Need some help and information on chosen

[shdwcypher13]

What I need is knowledge of the warp. Specificly about those known as the Chosen, what talents they have. And more importently if you'v used them your oppinions and comments on this unit. I'm starting as of today to build my renegade SW army and I'v heard of this unit before but never got the chance to look into them. so All of your dark knowledge will be quit helpful in this.

 

 

Long Live the fallen, Long live the hunt, forever we are the DOOM WOLVE'S! and forever we wonder the shadows!

[Yogi]

Chosen can do a few things. Common wisdom is to max out their special weapons and chuck em in a rhino.

[Kol Saresk]

Firstly, they are the only unit in the current CSM dex that has infiltrate. They can be upgraded to take on mutliple threats such as melee, horde or long range pounding or be made specific as a squad. From the GW tactics that used(keyword used) to be posted, they seemed to be best used with an icon of khorne, a champion, a couple of flamers and a couple of lightning claws with a rhino. I personally have not used them or seen them used so i cannot vouch for their effectiveness although they are more mobile than a Terminator squad with pretty much the same potential.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

They Infiltrate, which means they can also Outflank. I've become a huge proponent for a 5-Chosen squad in a Rhino with two flamers and three meltaguns to Outflank into enemy positions and make a mess of things. It's a suicide unit, though, so don't be giving them names or anything that might make you mourn their demise.

[shdwcypher13]

Hmm well then I'll have to find a way to show them to be my red shirts. Maybe red tabards. Ok so a 5 man unit. Champion optional. I do have to say I love the lightning claw option. Sense I will be using space wolf bits I'll have 3 sets of lightning claws to.play with. Now then what is their general look? Oh and what's their point value?

[the jeske]

do not give them hth weapons and do not take champions they are not a hth unit . they a suicide 5 special units . they come in a rhino outflanking shot and then die . giving them extra bodies , hth upgrades etc makes them cost more [and they already cost more then a termicid] and not much better then a unit of csm [which are scoring , cost less and die the same way. chosen are "chosen" only in name] .

 

as LC goes it is a bad weapon to give to asp champions . If you take a hth weapon it is a fist .

Oh and what's their point value?

and that is against the rules . but lets just say they are overcosted for what they do .

[Kristoff]

Oh and what's their point value?

and that is against the rules . but lets just say they are overcosted for what they do .

 

Not quite, individually, but they do pay through the nose for their upgrades, all of them.

[the jeske]

would you run them without upgrades considering there are zerkers and csm in the troops section of the same codex ?

[Kristoff]

would you run them without upgrades considering there are zerkers and csm in the troops section of the same codex ?

 

If they could Infiltrate it would be a consideration, and that's how they are priced. CSM+Vet Skill (Infiltrate), then there is the normal upgrade price for Champ and Special Weapons. The options aren't any more than any other Troop, Fast Attack, or Havok, really, they just build up really fast.

 

While they do get expensive as you build them, their starting price isn't abnormal. And that was the point I was making. Think a little out of the box every now and then, you may be rewarded.

[the jeske]

So your point is that a 8-10 man chosen[probably with a 2 special 1 fist 1 power weapon set up] unit used as a line unit just like zerkers or csm is better use then the 5man 5 specials one because its not commonly used by chaos players ?

people deal with better ouflanking units then the chosen why would they be surprised ?

the 8-10 version which runs less gear doesnt cost less then the suicide version of the same chosen , but it does lose a lot of killiness. so how is that good?

while a suicide unit can unit can be a points filler[even if its costly and runing 2xtermicid would probably be a better idea] ,a bigger unit cant . a single one would be too random and 2 would cost too much . Specialy as we have to remember chosen arent ultra elite multi wound models , they get hit and die like normal marines[which cost more . and even the normal marines from our dex are considered sup par to cults].

