as most of my friends want me to and said I need to get back into it. However, as they dragged me to the gaming store, they where pressuring me to go Grey Knights since they all play Imperium and want another ally to there list since (not trying to brag) I have done very well with running my Empire Fantasy Army when many people consiser it to be weak. Needless to sya, they didnt appeal to me, but when a friend of mine pulled off a box of Grey Knight Terminators off the shelf to show me, I saw a box of Thousand Sons and I liked how they looked and wanted to know more about there background. Needless to say to my friends dismay, I decided to get a Chaos army of pure Thousands Sions since I love there background about how they did everything for the Imperium but where betrayed and assulted, leaving them no choice but to join Horus and how they refused to become mutated by Chaos and cast the Ruberic of Ahriman in a attempt to prevent the mutations from corrupting there humanity any further. Whats not to like! Anyways, looking for veteran Chaos players on how good these guys can be and what would be the best way to run them, and from what I heard a lot of people like running them in Rhinos for better mobility but they Idea of a squad of 20x Thousand Sons does sound pretty cool. At the moment, I have: * Ahriman * (25x) Thousand Son Marines (including 3x Sorcerers). * Dreadnought w/multi.-melta. *(6x) Terminators (aka Obliterators) Not too bad of a start, however I'm still not sure if I really want to run a mechanized or a footslogger list at the moment, however most people tend to run them mechanized so any good ideas on where to build my list from here? Appreciate the help mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 The big issue is how to deal with Armor, right now against a Rhino or Mech anything, we can't bust enough vehicles to get at the juicy bits inside. I played a game a few weeks ago where I shot 6 melta/lascannon shots and couldn't bust a rhino.... played another where I couldn't take a vendetta down with 4 lascannons.... infact the game I lost I couldn't kill either vendetta for the entire game. It's hard to give you any suggestions as we don't know what the codex change will do for us, at the moment I suggest you keep things flexable and work on doing what you have to a nice standard. The Demon Prince kit gives you a nice unit on the field, and the ability to flex your creative juices as it almost gives you enough pieces to make 2 Demon Princes with some greenstuff work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp Angel Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Depends on how you define "pure" Thousand Sons. That sort of army would be Thousand Sons + Tzeentch marked Sorcerors/Sorceror Lords, and any traditional tank (Rhino, Predator, Land Raider, etc) or dreadnaught as they could be piloted by Rubric Marines. Summoned Lesser/Greater Daemons are logical, as are Daemon Princes. Marked terminators are not entirely fluffy, but might work. A Tzeentch based force would add marked units, but wouldn't be rubrics. Terminators fit in easily here. A Thousand Sons led force would include Obliterators, Defilers, etc. Your choice as to how strict you are for "pure" Thousand Sons. The army itself is not easy to play and doesn't lend itself to play mistakes. Downside: -Your squads are overcosted because of the Sorceror and his obligatory psychic power. -You are horrible in hand to hand combat, lacking any secondary weapons to provide an additional attack -You have no grenades -You only get a S4 force weapon to inflict casualties. -Against basic shooting, you die like normal Marines. -Models are slow and purposeful, you can't rely on them to cover ground when moving and you are I1 on the attack. -The more "pure" you are, the harder it is to have good long-range or anti-vehicle firepower. Upside: -All models have a good invulnerable save. -All models are effectively relentless and can fire their bolters up to 24" and still move. -Every unit has a force weapon for taking down pesky characters and monstrous creatures. -Every unit has a relatively good offensive psychic power available to them. -You shred Marines of any stripe when you get into bolter range. -They make hand to hand units that are effective only because they rend or have power weapons cry and tarpit them nicely. Play Notes: -I've had good success with Thousand Sons against a limited selection of opponents (haven't played them en-masse since the SW codex came out) by utilizing a winged Daemon Prince with Warp Time and Winds of Chaos; 2 Defilers, 1 squad of 3 Obliterators as my heavy support, and a few squads of Lesser Daemons to tarpit the enemy and hold objectives. -You MUST mechanize in Rhinos. The army is too slow otherwise. -Don't be aggressive. Be methodical. You aren't going to table anyone, so don't try. -Concentrate force by ceding objectives, using your units strategically, and trying to draw your opponent into doing something stupid. -Dreadnaughts are unreliable and often cause more problems than they solve. -You are going to have a low model count. Get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Hawk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 @Warp Angel- Actualy in battle for the fang the lead sorcerer is described as having a retinue of 'Rubric Terminators' which you could represent well with a bit of conversion, and use them as tzeench terminators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The current Tzeentch terminators are not rubrics though, rubric terminators are a separate thing that existed in 3.5 alongside Chosen terminators which were all sorcerers as far as I remember, they took this out because it was fun to convert and apparently too "complicated" a concept, and Khorne knows we don't want our stat based dice rolling nerd game to be more complicated than a :D grocery list. Anyway, all that Warp Angel said is true so there's no point in me repeating it. In other