Min Sized Henchmen Squads -- Why not?

[DumbleDoo]

After looking at the codex for a bit, it seems that a Coteaz build based around min-sized squads in HB razorbacks leads to the most offensive shooting power available (see sample 1750 list below). These lists also excel at range as they have a lot of 48" and 36" shooting that the pure GK lists usually lack. I know that the troops will die to a swift breeze but the ability to start them in reserve and deploy the razorbacks empty should mitigate a lot of their weakness. What I was wondering is if others have tried this approach and found it unfavorable or if there is some other downside that I am missing.

 

Sample list @ 1750

 

HQ: Coteaz

HQ: OXI with rad, pschotroke, hammerhand & 3 servoskulls

 

E1: Ven Psyfleman

E2: Ven Psyfleman

E3: Ven Psyfleman

 

T1: 7 DCA & banisher

T2: 3 acolytes & psybolt razorback

T3: 3 acolytes & psybolt razorback

T4: 3 acolytes & psybolt razorback

T5: 3 acolytes & psybolt razorback

T6: 3 acolytes & psybolt razorback

 

HS: LRR with multi melta & psybolt

HS: Psyfleman

HS: Psyfleman

[Something Wycked]

It may lead to "the most offensive shooting power available" but you're missing out on a lot with that list.

 

As an example, my 1750 has 20 Strikes, 20 Interceptors, 1 Dreadknight, Grandmaster and Coteaz. If the game involved objectives, all I really have to do is hold one of my Strikes in Reserve so you couldn't touch it before it came down on my objective, and wipe your 23 Acolytes so its impossible for you to secure an objective.

 

If the game involved kill points, I'm bringing 7, while you're bringing 19.

[DumbleDoo]

I am not suggesting that the list i posted is the greatest. It was an illustration of how many neat things (e.g., paladins, purifiers, dreads) you can get if you take min sized henchmen as troops and you use the most undercosted HQ (Coteaz). Just look at how cheap this core is:

 

Coteaz = 100

6 x 3man acolyte squads in Psybacks = 372

3 x Psyfleman dreads = 405

 

Total = 877

 

From there you can invest a ton of points into elites to get your fill of dreads, pallies or purifiers.

[Something Wycked]

I also didn't suggest that your list was the greatest, nor did I suggest that its the worst ;) It certainly has some advantages, and if it perfectly fits someone's play style they can probably do well with it. I was just highlighting its inherent weaknesses, as you requested ;)

 

The two most common ways to win a game of 40k are objectives and kill points. This list is KP heavy, and it lacks tough objective-taking troops. It may do better in friendly, story-based games that have other victory conditions, but the spammy nature of the list (to me) suggests low- to mid-level competition, not friendly games, thus the nature of my reply ;)

 

Talking about the other goodies that can be taken using this list as a base is completely new information, you didn't mention it in the first post :P It could work, I suppose, with the hand of a deft general at the helm and some serious models beefing it up. Maybe a 10-strong Paladin unit will fit the bill?

[breng77]

IT is pretty much a copy of Neil Glistrap's 2k list that won the BFS GT and made top 8 at the Nova Open, brought down to 1750. IT is certainly an effective list when played correctly (I've seen it played). The list revolves around reserving the Acolytes, and then hiding them, going to ground in comver. The list relies on the fact that the Dreads, and Razorbacks throw out so much fire, that if you are spending time shooting at acolytes then you are probably not handling the real threats in the list. Then using the DCA to assault anythign that gets close to the firebase. IT is certainly not unbeatable (went 12-3 at the above mentioned GTs), but it is a very strong list build. My current build that I am working with at 1750 is.

 

Cotaez

 

2 x 10 Purifiers (4 Psycannons, 4 Halberds, 2 hammers) IN Psybolt Razorbacks

 

2x5 Death Cultists IN Psybolt Razorbacks

2 x 3 Acolytes in Chimeras

 

5 Strikes (psycannon) IN Psybolt Razorbacks

 

3 x Psyfleman Dreads.

 

A similar list but not quite so many Acolyte squads/ Dreads. The idea behind it is The purifiers usually combat squad (except in KP missions, and sometimes even then), The Psycannons and a hammer go into the Chimeras (stealing them on turn 1). The Halberds and a hammer into their own Psybacks. Then use the massed fire from the list with the DCA and Purifiers acting as counter assault elements. Strikes are in there to help with Deepstrike defense as well as providing a more durable scoring option.

[number6]

It's a mistake to think that MSU armies are bad because they have a lot of KPs. Actually, the more units you have the better your offensive and defensive capabilities. The enemy is swarmed with too many targets to effectively eliminate. It's undeniably true that it's easy to kill 3 Warriors. But with that much offense coming your way -- even in a KP game -- can you really afford to devote your 10-man Marine unit (whatever it happens to be) to wipe it out? Doing so means you aren't defending yourself against everything else coming your way.