 

As your comment about their higher cost being normal because of infiltration , I dont agree with that . Without buffs or support characters and without the abilty to spam a high cost unit which cant be made in to a deathstar should not cost that much and the infiltration for it should not cost 3 pts. To make a case of simiular units . banshees vs scorpions from eldar dex.

[Kristoff]

So your point is that a 8-10 man chosen[probably with a 2 special 1 fist 1 power weapon set up] unit used as a line unit just like zerkers or csm is better use then the 5man 5 specials one because its not commonly used by chaos players ?

people deal with better ouflanking units then the chosen why would they be surprised ?

the 8-10 version which runs less gear doesnt cost less then the suicide version of the same chosen , but it does lose a lot of killiness. so how is that good?

while a suicide unit can unit can be a points filler[even if its costly and runing 2xtermicid would probably be a better idea] ,a bigger unit cant . a single one would be too random and 2 would cost too much . Specialy as we have to remember chosen arent ultra elite multi wound models , they get hit and die like normal marines[which cost more . and even the normal marines from our dex are considered sup par to cults].

As your comment about their higher cost being normal because of infiltration , I dont agree with that . Without buffs or support characters and without the abilty to spam a high cost unit which cant be made in to a deathstar should not cost that much and the infiltration for it should not cost 3 pts. To make a case of simiular units . banshees vs scorpions from eldar dex.

 

So, a non-Troop unit is only viable if it is a Death Star waiting in the wings? Need I remind you that the origin of that name was taken out by a farm boy in a superiority fighter who had a little luck (and a tweaked To-Hit roll)? Is taking Chosen without Special Weapons a good idea? Not always. But it IS an option that may be needed in specific instances, and so kept in mind. Your way of explaining them indicates that they start expensive and stay there.

 

You may not agree with the statement about the pricing, but it is nevertheless true. Codex: Chaos Space Marines was written with some of the holdovers that are all over the 4th Edition codecies for those to see. As it is right now, show me any 5th Edition PA Space Marine with the ability to Infiltrate to provide a proper price point reference. There is none. The only other source in a current codex is the Black Templar Sword Brethren, who are actually a point more (though, they do have other options, which Chosen should have access to, but that's another thread). In the 4th Edition Codex: Space Marines such Veterans Skills were actually the same difference as we see in the Chosen right now.

 

As for the Scorpion and Banshee reference, there is far more difference between them than just Infiltrate, namely weapons, equipment, and armor, or would mentioning Fleet be too much as well?

 

--

 

Man, you have a very depressing view of the game. Reminds me of those people who loudly proclaim how bad WoW is while they are playing it, and then how X game isn't going to succeed because it ISN'T like WoW. You seem to spend more time whining and trying to fit everyone else into your tournament-side view instead of encouraging others to be inventive and enjoying the GAME side of the hobby. Most people aren't playing Chaos right now to be the ubermensch on the tabletop.

[the jeske]

--

Man, you have a very depressing view of the game.

nah . just the chaos dex [well and the nids] . I find all the meq dex very good , eve if some are harder to play then other [like BAs for example. bit fragile to me and it realy takes a lot of skill to play them at top level].

 

 

Need I remind you that the origin of that name was taken out by a farm boy in a superiority fighter who had a little luck (and a tweaked To-Hit roll)?

to make use your example . the first one wasnt ready , so using a w40k example , yep chosen +Khârn+abadon in a LR that would be the first death star. What someone realy needs[lol I wrote nids . ;)] is an eclips class super star destroyer .

 

But it IS an option that may be needed in specific instances, and so kept in mind.

which ones and at how many points ?

The only other source in a current codex is the Black Templar Sword Brethren, who are actually a point more (though, they do have other options, which Chosen should have access to, but that's another thread).

 

they are also a type of unit which is never taken . They werent even taken back in the days of 4th ed. Which is a shame considering the nice models.

 

Reminds me of those people who loudly proclaim how bad WoW is while they are playing it,

its not just the game . WoW is ok . But why the hell does blizz hate shamans.