words, make sure you know exactly what you are getting yourself into, it's neither a very flashy nor a very "good" army, you will have to really outplay newer codeces to win and even then they will never be complete stompings like you can achieve with SW, DE, DRAIIIGOOOO, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-a-nothepsis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Just ask your friends if you can run the Warcoven rubric terminators from Apocalypse. I've been using it at my lgs outside of tournament play for years, no one cares. They just shoot 'em with small arms fire. DRAIIIGOOOO I'm really trying to avoid having you be my 2nd signature quote, help me out a little please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I run a pure Thousand Sons army led by Ahriman and it's pretty much the same thing: Ahriman, 9 obliterators (as sorcerers), chosen with meltas or plasma guns (as more sorcerers with anti armour/anti marine powers) and as many rubric marines as possible. I would put in dreadnoughts and defilers if I had slots/points spare because they'd fit with the fluff too. Defilers would be very cool as the cataphracts from the 'Battle of the Fang'. And you could always put in a greater daemon to represent a sorcerer who loses control of the warp and it takes over him like what happened in 'A Thousand Sons'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 @ Ah-a So you want me to what? Stop being brilliant? In the words of my old Starcraft AT partner "Negatory. GG." In other news, do they make you pay whatever the cover charge is to take the silly warcoven (which if memory serves is the one where they kill themselves to do--something or other)? If so then it's no skin off their back anyway, just makes a weak list weaker in my opinion, though it is fluffy and fun, unlike y'know, the actual Chaos codex. @ Ethrion Something like that list looks fairly workable, I ran a similar type Nurgle list, and it worked better than I expected, but mostly because of the obliterators. Only problem is, it's very boring to play (at least in my opinion) yes it requires skill and positioning, but it's also very reactive, you can't really "push" on your opponent very well, you just try to absorb his attacks and whittle him down while he has the initiative the whole time. Just doesn't feel like Chaos should in my opinion, which is sad because I still think that Chaos has the best fluff in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yeah it can be boring after a while. Basically, you brick up and slowly advance but that's kinda like how rubric marines would operate. The enemy can't drop in too close because the inferno bolters will annihilate them and they can't hang back because the obliterator sorcerers have the 48" range and the outflanking chosen sorcerers will be coming in soon. Plus the game is won and lost in the mid-table area and that's where the rubrics will have advanced to. Of course if you have that greater daemon he will be arriving later too which will add a bit of range threat and cqc power. With that said the aspiring sorcerers with warp time, a force sword and plenty of 4+ inv ablative rubric wounds make some enemy units think twice about charging the squads. Damn I love Thousand Sons! :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, warptime sorc Thousand Sons squads are actually "ok" in combat. The tricky thing about them is that things that would absolutely wipe the floor with say, standard CSM (Incubi, Assault Terminators, Bloodletters, etc) are actually far less efficient against them. On the flip side, the Sons aren't really good against anything, they are just too slow and have too few attacks. They will generally eventually lose, they can just hold out longer against powerhouses that depend on ignoring saves. The other thing is that at least in my experience, a 24" weapon is just not very useful unless it's mounted on something that can move rather fast or that is a dedicated assault unit and is only meant to fire once anyway (right before the assault). I mean even when I played Meq I never feared Inferno Bolts because at worst it's one turn of getting shot at with those things. And usually you can get cover saves of some kind so it's not that big a deal, and even if you couldn't it doesn't really change your strategy because you are still trying to get up close and personal, and unless the Sons player gets really lucky you will succeed. Props to you guys for playing the army though, it's got a great theme and looks really neat, especially since most players of niche lists like cult Chaos are enthusiasts that actually paint and convert their models making for some really nice looking battles. Edit: Looked at your PH Emp's Kids stuff Ethrion, really nice. I have been drawn to EC myself lately, and in general I've wanted to have an army of them off and on for years and years (since well before the Gavdex) and looking at your stuff made me want it more. I'll still wait until the new codex though, especially since I just blew all of my disposable cash on a new PC build :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Edit: Looked at your PH Emp's Kids stuff Ethrion, really nice. I have been drawn to EC myself lately, and in general I've wanted to have an army of them off and on for years and years (since well before the Gavdex) and looking at your stuff made me want it more. I'll still wait until the new codex though, especially since I just blew all of my disposable cash on a new PC build :blush: Cheers thanks! I've always liked the idea of them before they get corrupted so they are definitely based years before Laeran. It's a very slow burner project though as I have pre-heresy ultramarines to do as well as night lords :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Just looked, I agree with rain, those are nice pre heresy Emperor's children! The core of ,y force is Thousand sons, though I do have an chaos marine squad and a havok squad of alpha