 

MSU is the most powerful type of army build there is in ANY wargame. The fact that it also holds true for 40K should not be so consistently surprising ... it too is a wargame, after all. :)

[breng77]

The other thing to keep in mind with this style of list is what are you using to wipe out those henchmen and how are they getting there? This list eats transports so it is likely that you are walking. Now will this list potentially struggle against draigowing. Probably, especially in kps (though cotaez + oxi+ dca = lots of dead paladins if they make it into combat)

[DumbleDoo]

The biggest theoritical worry I have with the list I posted is that it has no real midfield presence other than a land raider. It seems like the list needs to do a lot of damage early in the game or it will get chewed up.

[breng77]

NOt really, the dreads are suprisingly resistant. It will also consistenly do damage with all the S8 shooting. However, it is not a sit in midfield army. IT is a sit a bit back and punish anything that moved toward midfield, with shooting and counter assaults from the DCA.

[Warp Angel]

Its a list I think that I could beat with a number of other lists, but it's not one I'd have fun playing against.

[DumbleDoo]

What about the list makes it unfun to play against? It doesn't seem to be overly heavy on tanks which is usually a common complaint.

[number6]

It isn't "overly heavy" in terms of the most competitive mechanized lists. Most armies I face, for example, will field around 10-15 AV units at 1850 pts (the most common points level I play at). This list has 11 AV units at 1750 pts, so it's right in the ballpark of "average for your typical mech list".

[Warp Angel]

3 Walkers, 6 Razorbacks

12 twin-linked S8 AP4 shots, 18 S6 AP4 shots.

 

And if at 2000 points, another 1000+ points of army.

 

Transports are not getting across the field. Hordes are getting obliterated. Successful play tactics are limited against the list - essentially, pop the dreads quickly, close with the razorbacks/acolytes, and hope that you don't have bad dice luck.

[breng77]

According to the guy who "popularized the list" It would struggle against AV 12+ spam (no way to reliably hurt Land Raiders, and Against AV 13 it is not that great.), against Razor spam, it wins more often than not. IT would also struggle against lists you rarely see. MEQ hordes (epspecially Blood Angels with FNP) as it does not have any shooting that ignores a 3+ save. These are GK issues in general, because for the most part GKs are relying on the odds.

[Something Wycked]

Successful play tactics are limited against the list - essentially, pop the dreads quickly, close with the razorbacks/acolytes, and hope that you don't have bad dice luck.

For me: close with the firebase (using TGS for Scout on my Interceptors/Dreadknight to save the Shunt move, or use LoS blocking terrain to cross the board safely, or just use the Shunt move to get over there and gain another TGS bonus), as far as possible from the DCAs to do what damage they can and make the DCA's come to me. The DCAs get in range, ideally the Psycannons pop the Land Raider to expose the DCAs to Heavy Incinerator fire, but more likely I will have to wrap the LR with Interceptors while the Dreadknight pops it with his Greatsword. Then its a matter of closing with and destroying units before getting shot to pieces.

 

Considering the first list posted will inflict 9-10 failed saves on MEQ in a turn of shooting on average just from the Razors and Dreads, it will be a positioning/LoS blocking and damage race at that point, but I feel I have an advantage from the beginning in much hardier Troops, bringing/depending on no Transports, and having a serious KP advantage.

 

But that's just me personally. You won't see many lists like mine at tourneys :cuss

[Warp Angel]

I'm not saying that it's not beatable. I'm saying that I wouldn't have any fun. The game would be predictable in how it progressed with little in the way of tactical options, with dice being the only real "variable" in the game. Playskill would count for less than I would like on both sides of the table.

 

Personal opinion and preference. Your mileage may vary.

[breng77]

The problem is that you need to go to the list. You cannot sit back and as such you are relying on being your opponent being out of position. THe game can go either way, but you are forced to play a certain way to win the game. YOu are right that it comes down to terrain. Also remeber things like Cotaez has Sanctuary, so charging the land raider is hardly a given (and the DCA have a larger charge range out of the raider than your Dreadknight or Interceptors. When I have seen the list played many games were close, (except those against armies like Dark Eldar, who just cannot weather that much fire power.) but in the end it usually did enough damage early on to be able to muster a late game advantage.

[Warp Angel]

The problem is that you need to go to the list. You cannot sit back and as such you are relying on being your opponent being out of position. THe game can go either way, but you are forced to play a certain way to win the game. YOu are right that it comes down to terrain. Also remeber things like Cotaez has Sanctuary, so charging the land raider is hardly a given (and the DCA have a larger charge range out of the raider than your Dreadknight or Interceptors. When I have seen the list played many games were close, (except those against armies like Dark Eldar, who just cannot weather that much fire power.) but in the end it usually did enough damage early on to be able to muster a late game advantage.