 

 

 

Most people aren't playing Chaos right now to be the ubermensch on the tabletop.

so in order to have good time , with a codex that is clearly worse the other armies , people should be using options which make their armies [weaker because of weaker dex] even worse ? 0_o I think that before a dude goes out and buys 15 sets of power armor LC from a bitz site , because he thinks they are "cool" its better to tell him that those LC dudes kind of a suck . This A saves him money and in general saving money makes people happy . I mean its not like I can actualy stop anyone from puting anything in to their list , but am not a GW sales man , am not going to lie and say that everything is awesome and everything can be used because the game just doesnt work like that and no I dont just mean the tournament sceen . from a tournament point of view chaos at 1500-1850 may as well not exist , because if a list has chance against SW and GK , then it will have more chance against chaos .

 

 

instead of encouraging others to be inventive and enjoying the GAME side of the hobby.

with what . I can make builds and I ca judge them when it is possible to make them . If it isnt then such a build does not exist . Sure chosen can be fit in to a 2k+ army[not that chaos players have any choice with that as we kind of a cap troops/HQ/hvy support at around 1850] , but we dont do it because the chosen are good , but because there arent realy many options to pick from . ouflanking chosen or terminators with/without LRs . done . more doesnt fit unless its apo .

+ when one does play chaos it is realy realy realy hard to enjoy playing chaos . I mean your a vet . Do you enjoy playing chaos ? When I see a same armed , same game play unit in a SW dex [if someone plays csm] or GK[i play ECs this edition] and they are not only better[one can deal with that] but for less points[cant deal with that because this means they get a free unit every 3 identical units we both take] , it does not make me happy .

 

That is without even thinking what was in the 3.5 dex. Just looking at my dex and points costs from other dexs.

[shdwcypher13]

Ok so from what all I've read here chosen are my scout unit in dn armor. Sure thirty not going to be snipers but infiltrators have thirty own special place. I'll have to check the dex when I'm at the store next to check their equipment load outs. But as I see it they have some every sneaky. Even if they die in one round they can possibly change the game for me

[Kol Saresk]

They actually have a pretty decent load out.

[Kristoff]

Yeah, Chosen options are among the best in their generation (4th Edition, post-Tau), only the Chaos Terminators beating them out, really. But the Chosen also beat them out a little there. True, while every Terminator can have access to one shot of Melta or Plasma, Chosen can use those all game long.

 

Man, you have a very depressing view of the game.

nah . just the chaos dex [well and the nids] . I find all the meq dex very good , eve if some are harder to play then other [like BAs for example. bit fragile to me and it realy takes a lot of skill to play them at top level].

 

While I will totally agree that the CSM codex is as bland as a dead Warp, the units aren't as dire bad as you always make them out to be because they are still Space Marines at their core. They are a little more expensive than the puppies and glitter boys when you add up all the toys together, but they are still strong enough to recover from minor foibles than other codecies of the same generation. And considering the abusive high that the codex was on before this came out it was ALMOST needed.

 

Need I remind you that the origin of that name was taken out by a farm boy in a superiority fighter who had a little luck (and a tweaked To-Hit roll)?

to make use your example . the first one wasnt ready , so using a w40k example , yep chosen +Khârn+abadon in a LR that would be the first death star. What someone realy needs[lol I wrote nids . :woot:] is an eclips class super star destroyer .

 

Nope, first Death Star was completely ready, and the Alliance couldn't get close to the thing with anything larger than a bomber (Falcon was cheap plot device). The second one allowed a light freighter and a squadron of fighters fly into its core and required a planet-based shield as its primary defense. Now which wasn't ready again?

 

But it IS an option that may be needed in specific instances, and so kept in mind.

which ones and at how many points ?

