Roma Posted December 30, 2011 Author Share Posted December 30, 2011 I have made a 1000, point army that fits my model collection and will post it soon. I am loving the way they seem to play on the table, even if I never liked the fluff. This isprobably the most satisfying list I made ever, so might be sticking with wolves for a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elithren Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Lies! Littlebitz (I think it's him) has proven to be very effective with a TW iron priest group so HA! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Can you really say that a SW 'Sergeant' taking up an Elite slot is a drawback when you can take ten of them in one slot, farm three or four of them off to lead other units and make a pretty decent unit for your Lord to lead from the rest? EDIT - Also, take into consideration that a SW 'Sergeant' costs over 25% less than a regular Sergeant and has access to much better wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I mean I really have no issue with the wolves dex. I in general just have an issue with the fact that GW creates there books in a vaccuum and does not properly test their books. You're preaching to the choir, on that count. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 EDIT - Also, take into consideration that a SW 'Sergeant' costs over 25% less than a regular Sergeant and has access to much better wargear. Sure, but you have to take at least three of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eirik_Xenobane Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 What makes our codex better than the other Marines is the fact that we got Phil Kelly as opposed to Matt "lets ignore 30 years of 40k fluff" Ward. Sorry, had to get that out of my system. Wolves can outshoot anything they can not outfight and outfight anything they can not outshoot. Basicly when you discover this truism and remmeber we are NOT a close combat army, you will kick arse. Tsun Tzu said it best "Know your enemy and know yourself" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 EDIT - Also, take into consideration that a SW 'Sergeant' costs over 25% less than a regular Sergeant and has access to much better wargear. Sure, but you have to take at least three of them. Again, not really a drawback. You have to take at least two troop units and, AFAIK, most people take at least three. Take ten WG, ship three or four off to lead your other squads and you have a six or seven strong extremely-customisable retinue for your Lord. Or give them TDA and away you go. What else are you going to take in your Elite slots? Three Dreadnoughts? Is an Iron Priest going to bump your WG out? A Lone Wolf? Are you going to moan because you can only take a WG and two Scout squads that can enter play behind the enemy? The SW Codex is, after Grey Knights, easily the strongest in the game and, frankly, moaning about anything in it comes across as extremely entitled and whiney. Don't take that personally, it isn't intended that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 The SW Codex is, after Grey Knights, easily the strongest in the game and, frankly, moaning about anything in it comes across as extremely entitled and whiney. Don't take that personally, it isn't intended that way. And yet it is, when you take pointing out the cloud inside the silver lining as "moaning". Is C:SW a good dex? Yes. But so are C:SM, C:BA, and even C:IG. I play them all, and frankly none of them really outshines the others for me. I have C:GK also, but the models are in a shambles in the basement, so I'll reserve judgment on them until I've played them and tracked what they do to my WLD. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 The SW Codex is, after Grey Knights, easily the strongest in the game and, frankly, moaning about anything in it comes across as extremely entitled and whiney. Don't take that personally, it isn't intended that way. And yet it is, when you take pointing out the cloud inside the silver lining as "moaning". Can you tell me what to have for dinner? I cant make my mind up and you apparently know it better than I do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 The SW Codex is, after Grey Knights, easily the strongest in the game and, frankly, moaning about anything in it comes across as extremely entitled and whiney. Don't take that personally, it isn't intended that way. And yet it is, when you take pointing out the cloud inside the silver lining as "moaning". Can you tell me what to have for dinner? I cant make my mind up and you apparently know it better than I do. New York Strip, medium rare, baked potato, w/sour cream and chives but no bacon bits, asparagus spears. Don't take this personally, but it sounds like you don't know what you should be having for dinner... :P See how that comes across? You can tack "don't take it personally" onto just about any statement but if its a belittling statement that disclaimer doesn't have the weight of the words used. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 EDIT - Also, take into consideration that a SW 'Sergeant' costs over 25% less than a regular Sergeant and has access to much better wargear. Sure, but you have to take at least three of them. Again, not really a drawback. You have to take at least two troop units and, AFAIK, most people take at least three. Take ten WG, ship three or four off to lead your other squads and you have a six or seven strong extremely-customisable retinue for your Lord. Or give them TDA and away you go. What else are you going to take in your Elite slots? Three Dreadnoughts? Is an Iron Priest going to bump your WG out? A Lone Wolf? Are you going to moan because you can only take a WG and two Scout squads that can enter play behind the enemy? The SW Codex is, after Grey Knights, easily the strongest in the game and, frankly, moaning about anything in it comes across as extremely entitled and whiney. Don't take that personally, it isn't intended that way. It's a draw back because it eliminates an elite slot if you want to add a "sarge" to your marine squad. It forces you take take 3 choices that can field them as well, or take a full squad of Wolf Guard and use the reminder as a unit, which in itself really isn't that much more effective