legionaires to provide support, as well as my Thousand son predators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-a-nothepsis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 So you want me to what? Stop being brilliant? Oh, you. /flutter Not to hi-jack this thread or anything, but my sorcerer coven are 60pts a pop and only one has a force weapon, so with 5 different models casting a psychic test (which could be nullified anyways) and trying to commit suicide no one really cares that i use them, especially since most of my friends play Niddlies. The terminators always just die to small arms fire, so people don't care that I am not paying the 200pt apoc formation opening-fee. lolx100. and what you're thinking about is every time you cast the apocalyptic barrage you can choose how many sorcerers to kill off in order to modify the number of blasts you get. Why do that when I can roll double 6's and kill guys just the same in normal games /cry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarsun Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 As a bit of advice, if you add in a Chaos Sorceror Lord or a regular Chaos Lord, the unit might still be SnP but they'll strike at regular initiative when they assault, meaning they'll be attacking like regular marines. Also, for dealing with light mech, I'd recommend adding in a squad of Havocs (a simple headswap will do in this case). Either autocannons or missile launchers. I'm very partial to Autocannons, and for 155pts, you got 8 strength 7 shots from a single squad. If you can't pop at least one rhino a turn with that many shots, well... (6 shots hit, 1 pen, 1 glance per turn on average, at up to 36 or 48 inches) Start the game off by parking them where they've got good lines of sight and in terrain preferably (cover save mimicking invul save, and since they're heavy weapons, you don't want to be moving them anyway mimicking SnP.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-a-nothepsis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'll be trying your Autocannon havoc suggestion out today Icarsun Yeah, and that Aspiring Sorcerer still goes at I4 when he doesn't actually move through terrain. Having a sorcerer HQ in the unit with Warptime greatly enhances everything they're strong at. Warptime + Doombolt is an excellent combo. At least if you're immobilized earlier you can compliment the squad with 3 shots of anti-troop fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommel44 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Thanks for the replies so far mates, however after recent playing a few games with them and doing ok with them (went 2-2-1 in 5x games) I have decided to maybe mix things up a bit. Now when I said running a Thousands sons army, I wasnt planning on running pure Thousand Son Marines since it doesnt really give me much flexibility and I have been thinking about adding some units to make my army a lot more effective. As it stands right now: * Ahriman is a good character, but as it stands right now he isnt that great in this edition, which is why I am gong to drop him in favor of a Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor with a squad of Terminators. * As mentioned above, I plan to run a squad of Terminators with my Chaos Sorcerer Lord, however I'm tempted to run them as a CC unit since my standard Thousand Sons are very effective at shooting and killing troops of other armies, which means I have a chance here to make this unit my hard-hitting unit in CC. However, still not sure on a base number to run them as but I do plan to maybe equip one with the reaper-autocannon but not 100% sure yet. Ideas? * Chosen are a unit that I think could help provide me with either some anti-tank firepower or some more CC power, however I'm not sure whats the most effective way to run them in this edition. They seem that they can be a very nasty CC unit since they can infiltrate and I can give them twin-linked lightning claws, however it also applies to there anti-tank firepower with 4x of them being able to take meltaguns and such. Basically, I'm looking for ideas and advise from others and which version have people found more useful when running these guys? *Troop wise, I plan to run some squads of Thousand Son Marines (go figure ;)), however, I have tried both the mechanized and the 20x man Horde unit and both did very well, the Mechanized allowing to move around and take objectives quicker, while the horde just pissed off my opponents since they are nearly impossible to move off of an objective so I will keep switching it up to mix it up a bit. * Havocs seem to be a good choice in giving me some anti-tank firepower against all the mechanized lists that are out there and I am tempted to take maybe 2x squads with either 4x Autocannons or 4x Missile Launchers, with my other heavy choice being 3x Obliterators, however are Havocs worth the points or should I stick to Obliterators as my heavy support. Appreciate the help mates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 * As mentioned above, I plan to run a squad of Terminators with my Chaos Sorcerer Lord, however I'm tempted to run them as a CC unit since my standard Thousand Sons are very effective at shooting and killing troops of other armies, which means I have a chance here to make this unit my hard-hitting unit in CC. However, still not sure on a base number to run them as but I do plan to maybe equip one with the reaper-autocannon but not 100% sure yet. Ideas? My preference is to run them at the full ten men, with two Reapers and two Powerfists, plus the Icon of Chaos Glory. The 4 Twin-Linked S7 shots help to eliminate transports, the fists are for MC's and Dreads, and the rest is still power weapons! I never deep strike them though, they're a mobile fire base from turn one and good in CC when they get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommel44 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 * As mentioned above, I