 

True, no standard games will usually require them to Infiltrate with just Bolters, but I guess that's part of your meta. We have alternate FOC tournaments all the time. Also some people play campaigns, so that may be a factor as well. When someone tells me something is expensive, with no other addendum, I'm looking at the base cost of the unit in question. Are they more expensive than 'Tactical' Chaos Marines? Yes. Do they cost more than Cult Marines? No. Do they cost more than Chaos Terminators? No, though initial base cost is the same, you get 5 wounds vs the Terminators 3, but like Chosen, why would you take base Terminators?

 

The only other source in a current codex is the Black Templar Sword Brethren, who are actually a point more (though, they do have other options, which Chosen should have access to, but that's another thread).

they are also a type of unit which is never taken . They werent even taken back in the days of 4th ed. Which is a shame considering the nice models.

 

True, why take PA when you can take TDA for twice the cost and have access to all the same skills (but Infiltrate)? Or a Dreadnought (or two)?

 

Most people aren't playing Chaos right now to be the ubermensch on the tabletop.

so in order to have good time , with a codex that is clearly worse the other armies , people should be using options which make their armies [weaker because of weaker dex] even worse ? 0_o I think that before a dude goes out and buys 15 sets of power armor LC from a bitz site , because he thinks they are "cool" its better to tell him that those LC dudes kind of a suck . This A saves him money and in general saving money makes people happy . I mean its not like I can actualy stop anyone from puting anything in to their list , but am not a GW sales man , am not going to lie and say that everything is awesome and everything can be used because the game just doesnt work like that and no I dont just mean the tournament sceen . from a tournament point of view chaos at 1500-1850 may as well not exist , because if a list has chance against SW and GK , then it will have more chance against chaos .

 

Not always. Why? Because we can put out more Invul saves on the ground than anyone else outside of Daemons.

 

Do LCs on Chosen suck? No. Are there better things to put them on? You betcha. Are there better things you can combine with Chosen? Sure. But what if the army the player wants to create and play has those things all over the place? Chosen are more cost effective than Terminators, and can actually put themselves in more unpleasant positions for the enemy.

 

instead of encouraging others to be inventive and enjoying the GAME side of the hobby.

with what . I can make builds and I ca judge them when it is possible to make them . If it isnt then such a build does not exist . Sure chosen can be fit in to a 2k+ army[not that chaos players have any choice with that as we kind of a cap troops/HQ/hvy support at around 1850] , but we dont do it because the chosen are good , but because there arent realy many options to pick from . ouflanking chosen or terminators with/without LRs . done . more doesnt fit unless its apo .

+ when one does play chaos it is realy realy realy hard to enjoy playing chaos . I mean your a vet . Do you enjoy playing chaos ? When I see a same armed , same game play unit in a SW dex [if someone plays csm] or GK[i play ECs this edition] and they are not only better[one can deal with that] but for less points[cant deal with that because this means they get a free unit every 3 identical units we both take] , it does not make me happy .

 

I enjoy playing Chaos for the same reason I got into Choas. If playing Chaos was dang horrible and impossible, than myself and about 4-5 others are total saps to continue playing them at our LGS, and I should have started playing smurfs, puppies, or twinkle-toes out of the gate like everyone else who is starting their armies. We play them because we like our armies.

 

At my LGS, we have a Noise Marines player, who does dang well, and is almost convinced his Land Raiders run on hemp or cocaine. We have a former Tzeentchian that got bored and wanted to expand into Khorne, and he's no slouch, no matter who's playing. Assorted others who play more general lists and hammer things quite well.

 

Why do they do well? Well, it's obviously not the codex, there are much more cost effective options. They do well because they love their armies, know how they fight, and know that the game still comes down to tumbling cubes as much, if not more, than it does ink on paper and plastic on table.

[the jeske]

that is wish thinking . A an army does not work better because you like it style . NM can work better [like a syran build for example] because no man plays them and 99% of the play field forgets that there are ap3 flamers. Still it is something you can use 1 time per player and only if the list are shown post game and not pre game .