 

Your experience and my assessment of what it would be like seem to match.

[Something Wycked]

The problem is that you need to go to the list. You cannot sit back...

This is not an issue for me. :)

 

Of course charging the LR isn't a given... Except that my units have exactly the same mobility as the LR. It moves 12"... so do my units. It moves forward, putting my units in a bad position, I move back just as far- and I have the advantage that my units can move over terrain without slowing down. Unless it can balance on top of the terrain, it must go around. Meanwhile, the only thing it gets to shoot is the multimelta, while I can hit it with Psycannons or punish the other units around it with shooting while working on positioning against the LR.

 

THe game can go either way, but you are forced to play a certain way to win the game.

My list is designed around the need to adapt tactics to a wide variety of enemy armies; I am a Water Warrior at heart. I prefer to play in ways that put a monkey wrench in my opponents' plans rather than force my plans down their throat. What you see as a drawback I see as my strength :lol:

[DumbleDoo]

Do you guys think that this is in an inherently unbalanced list because of its lack of melta? After having used lots of melta for a long time, I am starting to question its worth but maybe that is only because land raiders seem to be on the decline around me.

[Warp Angel]

I'm very much a water style player. My primary lists are designed to flow into army weaknesses and overwhelm.

 

But the army is essentially the equivalent of a nail.

 

And you really only can deal with a nail in one way and that's to smash it with a hammer. There's no finesse to it and not a whole lot of fine points to consider. The Zero Day list you linked to gives you alpha strike capability which is nice, and I'd argue is essentially just a different hammer than I would use against the list.

 

Playing your list would still be an uninteresting game that would depend too much on dice luck for my liking.

[Warp Angel]

Do you guys think that this is in an inherently unbalanced list because of its lack of melta? After having used lots of melta for a long time, I am starting to question its worth but maybe that is only because land raiders seem to be on the decline around me.

 

I don't find it an unbalanced list. Depending on the supplemental force mix to the core of minimum henchmen and razorbacks supported by psyriflemen, you should be able to deal with just about anything. And even if you can't deal with a land raider, no single model (regardless of what it carries inside) should be able to defeat you. If you're dealing with multiple land-raiders with deathstar type units inside, then maybe blink twice.

 

But that list is even more unbalanced than this one or its variants ever could be.

[Something Wycked]

But the army is essentially the equivalent of a nail.

 

And you really only can deal with a nail in one way and that's to smash it with a hammer. There's no finesse to it and not a whole lot of fine points to consider.

Wholeheartedly agree. When a list has such a unified strength, such as this one (all-out shooting, basically) there really is only one overarching way to defeat it, even if that single method can be broken down into an infinite number of variations.

 

The Zero Day list you linked to gives you alpha strike capability which is nice, and I'd argue is essentially just a different hammer than I would use against the list.

I hope you also see that the Zero Day philosophy is just that- a philosophy. I feel that my personal "Zero Day" list (GKGM, Coteaz, 2xStrikes, #xInterceptors, #xPTDKs) lends itself to a varied tactical approach- my default strategy isn't to alpha strike every opponent, my default strategy isn't in the same shape as a hammer. My default strategy is shaped like H2O :P

 

Playing your list would still be an uninteresting game that would depend too much on dice luck for my liking.

Referring to my list or the OP's? I can't tell which you're referring to :)

 

Do you guys think that this is in an inherently unbalanced list because of its lack of melta? After having used lots of melta for a long time, I am starting to question its worth but maybe that is only because land raiders seem to be on the decline around me.

What Warp Angel said; melta isn't make-or-break on its own, particularly if your local meta is leaning away from needing it.

[breng77]

The issue with charging the raider is that the RCA have an effective charge range of 20". While yours is 18" at best. And yes you can stay back and fire with pay cannons but at that point you play into the hands of the dread list as it will out shoot you. The raider does not need to chase you just stay at >18".

[DumbleDoo]

I played the list tonight against a jump pack blood angel army that was lead by mephiston. My opponent had no shooting over 12 inches. As a result, I killed 2 of his 3 assault squads and 2 priests before they reached my lines. One of his assault squads charged a ven dread after shooting it in the face with a melta. The venerable roll turned a wreck into weapon destroyed. They stayed locked in assault for the remainder of the game. The venerable roll also turned a 6 into a 2 later in the game. Mephiston charged a ven dread, did nothing, and then got charged by DCAs who killed him before he swung (the OXI hit mephiston with psyouts. After that it was just mop up. Our primary objective was kill points and I lost 4 (2 acolyte squads and 2 razors). He lost a total off 8. He had 9 in his list.

 

The list reminds of a long range guard list.