What makes wolves cheesy?

[Roma]

Due to some annoying rule queries I have stopped playing BT and 40k in general till the new dex comes out. I am looking for a diffirent marine army to use. I tried chaos (lame), and made some nice blood angel lists, but i really dont want to convert all those jump packs. I constantly hear of SW being over powered and so on, but fliking throught, I dont see anything overly powerful. The troops with a free special weapon and counter-attack are nice, but nothing special. Can soemone point out the major strenght of the SW? And most importantly, those it all lie in special units like the thunderwolf cavlary, because small things like fenrisian wolves can be converted or proxied, but i can hardly make some thunderwolves.

 

I have land raiders, marines, vindis, rhinos, scouts ( wolf scouts) a drop pod, orks (wolves), land speeders, a dread (count as Bjorn), and terminators of all kinds (oh and razorbacks), so I have all the foundations, however will it work without special units? By this stage, these seem to be only thunderwolfves and canis wolfborn, so what am I missing that makes SW great?

[Iron Lord]

The little bits all combine.

 

Grey Hunters- extra attack thanks to having pistol, bolter, and sword (not that bad- CSMs have it too)

 

4 HQ choices can be taken instead of the 2 that all other 40K armies are permitted to take

 

Long Fangs being able to split fire.

 

And a few others- but these are the first that spring to mind.

[hendrik]

eating nacho cheese while you play

[breng77]

A lot of it has to do with point costing.

 

Grey Hunters are cheaper than Tactical marines, Get more attacks, Counter attack, can take special weapons in a 5 man squad (free Special in a 10 man) As such are typically considered better.

 

Long Fangs can take 5 Heavy weapons, are cheaper than Devistators, can split fire, and have counter attack.

 

Because 5 man Troop squads are effective SWs can run a mech list better than most.

 

Many people consider Thunder Cav over powered.

 

Wolf Scouts, are as cheap as vanilla scouts, and have better outflanking, better WS and BS.

 

Jaws of the World Wolf = one shoting Monsterous creatures. ICs with eternal warrior.

 

For the most part people just consider them generally undercosted/over powered in comparison to other Marine Dexes.

 

As far as rules queries for Templars what rules, the BT army is fairly straight forward.

[eyeslikethunder]

In a nutshell its that long fangs and grey hunters are a little too cheap.

 

and Runepriests can give certain armies a very hard time.

 

 

If you are looking uber units with uber powers for a good price you will not find them in c:sw.

 

Thunderwolves are alright but a little pricey when you buy them what they need to do well.

[Wulfebane]

Grey Hunters- extra attack thanks to having pistol, bolter, and sword (not that bad- CSMs have it too)

No. They don't. Not all three.

 

 

In a nutshell its that long fangs and grey hunters are a little too cheap.

 

and Runepriests can give certain armies a very hard time.

 

 

If you are looking uber units with uber powers for a good price you will not find them in c:sw.

 

Thunderwolves are alright but a little pricey when you buy them what they need to do well.

For what LFs and GHs can offer, I agree they're too cheap. And with the LFs able to take 5 hvy weapons in a 6man pack, the rise of razor- and missile-spam became prevalent. For HQ choices, Rune Priests have some of the best psychic abilities and counter-psychic wargear in the game.

 

All in all, ELT has the best answer thus far.

[Iron Lord]

Grey Hunters- extra attack thanks to having pistol, bolter, and sword (not that bad- CSMs have it too)

No. They don't. Not all three.

 

Check the CSM codex- I've looked and the following are listed as having Bolter, Close combat weapon, Bolt pistol:

 

Chosen

Chaos Space Marines

Plague Marines

Noise Marines

Havocs

[Wulfebane]

My mistake. I thought when you put CSM, you meant Codex: Space Marine (C:SM), which I translated to SM tac squads.

[Vantius]

I say if you like what you see from our codex, give it a shot. Don't worry about what people are saying.

 

Space Wolves are good at everything. Perhaps not uber amazing, but good. That's why I'd say we have the best codex. However, I simply play Space Wolves because I love their fluff and look, and the rest falls into place. Perhaps it is not the codex that is overpowered, but the players who are using it. :)

[Wulf Vengis]

^ This. Here here!