 

 

 

I cant play the armies I liked their builds are dead. I cant play any AL builds , I cant play demon bombs . I picked EC only because they were a little different in the 5th , while at the end of 4th I played a terminator hvy army[because they were scoring back then]. And GK do the same as EC or rather NM only unlike them they are not 1 troop option with 6 upgrades , but a whole codex. But hey if that makes your friend happy . de gustibus.

 

 

 

Chosen can use those all game long.

am having a problem with the all day long . 5 special chosen will not be firing all day long , unless the opponent is incompetent or cant deal with 5 meq [which for me would be the same thing] . they are like oblits or DP , if not pro activly countered they kill too much , ergo they do get countered , so they die . Now one could counter this by making them either bigger [the cost problem rises here] or by changing their nature . A unit of outflanking chaos chosen with 8-10 dudes and 2 specials not 5 may be lower on the treat scale so may live longer . the problem is such a unit is not better then a unit of zerkers or csm and it still does cost more . Even if someone goes for something unortodox[now we are taking a trip to the very begining of 5th ed] and takes chosen in 5 man las/plas minimax set ups , it is still not good enough . yes it is a lascanon +plasma who get positioned after the enemy [so technicly better fire lines etc] , but still puting the same points in to an oblit gives more back . Sure we can argue stuff like am playing tide orcs , so I load up on 3x5 with flamers 5x5pms with flamers+combi flamers on champs , but then we are using a tailored list against a non tailored one . If the opponent didnt tell he is brining tide orcs[or brough something else] the chosen would never be taken . [when never is HQs slots full , hvy slots full ,4 troops taken no points left to use].

 

 

 

Not always. Why? Because we can put out more Invul saves on the ground than anyone else outside of Daemons.

and they are too low to count for hth and are lower then the avarge cover for the edition when shoting goes . And it also isnt true about the invs SoB have a +6 inv on every sob.

 

 

 

 

True, why take PA when you can take TDA for twice the cost and have access to all the same skills (but Infiltrate)? Or a Dreadnought (or two)?

terminators with melta . 105pts . 5 chosen with specials and a rhino costs less ? even without the rhino they cost more .

but then your runing in to the problem of infiltration being A random[what if your opponent deploys his dudes first] B SW having RP with chooser of slain which kills infiltration builds hard.

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, first Death Star was completely ready, and the Alliance couldn't get close to the thing with anything larger than a bomber (Falcon was cheap plot device). The second one allowed a light freighter and a squadron of fighters fly into its core and required a planet-based shield as its primary defense. Now which wasn't ready again?

the first one . shielding wasnt ready . there were desing foults , it was not combat worth not the best so it wasnt ready . the second one wasnt finished .

 

 

They are a little more expensive than the puppies and glitter boys when you add up all the toys together, but they are still strong enough to recover from minor foibles than other codecies of the same generation.

its a free unit every 3 units . an identical army of SW gets a free dakka pred over an undivided csm army .

a fully blinged out unit of unit of GK costs 290pts . it costs like a unit of ECs only has 2 hvy weapons and it bolters actualy can hurt rhino class stuff. As codex of same generation goes . when csm went legal , orcs were ready [more builds and ways to play, more options ] , so were demons[which imo were never good , because of the random aspect and being weak against mecha.] and csm with its specials changing FoC was in the end testing period . We were better power wise then DA[no wonder a JJ dex] , but then they get FAQed and at least DW does work [not saying its awesome but it does work] .

[Bloodcrusade]

that is wish thinking . A an army does not work better because you like it style .

Ummm, what?

 

The play-style of your army corresponds directly with your win ratio. Hand me a CC focused Templar list and I'll rock your face to the last Neophyte, give me a Mech-MSU Shooty list and you'll probably table me with-in 3 turns because while I know how to effectively run those lists, it's not my style of play and so I end up doing stupid things with the army.

 

Further, you could lose the game handily to your opponent but walk away proud and happy because of the army you played.

 

What kind of army you are playing definitely works better because you like playing it.

