Erasmus of Baal Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 When a Chapter of Space Marines goes rogue, the first thing that happens is an attempt by other Chapters to purge it. What happens, then, when a Chapter falls to Chaos - without losing a bit of its loyalty to the Imperium and the God-Emperor? When the Crimson Kings, a crusading Sanguinian chapter, accidentally freed an ancient Warp-entity which inadvertently bound itself to them, they were caught in this exact circumstance. This is the most recent event which has happened to the Crimson Kings, however, and their future is still uncertain. Origins The Crimson Kings were founded in M36 as a part of the twenty-first or “Cursed” founding. Their first Chapter Master, Tarrik, was fascinated by the Black Templars’ fame and success; he had been chosen to lead the new Chapter because of his zeal and simple, passionate character. Not aware of the Black Templars’ true numbers, he chose to request that the Chapter be given no vehicles but instead a full ten Strike Cruisers, reasoning and firmly believing that “there is no mightier force than a wave of Space Marines descending from the heavens to crush its enemies under foot and blade.” Thus, the Crimson Kings are, as the Black Templars, demonstrably over strength and outside the bounds of the Codex Astartes, although dramatically less so in both of these respects than the Black Templars are. Later History The “current history” of the Crimson Kings began on 5.305.010.M42, during a fight against an entire Necron Tomb World in the process of awakening; in a rare move, the entire Chapter had been summoned to Doton, a - until recently - dead world in the Ultima Segmentum. Chapter Master Josiah only learned of the event through the Emperor’s Tarot, which spoke of a mighty champion located on a dead world in the Halo Stars; actually sighting the Necron awakening process was a stroke of luck when the First Company noticed an Awakener Cell moving to the plant. The Necrons’ internal communications systems had been sufficiently damaged that a Necron Lord had to physically move around the planet to awaken the sleeping armies, and this is the only reason that the Crimson Kings were able to derive any sort of victory, as they had only to slow the awakening process rather than attempt to combat an entire planet’s worth of mechanical undead. Their victory seemed assured until a second Lord awoke, forcing the Chapter to split its fighting forces further than they could stand. Official records state that the second Lord was destroyed in a massive explosion that also demolished a massive portion of the Necron infantry and an even greater portion of the Necrons’ war machines, most notably a group of a few hundred Doomsday Arks in additional to a sizeable chunk of the planet itself, and this is the only point of the combat that was withheld from official reports. Official reports read that an unknown event likely concerning Necron power sources caused the Chapters’ planned destruction of the Necron war-machines to expand out of control, but the lack of disclosure fits into the rest of the report so seamlessly that more questions have not been asked. The Crimson Kings were then able to redouble their efforts against the first Necron Lord, especially with so many of the Necron sleepers destroyed. Despite the army’s overall success, it still took a positively heroic effort from Chapter Master Josiah to fell the Lord himself, and it is said that while he fought the machine, a golden halo shone around his head. Regardless, the fight was over, and the Necron catacombs could be purged relatively easily. While Josiah was recovering from his wounds, he, along with many members of the Chapter and all of their Librarians, was visited in visions and dreams by a woman with long, dark red hair wearing golden power armor and wielding a large sword. Still, it was a shock to Josiah when Sylvana appeared to him in his private chamber in some form of flesh that looked like the same woman but in a long, flowing, golden dress instead of the battle armor and introduced herself, explaining what had happened. The truth of the massive explosion was that the marines’ explosives had also destroyed a Tesseract labyrinth which held a Warp-entity captive. When this Warp-entity was freed, it reached out to gather all of the strength that it could, just to protect its existence from the horrifying new Warp that it had never seen before. It drew on all of the Warp-power that it could, absorbing what was largely untainted and expelling what it could not keep - this was the cause of the excessive size of the explosion. In its mad grab for simple life, it unknowingly drew Warp-energy through the minds of the Crimson Kings (recall that scions of Sanguinius have a predilection for psychic powers), imprinting them onto her; the expulsion of tainted Warp, then, also touched the Marines present, imprinting her upon them. It was her strength uplifting them that guaranteed the Crimson Kings’ victory in that final battle and that worked in Josiah so strongly that not only did a halo of Warp-energy appear around his head but he was so deeply empowered by Sylvana that he is now a psyker undergoing training to control his powers. Learning all of the details of this, Josiah called up the Chapter’s Chief Librarian and Grand Reclusiarch to discuss with them the possibility of removing Sylvana from the Marines. The Chief Librarian explained that she had wound herself so inextricably around the Marines’ very souls that they were guaranteed to either be damned with her or be saved