[Ghent]

I think the fact that Space Wolves are good, not great at everything is what makes people think they're over power. A group of Grey Hunters can really take on just about anything and do well and adapt to most situations.

[Roma]

Thanks all for your advice, I didn't notice that grey hunters have uber grit. I will make some demo lists and give them a go. Also didn't realise rune priest potential.

[Max_Dammit]

Don't get to used to our dex, or you'll never turn back ;)

[Freakiq]

I think the fact that Space Wolves are good, not great at everything is what makes people think they're over power. A group of Grey Hunters can really take on just about anything and do well and adapt to most situations.

 

Being cheaper than Tactical marines while having Counter-Attack and close combat weapons with no drawback helps too.

 

And no, lack of Combat/Chapter Tactics is not a drawback.

[JamesI]

eating nacho cheese while you play

Best answer to a cheese question ever.

 

 

 

Wolves have some nice advantages. Particularly uber-grit and counter attack making them really good at close shooting and they can accept the charge from those who survive the shooting well. 2 meltaguns/flamers/plasmaguns in a squad helps as well, something normal marines can't do. But they don't come with a built in sergeant, so if you want a sergeant (and to fit in a rhino/drop pod) you can't get 2 special weapons. It balances generally.

 

 

Long fangs are a nice bonus with split fire, but lack the ability to take bolter carrying meatshields.

[Wysten]

I think the fact that Space Wolves are good, not great at everything is what makes people think they're over power. A group of Grey Hunters can really take on just about anything and do well and adapt to most situations.

 

Being cheaper than Tactical marines while having Counter-Attack and close combat weapons with no drawback helps too.

 

And no, lack of Combat/Chapter Tactics is not a drawback.

 

It is a drawback, as packs can't be broken down to seize objectives. Partly preventing triple melta gunboats with a plain Grey Hunter 5 man squad being left behind to sit on target. So any objective squatters has to be improvised (e.g. When do you pull a squad back for the home objective?) or designed into the list (5 man grey hunter pack). Not to mention the leadership 8 unless an elite slot is used. The same place used for the majority of the interesting stuff goes on (E.g, Fast attack is largely Speeders or Thunder Wolves, Heavy Slot is always Long Fangs unless one has a good reason otherwise)

 

Of course, these side effects are largely forgiveable for a generally all round solid unit that really is the bread and butter of all Space Wolf armies. Grey Hunters only really need to have their bases covered for what they lack (Long Fangs and several other units can provide the reach they lack, and neuter the foes that they hate) Only thing that is probably better is GK (I mean, no other codex can do razorspam like they can, and still have room for a rock and the best dreadnorts ever, and quite possibly make the dreadnorts troops too, 4 rerollable missles and a immunity to shaking.), with GH being equal to most DE troop choices and possibly Necrons.

[breng77]

Wolves have some nice advantages. Particularly uber-grit and counter attack making them really good at close shooting and they can accept the charge from those who survive the shooting well. 2 meltaguns/flamers/plasmaguns in a squad helps as well, something normal marines can't do. But they don't come with a built in sergeant, so if you want a sergeant (and to fit in a rhino/drop pod) you can't get 2 special weapons. It balances generally.

 

The only reason this does not really balance is the inclusion of a special weapon in a 5 man squad. SO many people run 5 GH + a wolf guard in a Razorback, and Marines simply cannot do that. It is not that marines have no advantages it is that they don't really stack up for the points. Grey Hunters should really be 16-17ish points for what they get.

 

Lets compare them to Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines.

 

Tactical marines are 16 points (the sarge is an additional 10 points that is built in (so the sarge is 26 points), this is another short fall, a SW sarge is only 18 points, though he does take up an elite slot, so we can call that a wash I suppose.) -The come stock with ATSKNF, COmbat Squads, and Combat tactics. They cannot take special/heavy weapons unless you take 10 models in a squad.

 

Grey Hunters are 15- Get ATSKNF Counter attack, acute senses, an extra CC attack, they can take a special weapon at 5 strong, and 2 at 10 (snd weapon free).