[Rain]

What jeske is saying is that just because you enjoy a certain style/build with a certain army does not make that style/build competitive. BT are a CC army, and though they are a tad dated, they still serve that purpose pretty well, a better example would be gunline Chaos or something. Maybe an IW player would want to play gunline, unfortunately that's not a very viable way to go right now, even if they like it. Space Wolves on the other hand can pull this style off, just because their list is written with more cheap long range weapon options and much more useful heavy weapon infantry (razorbacks and long fangs, respectively).

[Kristoff]

that is wish thinking . A an army does not work better because you like it style . NM can work better [like a syran build for example] because no man plays them and 99% of the play field forgets that there are ap3 flamers. Still it is something you can use 1 time per player and only if the list are shown post game and not pre game .

 

Sun Tzu disagrees. The main line that is taken away from his treaties is the one about knowing yourself. As Bloodcrusade pointed out, one that fits your style is one you play better, because you know it better, not only intellectually, but also as part of your natural instincts. Could the same player do better with a more "modern" codex? Possibly, even probably, but if he hates the models or even anything else about the army, he has a much higher chance of losing because he flat out cares less about the army. Not everyone is like that, you are a perfect example of that, but then, not everyone else is like you, either, and need that emotional connection to make their army have any hope of shining.

 

I cant play the armies I liked their builds are dead. I cant play any AL builds , I cant play demon bombs . I picked EC only because they were a little different in the 5th , while at the end of 4th I played a terminator hvy army[because they were scoring back then]. And GK do the same as EC or rather NM only unlike them they are not 1 troop option with 6 upgrades , but a whole codex. But hey if that makes your friend happy . de gustibus.

 

Yeup, it makes him happy, and therefore playing. And because he plays, he has opportunities to improve over someone who just moans and sticks to "The Build".

 

Chosen can use those all game long.

am having a problem with the all day long . 5 special chosen will not be firing all day long , unless the opponent is incompetent or cant deal with 5 meq [which for me would be the same thing] . they are like oblits or DP , if not pro activly countered they kill too much , ergo they do get countered , so they die . Now one could counter this by making them either bigger [the cost problem rises here] or by changing their nature . A unit of outflanking chaos chosen with 8-10 dudes and 2 specials not 5 may be lower on the treat scale so may live longer . the problem is such a unit is not better then a unit of zerkers or csm and it still does cost more . Even if someone goes for something unortodox[now we are taking a trip to the very begining of 5th ed] and takes chosen in 5 man las/plas minimax set ups , it is still not good enough . yes it is a lascanon +plasma who get positioned after the enemy [so technicly better fire lines etc] , but still puting the same points in to an oblit gives more back . Sure we can argue stuff like am playing tide orcs , so I load up on 3x5 with flamers 5x5pms with flamers+combi flamers on champs , but then we are using a tailored list against a non tailored one . If the opponent didnt tell he is brining tide orcs[or brough something else] the chosen would never be taken . [when never is HQs slots full , hvy slots full ,4 troops taken no points left to use].

 

Yeah, you totally missed the point of that post, probably because you cut it out of the quote. I was comparing them to Terminators Combi-Bolters. Yeah, Chosen tend to die a lot faster, no argument there (it's probably why they are cheaper 1:1 than a Terminator, shocker!), but while they are alive they can fire their Special Weapons A LOT more often than a Terminator because they aren't one-shotters.

 

Not always. Why? Because we can put out more Invul saves on the ground than anyone else outside of Daemons.

and they are too low to count for hth and are lower then the avarge cover for the edition when shoting goes . And it also isnt true about the invs SoB have a +6 inv on every sob.

 

SoB rely on a roll to get their save, it's not inherent. But that's beside the point.

 

True, why take PA when you can take TDA for twice the cost and have access to all the same skills (but Infiltrate)? Or a Dreadnought (or two)?

terminators with melta . 105pts . 5 chosen with specials and a rhino costs less ? even without the rhino they cost more .

but then your runing in to the problem of infiltration being A random[what if your opponent deploys his dudes first] B SW having RP with chooser of slain which kills infiltration builds hard.