with her, if such a thing is even possible for a Daemon. “It is, however, likely,” he continued, “that if we protect our future initiates from her, they will be free of her influence and she will be banished from the Chapter without threat to us.” He explained that, yes, she could be pried loose, but the process would likely kill them all. The Grand Reclusiarch concluded the meeting by saying slowly, “The great question falls to us, then. The choice between tainted servants of the Emperor... or the death of an entire Chapter of His finest.” Home World “We defend the worlds of the Imperium by crushing those who would destroy them. Why should we favor one over another aside from holy Terra?” -Lammekh, first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings A Chapter based around being available across the Galaxy cannot afford to be tied down to a planet and defend it. The Crimson Kings, then, are a fleet-based Chapter; the Tenth Company’s ship tests recruits everywhere it goes, and thus the Chapter has no strict pattern of recruitment location. Given the choice, however, the Chapter will select recruits from a world’s criminals; the Crimson Kings realize that the zeal and violence that could be a capital offence on a peaceful world is critical on the front lines of a war. Beliefs “I am aware that my nature appalls every single one of you. To be frank, I think that this is right and just; I know of few other denizens of the Warp who do not wish violence upon this universe. I know that you do not trust me, and I do not want you to trust me. I want you to allow me to prove my passion for your lives and your victories in the service of the God-Emperor!” -Sylvana The Crimson Kings are currently in a rather confused state concerning their beliefs. As a Chapter founded in the line of Sanguinius, they honor him most highly along with the Emperor, with a number of references to Dorn on account of their appreciation of the Black Templars. However, they have recently been forced to deal with their new bond with Sylvana. Thus far, the Chaplains are promoting the belief that, with her tied to them, she is overpowered and inspired by their faith in the Emperor and Sanguinius, and that she will inevitably assist them in protection from Chaos because she fights primarily in and with the Warp. Regardless of this, the idea of a loyal Chapter being tied so completely to a Chaos Daemon is trying for these Marines, and their decisions on this issue will indubitably determine the Chapter’s fate. On one hand, the Marines could eventually swing towards orthodoxy and choose to purge themselves rather than suffer this daemon to live; on the other, they could choose to embrace her and risk damnation and exile for the sake of their continued fight for the Imperium. Only time will tell.... Sylvana It is worth taking time to explain the nature of Sylvana, the Warp-entity that has bound herself to the Crimson Kings. When she was just beginning her existence, she was a formed of emotion in the same way that the major Chaos Gods were, but she was special because she was essentially a Daemon of Love. She is usually referred to, more usefully, as a Daemon of Passion because she doesn’t just represent the famed puppy-love of certain video-captures which will not be named here but also the violence and the suffering that can come from such a deep level of attachment to someone or something. She can draw strength from the Crimson Kings because of their passionate defense of the Imperium, and it is her promotion of this passion that has led to a decrease in the mindless state of the Black Rage in the Chapter. Sylvana was protected from the Chaos Powers’ original conquest of the Warp by her encasement in a Tesseract labyrinth and is now protected from future predations by her unbreakable connection to the Crimson Kings; similarly, her possession-like presence protects the Crimson Kings from any attempts by Chaos to corrupt them through Warp-influence. It is because of this close connection with them that Sylvana seeks to be called the “Crimson Queen,” and because of her passion for them and her sharing in their passions that she wishes to earn this title rather than simply have it bestowed upon her. Gene-seed “Why are you telling me this as though it were something horrific? If our gene-seed is not purely Sanguinian, then it fills me with pride to think that my blood comes also from the sons of mighty and loyal Dorn!” -Chapter Master Josiah, upon hearing tell of a possible genetic connection between the Crimson Kings and the Black Templars The Crimson Kings were founded from the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. There is evidence, however, that their gene-seed was combined with that of the Black Templars, which is of course unproven, especially given the rate at which the Flaw is progressing in the Crimson Kings. The Flaw, however, has become far less noticeable since the Chapter has been under the influence of Sylvana. Combat Doctrine “What do you need these warriors to do from a distance that cannot be done at least as well in the enemy’s face? Why should we bother with simple missiles when we can launch the Emperor’s finest at our foes?” -Lammekh, first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings The Crimson Kings, born of the Blood Angels and inspired by the Black Templars, are an obsessively close-combat oriented Chapter. They field largely unparalleled numbers of Vanguard Veterans in every combat that they participate in, eschewing almost all ranged weaponry in favor of chainswords and bolt pistols. The