 

Chaos Marines are 15- they are LD 9 (I believe), they can take both heavy and special weapons (special at 5 I think), don't come stock with a champion, (10 pt upgrade), have BP and CCW, lack ATSKNF, can take Icons to buff the unit (for additional points)

 

SO in this comparison

We can probably call counter attack, and acute senses a wash for combat tactics and combat squads. Vanilla marines do get larger transports which helps at times, but needing to take 10 men to get much out of the squad is a big deal (This means Vanilla 2 troops using tacticals runs almost 400 points vs 150 for Wolves, also make Razorbacks more effective in the wolf dex.) SO really we are looking at being cheaper by a point, better in hand to hand, and close range fire, in exchange for the ability to use a heavy weapon. These models should at least be the same point cost if not more expensive than nilla marines. (at 17 points 5 GH would still be cheaper than 5 Tactical marines.)

 

Looking at the chaos marines basically GHs lose the ability to take a heavy weapon, gain the razorback, have less LD, but LD is less important thanks to ATSKNF which is huge (not being swept), get counter attack and acute senses for free. Again I would say GH should be at least 2 points more.

[breng77]

with GH being equal to most DE troop choices and possibly Necrons.

 

Really... Grey hunters are equad to DE and Necron Troops!!!!

 

Sorry they are way better than either necron troop choice. THey are also better than DE warriors, and better all around than Wyches. THough this is closer. Necron Troops are really not all that good (Warriors are cheap, and can at best glance vehicles, cannot assault anything except maybe tau, Immortals are better than warriors but 2 points more expensive than Grey Hunters.)

 

As for the GKs, GHs are every bit as good as the standard GK troops. Point for point they usually win the assault against strike squads, and do just fine against the termies as far as overall utility.

 

GHs are among the best troops in the whole game (GKs are the only army that is really close.)

[dswanick]

Wolves have some nice advantages. Particularly uber-grit and counter attack making them really good at close shooting and they can accept the charge from those who survive the shooting well. 2 meltaguns/flamers/plasmaguns in a squad helps as well, something normal marines can't do. But they don't come with a built in sergeant, so if you want a sergeant (and to fit in a rhino/drop pod) you can't get 2 special weapons. It balances generally.

 

The only reason this does not really balance is the inclusion of a special weapon in a 5 man squad. SO many people run 5 GH + a wolf guard in a Razorback, and Marines simply cannot do that. It is not that marines have no advantages it is that they don't really stack up for the points. Grey Hunters should really be 16-17ish points for what they get.

 

Lets compare them to Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines.

 

Tactical marines are 16 points (the sarge is an additional 10 points that is built in (so the sarge is 26 points), this is another short fall, a SW sarge is only 18 points, though he does take up an elite slot, so we can call that a wash I suppose.) -The come stock with ATSKNF, COmbat Squads, and Combat tactics. They cannot take special/heavy weapons unless you take 10 models in a squad.

 

Grey Hunters are 15- Get ATSKNF Counter attack, acute senses, an extra CC attack, they can take a special weapon at 5 strong, and 2 at 10 (snd weapon free).

 

Chaos Marines are 15- they are LD 9 (I believe), they can take both heavy and special weapons (special at 5 I think), don't come stock with a champion, (10 pt upgrade), have BP and CCW, lack ATSKNF, can take Icons to buff the unit (for additional points)

 

SO in this comparison

We can probably call counter attack, and acute senses a wash for combat tactics and combat squads. Vanilla marines do get larger transports which helps at times, but needing to take 10 men to get much out of the squad is a big deal (This means Vanilla 2 troops using tacticals runs almost 400 points vs 150 for Wolves, also make Razorbacks more effective in the wolf dex.) SO really we are looking at being cheaper by a point, better in hand to hand, and close range fire, in exchange for the ability to use a heavy weapon. These models should at least be the same point cost if not more expensive than nilla marines. (at 17 points 5 GH would still be cheaper than 5 Tactical marines.)

 

Looking at the chaos marines basically GHs lose the ability to take a heavy weapon, gain the razorback, have less LD, but LD is less important thanks to ATSKNF which is huge (not being swept), get counter attack and acute senses for free. Again I would say GH should be at least 2 points more.