 

Hmm, let's see, on a 1:1 basis, which costs more? Oh, yeah. Terminators. And that's what I was referencing. And let's see, how much do 5 Terminators with Combi-Meltas cost? Oh, yeah, a Chosen with Melta still costs less than a naked Terminator (true, only a couple points, but yeah, it's still there), and they can still shoot them every turn they are alive, while a Terminator is stuck with just a Bolter after he pops his load.

 

Nope, first Death Star was completely ready, and the Alliance couldn't get close to the thing with anything larger than a bomber (Falcon was cheap plot device). The second one allowed a light freighter and a squadron of fighters fly into its core and required a planet-based shield as its primary defense. Now which wasn't ready again?

the first one . shielding wasnt ready . there were desing foults , it was not combat worth not the best so it wasnt ready . the second one wasnt finished .

 

Yes, the first one was ready for the job it was design to do. But guess what, it wasn't designed to handle snub fighters because "they weren't a threat", so they didn't have a sufficiently tight defense. 30+ ships went in, only 3 came out, and it wouldn't have happened at all if it wasn't for the whole plot device of the plucky young farm boy becoming Arthur/Merlin. It was ready for everything but a plot device. And who can really be ready for that?

 

They are a little more expensive than the puppies and glitter boys when you add up all the toys together, but they are still strong enough to recover from minor foibles than other codecies of the same generation.

its a free unit every 3 units . an identical army of SW gets a free dakka pred over an undivided csm army .

a fully blinged out unit of unit of GK costs 290pts . it costs like a unit of ECs only has 2 hvy weapons and it bolters actualy can hurt rhino class stuff. As codex of same generation goes . when csm went legal , orcs were ready [more builds and ways to play, more options ] , so were demons[which imo were never good , because of the random aspect and being weak against mecha.] and csm with its specials changing FoC was in the end testing period . We were better power wise then DA[no wonder a JJ dex] , but then they get FAQed and at least DW does work [not saying its awesome but it does work] .

 

Heh, I'd like to see an identical army of puppies. They can't match "The Build" for Chaos at all, so that's pointless. They can't match my build, so that's also pointless. They can't match any build I see at my LGS, either. Why? Because our HQs are different, our Troops are different, even our options are different. I haven't seen any Daemon Princes coming from the Puppies. I haven't seen any bunny-eared Berzkers or tripping Rockers amongst the glitterers. I still am waiting for when a Loyalist summons Daemons or teleports in Obliterators. And yeah, the Grey Knight Defiler is to DIE for! Oh, wait, they don't have that, either. And those Black Templar Plague Marines held me the whole game! Oh wait, that didn't happen, either. Yeah, we can't make their builds, but guess what, we aren't meant to, just like we can't theirs.

 

Does it suck that our codex is from a different design philosophy? You betcha. Does it suck that because our previous codex spawned some of the most hateful builds in the game ours got hit with one of the worst nerf bats in history? Uh-huh. Is it annoying that there are codecies out there that make us look like a early 70s luxury car? Yeup. Is it more satisfying when I turn around and ram it down someone's figurative throat and annoy the hell out of them by beating or drawing with them due to superior tactics/placement/rolls? Hell, yeah.

 

So yeah, Chosen, cool option to put some annoying Special Weapons into an annoying spot for cheaper than the one-shot Terminators can put theirs in.

[the jeske]

TWC lord with eternal warrior aka the demon prince

3x10GH with 2 specials MotW totem powerweapon aka the csm

Long Fangs aka the more shoty oblits

1xpred.