plan to run a squad of Terminators with my Chaos Sorcerer Lord, however I'm tempted to run them as a CC unit since my standard Thousand Sons are very effective at shooting and killing troops of other armies, which means I have a chance here to make this unit my hard-hitting unit in CC. However, still not sure on a base number to run them as but I do plan to maybe equip one with the reaper-autocannon but not 100% sure yet. Ideas? My preference is to run them at the full ten men, with two Reapers and two Powerfists, plus the Icon of Chaos Glory. The 4 Twin-Linked S7 shots help to eliminate transports, the fists are for MC's and Dreads, and the rest is still power weapons! I never deep strike them though, they're a mobile fire base from turn one and good in CC when they get there. Thats what I was actually thinking about running them as well mate, however I do like the idea of deep striking them because it can make a difference. As I plan to run 3x Squads of 9x Thousand Sons, including the Aspiring Sorcerer in each one mounted in Rhions as my troop choices, the idea is to pay 5 points for each squad to have a Personal Icon, would allow my guys to deep strike up to 6 inches away from a squad with one, meaning that I can deep strike them where I need them most. Its an idea but I'm not sure how well it would do but it would be fun to test out. Also, if I give one terminator the Mark of Tzentch, would that mean my entire squad would get a 4+ Invulnerable save or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icarsun Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yeah, the IoT grants 4++ to the entire squad (except any ICs in the unit). Personally, if you're going this route, I'd say take Ahriman as well. Put wounds on the Termies, to protect Ahriman and Ahriman is the only model in the entire game capable of casting the same psychic powers over and over (3x Gift of chaos when you finally hit assault?) Just use squad placement shenanigans to protect Ahriman from powerfists. That is, put Ahriman in the very centre of the squad so if you get assaulted, no matter what, Ahriman wont get put into base to base against a strength 8 model,when you assault, put one Termie in base to base with the opponents Powerfist, then put Ahriman base to base elsewhere. It'll allow him to decimate the squad without fear of being insta-killed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yeah, the IoT grants 4++ to the entire squad (except any ICs in the unit). Personally, if you're going this route, I'd say take Ahriman as well. Put wounds on the Termies, to protect Ahriman and Ahriman is the only model in the entire game capable of casting the same psychic powers over and over (3x Gift of chaos when you finally hit assault?) Just use squad placement shenanigans to protect Ahriman from powerfists. That is, put Ahriman in the very centre of the squad so if you get assaulted, no matter what, Ahriman wont get put into base to base against a strength 8 model,when you assault, put one Termie in base to base with the opponents Powerfist, then put Ahriman base to base elsewhere. It'll allow him to decimate the squad without fear of being insta-killed... Sadly, that got FAQ'd...Ahriman cannot cast the same power three times anymore ;) But fear not, he shall be utter pwn face awesome in the next codex...I have foreseen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rommel44 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 It would be nice if Ariman got upgraded to a very powerful sorcerer since at the moment in my opinion he isnt worth the points. That being said, another quick question I have is should I go with a Sorcerer Lord or a Chaos Lord? Like the idea of both however I like the idea of my Chaos Lord having the Tzentch Demon Weapon, but then again the Sorcerer is more common with the Thousand Sons and is pretty good as well. Which is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I have been thinking of taking a lord with mark of Tzeentch, daemon weapon and a combi flamer, and saying it's a count as sorcerer. A terminator set up I have been thinking is 6 terminators with 4 combi plasma's, a heavy flamer, a tzeentch icon, 2 power fists and chainfist and a champion, at about 275pts yes this mainly aimed at taking down necrons, and to be deepstriked in, but if I swapped the heavy flamer for an autocannon and didn't deepstrike it would be an effective medium range/close range squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sadly, that got FAQ'd...Ahriman cannot cast the same power three times anymore :( But fear not, he shall be utter pwn face awesome in the next codex...I have foreseen it. Actually, Ahriman CAN use Gift 3 times a turn. The Chaos FAQ specifically states that he can. Other Tzeentch Sorcerers can't, but he can. With regards to running Icon of Tzeentch on the Terminators...don't forget that they aren't fearless, Icon of Glory gives them the re-roll which, IMO, is more usefull in keeping those units around. The reason I don't deepstrike the Terminators usually is that they are a large part of my transport popping. If they aren't destroying transports until turn 2+ then my AP3 bolters aren't doing their job until the enemy is (most likely) in charge range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ah-a-nothepsis Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 In fact, he is the only character in 40k now who can use the same power 3 times. Even Eldrad can't. :] Love him!!! I'm using 9 terminators today. Usually just use them as Warcoven termies at home, but they will do against hordes of gaunts :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry, you're quite right I was slightly mistaken...gift of chaos can be used multiple times but powers that are shooting attacks can only be used once per turn. So gift of chaos x3 is fine but doombolt or bolt of change x3 isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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