The problem is that you can't validly compare one unit type in a vacuum in a game that pits groups of different units supporting one another. The Tactical squad/Grey Hunter squad are designed to play differently while supported by other units in the game. Those supporting units affect the capabilities and value of any unit support, and the Space Wolves Codex has some limitations on supporting units that C:SM doesn't. The Chaos Space Marine squad is from a different generation of Codex published during an earlier version of the game (albeit designed with the next version in mind).

[Son of Rawl]

eating nacho cheese while you play

 

Damn you hendrik, want bloody nachos now.

 

I agree though that Grey Hunters are the best troop choices in the game so far, their benefits far out weigh their restrictions, especailly when it comes to costs.

 

Also four missile launcher Long Fangs are really starting to annoy me, seeing three squads of these in each wolf list at my local.

[the jeske]

The problem is that you can't validly compare one unit type in a vacuum in a game that pits groups of different units supporting one another. The Tactical squad/Grey Hunter squad are designed to play differently while supported by other units in the game.

you can build a chaos list with same weapon set ups and a SW army and the SW army will get a free dakka pred over the chaos one .

[librisrouge]

Codex: Chaos Space Marines was made under the same mentality as Dark Angels ("If we take away options and make thing expensive the players will love us.") It was one big DERP with a couple of exceptions (lash, obliterators, Plague Marines) that you tend to see in every army.

 

Space Wolves don't have any Unstoppable Forces or Immovable Objects but they do feature an abundance of quality in every unit. CSM take plague marines so prominently because they're the only troop they've got that competes in a serious tournament environment. SW don't take Blood Claws because...they aren't Grey Hunters. Not due to any fault in Blood Claws (they're pretty sweet) but because they have a unit with 10% more quality.

 

Other codexes eliminate units as garbage that aren't competative, Space Wolves prioritize based on effectiveness.

[elithren]

Most often it's a 5th edition codex vs a 4th edition or older codex. You dont really hear DE or GH players cry out that their codex is subpar when going against SW. With the exception of tyranids, 5th edition codexs are on a different level of play then any of the other codexes because the style has changed. They are starting to bring pack all the crazy rules and the various unique items per army that were common back in like 2nd edition and 4th edition books are vary plain. As everyone else has said, the SW codex is very balanced, with no unit being the "no take at any cost" kid left out of the party. Everything can work with the other components of the codex.

[dswanick]

As everyone else has said, the SW codex is very balanced, with no unit being the "no take at any cost" kid left out of the party. Everything can work with the other components of the codex.

Well, except Iron Priests...

:)

[breng77]

The problem is that you can't validly compare one unit type in a vacuum in a game that pits groups of different units supporting one another. The Tactical squad/Grey Hunter squad are designed to play differently while supported by other units in the game. Those supporting units affect the capabilities and value of any unit support, and the Space Wolves Codex has some limitations on supporting units that C:SM doesn't. The Chaos Space Marine squad is from a different generation of Codex published during an earlier version of the game (albeit designed with the next version in mind).

 

The problem is that in general SWs get cheaper/more points efficient supporting units than codex marines. The only thing that Marines have that SWs really want for is bigger transport capacity, and cheap TH/SS termies. I see no real limitations on supporting units in the SW dex that SM dex does not share, only really that because their troops are cheaper, and their supporting options are cheaper (in general). Codex marines (in general) are over costed for what you get (see the same units in the BA codex for example). I understand that all codicies are not equal, but I still don't see that the wolves dex is gimped in any way to make up for cheaper and better troops. There is a reason why you see more SWs and GKs on top tables at large tournies and then SM armies. I find it hard to believe that anyone believes that the game would not be slightly more balanced if Long Fangs and GHs cost 16-17 points per model rather than the current 15 points. At that point you are looking at an additional 5 - 10 points per 5 man squad, so over 3 HS choices and 6 troops you are looking at 45-90 points. That would make quite a difference IMO.

 

I mean I really have no issue with the wolves dex. I in general just have an issue with the fact that GW creates there books in a vaccuum and does not properly test their books.