 

 

Because our HQs are different, our Troops are different, even our options are different.

realy ? am not saying SW cant be made in to better builds then chaos , but if one goes for identical kind of game play style it is easy. how is a TWC with eternal warrior different in use then a DP [and yes I know its it better to run a RP at 1500 but lets say someone wants to go wild] . GH vs CSM totem+mark+weapon out perform a one more A fist . Long fangs are oblits on crack . more shots and they can split fire , which lets face it is better then being able to deep strike .

and if someone wants to be realy undivided no demon AL dude he gets wolf scouts and lords [without twc] and sorc which are better for less. When was the last time you have seen a RP costing more then sw TWC lord ? because that is what sorc for us are more or less.

 

 

BT are a CC army,

maybe out of the small dex. maybe in 4th ed they had hth builds . now they are gunline like no other sm army out there . minimax ? they are there. two AC tank hunter terminators , you can have 5 units of those[not that they will fit in but it is an option] . machine spirit vindicators ? as in move and shot and cant get stuned , without the chaos -1BS? probably one version that is worth anything ,before even the BA fast ones. Tempet speeders FAQed and all good. BT right now make one hell of a gunline . But I do understand why some BT players dont want to play them that way , doesnt realy fit the army theme. The difference is they have an option to play it different .What option to "play different" does an EC or AL player have ?

 

 

 

Sun Tzu disagrees.

when they add fog of war and the options to bribe other side officers and enlist their soldiers durning the game Sun Tzu will start to matter for w40k . right now he doesnt . GK with identical game style like EC will always perform better. You dont even need paladins , NDKs Land raiders . you take basic troopers replace sonics with buffed up storm bolters and psycannons and the army just works better . Has more synergy and what is probably most important to why it is so good . Rolls more dice .

Yeup, it makes him happy, and therefore playing. And because he plays, he has opportunities to improve over someone who just moans and sticks to "The Build".

well if he played the EC for the last , what was it 3-4 years we have the gav dex , then well he was playing what you call "the build" because EC are made out of 1 troop . If this makes him happy . Cool , in fact I personaly I find it awesome . But have you seen how dead the slanesh part of the forum is , because maybe your friend is special in being happy about what EC are right now ,because its not like we see slanny player that offten . since the dex came out I seen less then 10 . as in actualy with my own eyes .

 

Hmm, let's see, on a 1:1 basis, which costs more? Oh, yeah. Terminators. And that's what I was referencing. And let's see, how much do 5 Terminators with Combi-Meltas cost? Oh, yeah, a Chosen with Melta still costs less than a naked Terminator (true, only a couple points, but yeah, it's still there), and they can still shoot them every turn they are alive, while a Terminator is stuck with just a Bolter after he pops his load.

and If chosen were 1-20 infiltrate , I would take 3 or 6 every game . even if they remove rhinos as a transport option for them . Thing is you cant take 1 chosen . you have to take 5 . they always have a higher cost then termis[i mean your not going to take them with less then 3 specials , because if you did you may as well take 5pms with 2 melta] , that is the problem. As the poping thing goes . Yep that is what the termi does . It lands and then it dies . Same for a chosen[for more points] . against small weapon fire they are more or less the same against assault the termis do more wounds back , if there is no i5 , but in the end it doesnt matter both units die and one costs more then the other . both have a random entry time one can scatter the other end up on the wrong side . If termis were relentless I would say they are always better [because it would make plasma for them viable] , but they are not . I said it before both units arent great , but termis are cheaper then chosen . specialy out of the box thinking chosen which may cost even more [or cost less , but still cost more then the termis , but no longer be as effective] .

 

SoB rely on a roll to get their save, it's not inherent.

actualy no . the +6 inv is an army wide special rule . doesnt change the fact that both are a gimmik and not an actual rule which makes a unit good[like a storm shield for example] .

 

And who can really be ready for that?

draigo wing paladins are an example of a deathstar that is ready to take a hit vindi shot or shoting from half an army and still be an effective unit . To be less off topic and more about w40k . If a death star is not ready and can be taken out with what you call a small fighter[and I call 5 dudes with 3+special weapons] then the "death star" is not ment to be a death star at best it is something that is just overcosted.