than another squad of Grey Hunters unless you kit them out as terminators. Nobody is "moaning" about taking Wolf Guard here, it was a point to your whiney question. Maybe I would like to take three dreadnoughts. Maybe I would like to take three scouts so I can out flank. Well, if I want a "sarge" in my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws I can't. Fact of the matter is, it IS a draw back in some regard because it limits what you can take in your elite slot. So, to answer your original whiney "OMG SPACE WOLVES ARE OP/CHEESY" question: Yes, you can call it a draw back, because it is. It doesn't matter what your "intentions" were. You come off as a whiney :P when someone was trying to make a relevant point about the fact that it limits your elite choices and forces you to take at least three of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Space Wolves are part of the big three for 40k, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, and us. Probably in that order of power level. Blood Angels are a level above Space Marines. Chaos Space Marines should probably play counts as Space Wolves if they want any variety in their armies. Actually Space Wolves don't have a huge variety either. Rune Priests, Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs. Units with Claw in the title aren't worth the cost of making then taking, considering that a box of Space Wolves makes either Grey Hunters or Blood Claws, and the points cost is pretty close too. We got a solid list from Phil Kelly, but to be honest I wish he'd put a little more thought into points costing and balancing them against other armies. Grey Hunters should be 16 or 17 points a model, Long Fangs 17 or 18, Blood Claws 14 (maybe 13). The problem with saying that certain units across armies reflect different values because of their different support lies in the fact that Space Wolf players love taking Grey Hunters. They're a workhorse unit that does their job. Tactical Squads are units that Space Marine players only take because Scout units are worse. My Marine army takes a biker Captain just so my troops are bikes (which actually are quite good). They call it a tactical tax for a reason. They're can't even be called a jack-of-all-trades unit, because they don't do anything particularly well. Two units, in Rhinos, with free flamer and multi-melta. Park them midfield and call it a day. Of course without twin-linking (hello Vulkan) melta weapons need to be taken in multiples to get a chance of doing damage. Space Wolves do, outside bikes Marines do not. Even bikers aren't reliable. I fired my multi-melta at a Monolith over three turns. Miss, hit then roll 13 on the penetration roll, miss, particle whip that unit out of existence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 It's a draw back because... Choices that have benefits and drawbacks are not flatly negative. The benefits may also come with drawbacks, but they are not, in and of themselves, just drawbacks on the army. ^_^ You have a choice between: 1. SW units, in all their undercosted glory, without WG leaders, with all Elite slots free or 2. SW units, in all their undercosted glory, with or without WG leaders, and/or a pack of WG operating independently, without all Elite slots free. What other MEQ codex has the option to add an undercosted non-IC unit leader to an undercosted squad? ;) If you think your WG are a drawback, you may be playing the wrong codex :lol: Depending on if the rest of the codex suits your play style enough, of course. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Dammit Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Lets keep it civil please, no personal attacks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Nobody is "moaning" about taking Wolf Guard here, it was a point to your whiney question. Maybe I would like to take three dreadnoughts. Maybe I would like to take three scouts so I can out flank. Well, if I want a "sarge" in my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws I can't why would you want 3 units of scouts or 3 dreads in a SW to begin with 0_o . tempsets give you more shots and more movment then rifle man [which you dont need to begin with because you can spam LF] and a third unit of scouts , in how many points games 2500+ thats apo and in apo you dont worry about FoC .at anything less it is better to take a cyclon termi leader for the LF and get even more shots out of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Nobody is "moaning" about taking Wolf Guard here, it was a point to your whiney question. Maybe I would like to take three dreadnoughts. Maybe I would like to take three scouts so I can out flank. Well, if I want a "sarge" in my Grey Hunters or Blood Claws I can't why would you want 3 units of scouts or 3 dreads in a SW to begin with 0_o . tempsets give you more shots and more movment then rifle man [which you dont need to begin with because you can spam LF] and a third unit of scouts , in how many points games 2500+ thats apo and in apo you dont worry about FoC .at anything less it is better to take a cyclon termi leader for the LF and get even more shots out of them. Thanks. When will you be sending me the army list of what I should be doing? I have a game tomorrow, so I need to know which units I should use and what I want to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 I think the fact that Space Wolves are good, not great at everything is what makes people think they're over power. A group of Grey Hunters can really take on just about anything and do well and adapt to most situations. Being cheaper than Tactical marines while having Counter-Attack and close combat weapons with no drawback helps too. And no, lack of Combat/Chapter Tactics is not a drawback. LD 8, lack of heavy weapon options, and fewer attacks for our SCCWs all are though. To quote Deptcharge though "there is no cheese". Theres nothing in the C:SW that cant be countered by the other books out there. Wether people choose to use those units and tactics that would allow them to do so reliably isnt my business or my problem. Ive heard LFs having splitfire is over powered- at the same time I know that theyre fragile, and if my enemy has brought the longrange firepower or infiltrating units he should have theyll be targeted... and Ill put what threats I can on the board to keep them safe, but in the end thats where the players come in not the codex. Ive heard the cheaper than a tac squad argument... and frankly, I dont care. I can find a much more significant discount compared to C:SW in other units in C:SM, and C:BA. There are alot of things that even these two units out, including the elite slot for seargents issue. 