Wysten Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Then stop adding to the offtopicness, and post more ontopic then. :D I don't think the codex is 'cheesy', but, as always there are some players who will try to break a list or read the rules in the manner that benefits them most. It can be called competitive or gamemanship, but really life is just too short. Wasn't directed at you, just a statement that was aimed at everyone to get everyone back at the subject at hand. Depends really, I don't tolerate cheating in any form, but don't really have any problems with optimalisation, provided it's for the correct enviroment. I would be weary of being a completely optimalised list to a causal game, but anything goes for a tourney unless they have additional rules against it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" WLK Aye, only for Wolf Scouts though, Grey Hunters are except from this that is only really relivent to one special character not in the space wolves codex. So by extention the ruling error in question (Termeis joining a outflanking squad) isn't a issue, since the only squad that could Outflank probits them joining, hence no unit in the space wolves codex excluding external material allows termies to join a Scout squad.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" WLK Aye, only for Wolf Scouts though, Grey Hunters are except from this that is only really relivent to one special character not in the space wolves codex. So by extention the ruling error in question (Termeis joining a outflanking squad) isn't a issue, since the only squad that could Outflank probits them joining. Yea, with Bran you outflank a GH unit... but then you cannot put them in a transport, so can only effect so much of the table (if you actually end up on the correct table edge). if you get the wrong end, you either have to hustle the GH unit on foot to the fight, or waste arjac's points completely. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" WLK Finally, I knew it was too good to be true, thanks for the heads up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" WLK Finally, I knew it was too good to be true, thanks for the heads up. No problem, it actually bothers me that Wolf player pulls this kind of BS. we have a excellent codex and they are still looking to cheat people (i only say cheat because this was FAQ in the previous dex, and is very clear in the current dex. it takes amazing talent or a bad attitude to mess this up) EDIT: please list everything your local wolf is doing so we can "mythbust" this crap. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 exactly if he does not use his SCCW he gets rending. It does not if he has a SCCW he does not have rending You cant choose to not use a SCCW unless you have another one. They dont have "Rending Weapons". If you want to play hardball RAW with it then TWMs and TWC dont have rending at all, because there is no such special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" Aye, only for Wolf Scouts though, Grey Hunters are except from this that is only really relivent to one special character not in the space wolves codex. So by extention the ruling error in question (Termeis joining a outflanking squad) isn't a issue, since the only squad that could Outflank probits them joining. Yea, with Bran you outflank a GH unit... but then you cannot put them in a transport, so can only effect so much of the table (if you actually end up on the correct table edge). if you get the wrong end, you either have to hustle the GH unit on foot to the fight, or waste arjac's points completely. WLK But, with Bran those Grey Hunters get Behind Enemy Lines, not the standard Outflank table, so there is a pretty low risk of coming somewhere too far out of position. It would be worth it to at least attempt the move with a WGT pack leader, or even Arjak attached. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Outflanking arjak with wolf scouts sounds pretty cheesy, and its not even optimization, as there are no rules against it to be interpreted. it sounds cheesy, and is illegal according to the wolf codex. page 86, under the Pack Leaders rule, ends with "Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor, with jump packs or mounted on Space Marine bikes may not join Wolf Scout units" Aye, only for Wolf Scouts though, Grey Hunters are except from this that is only really relivent to one special character not in the space wolves codex. So by extention the ruling error in question (Termeis joining a outflanking squad) isn't a issue, since the only squad that could Outflank probits them joining. Yea, with Bran you outflank a GH unit... but then you cannot put them in a transport, so can only effect so much of the table (if you actually end up on the correct table edge). if you get the wrong end, you either have to hustle the GH unit on foot to the fight, or waste arjac's points completely. WLK But, with Bran those Grey Hunters get Behind Enemy Lines, not the standard Outflank table, so there is a pretty low risk of coming somewhere too far out of position. It would be worth it to at least attempt the move with a WGT pack leader, or even Arjak attached. Valerian oops, my bad, thought outflank and not behind enemy lines. okay, forgeworld made a bit of a boo-boo here. i am pretty sure we can live with it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 To be honest, with just that Grey Hunter pack outflanking, I would say thats enough threat, due to the randomness of reserves being a good ally and foe at the same time that putting a termie in there makes it a fairly hefty investment. Never mind a 148 special character that makes the group godly, 300+ unit, that may not see optimal use. It might be cheesy to use it that way, but nothing prohibits grey hunters from being used that way in a game that allows external resources to be used and in the same token, it's a external resource that the oppoment can opt for you to not use it. A fun character to be tested out for all kinks and create interesting tactics on a swirling battle field that is ultimately quite harmless fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 To be honest, with just that Grey Hunter pack outflanking, I would say thats enough threat, due to the randomness of reserves being a good ally and foe at the same time that putting a termie in there makes it a fairly hefty investment. Never mind a 148 special character that makes the group godly, 300+ unit, that may not see optimal use. 188 points for Arjak, so, you'll be pushing 400 points when you attach him to that (no doubt) pimped out Grey Hunter pack. It might be cheesy to use it that way, but nothing prohibits grey hunters from being used that way in a game that allows external resources to be used and in the same token, it's a external resource that the oppoment can opt for you to not use it. A fun character to be tested out for all kinks and create interesting tactics on a swirling battle field that is ultimately quite harmless fun. Indeed, you're getting this benefit by paying for Bran, who is pretty decent, but not an incredible character himself. As it stand in standard games you can already attach Arjak to a unit of pimped Grey Hunters and land them pretty reliably at the enemy rear or flank via Drop Pod in turn 1; the BEL deployment isn't only slightly cooler than what can already be done. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Didn't know his points cost was that high, was probably thinking of Lukas. Heh But yeah, he's a pretty good combatant that for once doesn't really have a gimmic based on meeting condictions, but rather a tactical advantage that can make everyone in squad tougher (missles? Meet my 3++/4++ Save with stealth) and a behind enermy lines Grey Hunter squad become very interesting. (3 specials or two and a heavy, a power/chainfist, Mark and Banner. Just over 200 points? Yes please!) and a fairly decent combat character (he is probably the most killy rhinoable guy I've seen in Space Wolves aside from Ragnar perhaps, 5 rerolling strength 5 attacks that ignore armour, or up to 6 strength 7 attacks that don't ignore armour.) The key with the Hunter squad is pretty much not to overdo them. As said, only the element of surprise will make them any more effective then a drop pod as the 3 bodies you can field isn't really better then cover and a first turn drop, unless you really wanted to randomly appear part way through the battle and, to excuse the Ork termenolgy, 'it dem in dar hurty bitz wen dey lest epect it. But yeah, I would hardly call that cheesey. Even if you had a termie in the (Grey Hunter) squad, it's simply getting back what you put in. Probably more cheesy to go Rune Priest and use all those points for more Grey Hunters and razors instead. Heheh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Lukas is worse, and can only be attached to BCs anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Lukas is worse, and can only be attached to BCs anyways. Aye, I wasn't talking about him. Lukas just isn't really worth his cost and in both cases it's too much points in a unit that will randomly come onto the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244349-what-makes-wolves-cheesy/page/4/#findComment-2956637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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