4 HQs? What a great way to sink alot of points into relatively few wounds. DE players can now cackle with glee as you plop down 4 Thunderlords onto the table.... etc. If your metagame allows this to be overpowering then the people in your area should pick up new tactics or be less focused on standard marines. etc etc etc. Its a strong codex yes, and its fairly well balanced all around, with the small issue of our scoring bloodclaws. Certainly not better or worse than C:IG or C:BA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 [In a nutshell its that long fangs and grey hunters are a little too cheap. and Runepriests can give certain armies a very hard time. If you are looking uber units with uber powers for a good price you will not find them in c:sw. Thunderwolves are alright but a little pricey when you buy them what they need to do well. All in all, ELT has the best answer thus far. Thx wulfebane Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 What can be said about cheese... Cheese tends to melt if you heat it up enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Well first there are the Grey Hunters, the soft, creamy cheese that can be managed to handle anything. Then there are the Long Fangs, that crumbly, vintage cheese that has taken time to mature into something special...ok I'll stop now :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyedens Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 why would you want 3 units of scouts or 3 dreads in a SW to begin with 0_o . tempsets give you more shots and more movment then rifle man [which you dont need to begin with because you can spam LF] and a third unit of scouts , in how many points games 2500+ thats apo and in apo you dont worry about FoC .at anything less it is better to take a cyclon termi leader for the LF and get even more shots out of them. For the Win! Thats why. Nothing is cooler then Bjorn as HQ with 3 buddies with Assault cannons, dread ccw with heavy flamers. I dare you to try to pack more awesome into a game of 40k! Add a Grey Hunter pack let them sit back and watch all the dreads drop in by Drop pod. I agree that in this era of net list and everyone trying to build the perfect list that will always win the SW codex can be exploited very easily (fing missile spam), but for players that like it for the fluff and to be able to fun things with it it is not overpowered. It lets me do ridiculous builds that are fluffy and fun and still win as much as I lose. I don't think the deficiency is with the codex but with players who use and abuse it by ignoring the fluff and making uber lists.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 why would you want 3 units of scouts or 3 dreads in a SW to begin with 0_o . tempsets give you more shots and more movment then rifle man [which you dont need to begin with because you can spam LF] and a third unit of scouts , in how many points games 2500+ thats apo and in apo you dont worry about FoC .at anything less it is better to take a cyclon termi leader for the LF and get even more shots out of them. For the Win! Thats why. Nothing is cooler then Bjorn as HQ with 3 buddies with Assault cannons, dread ccw with heavy flamers. I dare you to try to pack more awesome into a game of 40k! Add a Grey Hunter pack let them sit back and watch all the dreads drop in by Drop pod. I agree that in this era of net list and everyone trying to build the perfect list that will always win the SW codex can be exploited very easily (fing missile spam), but for players that like it for the fluff and to be able to fun things with it it is not overpowered. It lets me do ridiculous builds that are fluffy and fun and still win as much as I lose. I don't think the deficiency is with the codex but with players who use and abuse it by ignoring the fluff and making uber lists.. And as Grey Mage said, other players who also netlist and refuse to change up to counter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emptyedens Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Woops forgot that part, but yes you're right about that or Grey Mage was.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Nothing is cooler then Bjorn as HQ with 3 buddies with Assault cannons, dread ccw with heavy flamers. I dare you to try to pack more awesome into a game of 40k! Add a Grey Hunter pack let them sit back and watch all the dreads drop in by Drop pod. I am so gunna make this list now. Why has it never occurred to me to make a 3 man pack out of dreads?? They could be like Bjorn's former WG retinue! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Here you go. You want "Space Wolves cheese"? Here's some extra sharp "Space Wolves Cheese" :lol: : Wolf Lord (Frost Weapon, Belt of Russ, Runic Armor, WTT, WTN, TWM, Melta Bombs, Saga of the Bear)2 Thunderwolf Cav (SS/TH & SS) Wolf Lord (Thunder hammer, Wolf claw, Belt of Russ, Runic Armor, WTT, WTN, TWM, Saga of the Beastslayer) 2 Thunderwolf Cav (SS/TH & SS) Rune Priest (Runic Armor, WTT, Chooser, Jaws, Living Lightning) 5 Grey Hunters (Power Weapon, Plasmagun, Standard, MotW) w/ Razorback (LC/TLPG, HK) Rune Priest (Runic Armor, WTT, Jaws, Murderous Hurricane) 5 Grey Hunters (Power weapon, Plasmagun, Standard, MotW) w/ Razorback (LC/TLPG, HK) 4X 5 Grey Hunters (Power weapon, Meltagun, Standard, MotW) w/ Razorback (LC/TLPG, HK) Wolf Guard Pack 4X PAWG (CMelta, Power fist) attached to GH packs 2X PAWG (CMelta, PF, Melta Bombs) attached to Wolf Scouts 1X PAWG attached to LF pack 2X TDAWG (CML) attached to LF packs "Lone Wolf" Arjac Rockfist w/ Land Raider (EA, HK, MMelta) 2X 5 Wolf Scouts (2 Power Weapons, Melta Bombs, MotW, Meltagun) Land Speeder Squadron (3X Typhoons) 3X 6 Long Fangs (5 ML) w/ Razorback (LC/TLPG, HK) Total : 4,500ish points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/2/#findComment-2954894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.