Ninth Company is the only one to feature ranged weapons en masse, and even then only uses them to hold positions endlessly. Indeed, the Ninth Company is usually the one selected to go when the fight is less of an assault against a marauding enemy than a line-defence against overwhelming odds. The Crimson Kings rarely use what vehicles they do have, with the most common use being the First, Sixth, Seventh, and Ninth Companies preferring drop pod use on occasion (with Sixth and Ninth Companies using this deployment the most often) and the Tenth Company using a considerable number of Land Speeders. This obsessive focus on assaults disturbs other Chapters because the Crimson Kings seem to disregard the holiness of the bolter, but the Crimson Kings are unperturbed and treat their bolters as so vitally important to their identity as Space Marines that they are present during all the major stages of a Marine’s life: all during training as a Scout, during all promotions, often in battle, and always used by the Death Company. Also, the Crimson Kings are one of the few non-Dornian Chapters to practice use of the Emperor’s Champion; the Chapter always has one chosen to be the Emperor’s Champion for life, chosen by the Emperor’s Tarot, and one chosen prior to each battle. Although this is a great honor for the chosen Marine, is has occasionally led to the problematic - although oddly rare - situation of the Emperor’s Champion falling to the Black Rage and joining the Death Company. Such cases are inevitable, but are believed to be times of great portent for the Company and sometimes for the Chapter as a whole. For example, it was in the First Company’s last battle before the events called the “Darkest Hour” that the Emperor’s Champion fell to the Black Rage and began screaming of needing to go and defend Sanguinius from dying at the Infinity Gate. While other Chapters disregarded it, the Crimson Kings believed that this was a prophecy of the Blood Angels’ desperation in 999.M41. Organization “I can see the strength and reassurance of unity, but I believe that that strength is lost when the union must splinter in order to answer threats. I believe that we are stronger when we are separated and brought into union by the enemies we crush in the Emperor’s name.” -Josiah, Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings The first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings was a great admirer of the Black Templars, especially their mobility and zeal. As such, he decided to effectively split the Chapter into its Companies; a slight snub towards the Codex Astartes, yes, but he was chosen to lead the new Chapter on account of his zeal rather than any kind of knowledge or appreciation of tradition. As such, the Crimson Kings have been involved in almost every major conflict since their founding at least in some small measure. Each Company has its own ship; because of the odd dichotomy of separated and united as a Codex Chapter, some interesting circumstances arise, mostly around veterans and Scouts. It remains the Tenth Company’s duty to recruit and to train Scouts, but roughly the last year of a Scout’s training is with whichever Company he will be assigned to. No Scouts are directly promoted to the First Company; even though it operates as independently as any of the others, it draws its membership from the best of the other Companies. Each Company does have its own contingent of Veterans, but the First Company has the largest such group and has all the Chapter’s relics and Terminator Armor and Dreadnoughts. Battle-cry Before battle, the force chants the following in unison: “Kill by any means necessary! Win by any means necessary! Live by any means necessary! Die by any means necessary!” As they charge into the fray, the entire force echoes this in unison by screaming “Kill, win, live, die!” Personal notes (you are all welcome to comment on these): I plan to use the Blood Angels Codex to represent the Crimson Kings. I have yet to decide whether Sylvana would be better represented as Mephiston or the Sanguinor, but I am most strongly considering a Dark Eldar Scourge or Lhamaean model (modified, especially in terms of the head) to represent her on the battlefield. Similarly, I am not yet sure about the best way to represent the Emperor’s Champion with this Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Surely a Daemon of Passion would fall under the aegis of Slaanesh once the Tesseract Labyrinth was gone? The whole concept seems... a little off somehow. Wait... wait... new idea... perhaps make her an avatar of Isha (the Eldar God held captive by Nurgle)? That'd handily avoid the whole passion/Slaanesh thing but then that'd raise a new issue - why appear to humans and not eldar? Bother. Hmm. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2959998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 To humans and not to Eldar, perhaps, because of her desperation at the time? I did consider making her an Eldar god, a child of Isha and someone, but they were unequivocally destroyed, with the only survivors being Isha (in an imprisoned state) and Cergorach the Laughing God. I would argue, though, that Sylvana would not be immediately subsumed by Slaanesh because she is as undivded as you can get. Her primary theme is one of caring - something that could fall under Nurgle, judging from his behavior - but she also includes protective violence (Khornate in terms of kill-everyone-else), the changes that caring for someone can bring (Tzeentchian, and it stems from the fact that love can bring about all possible emotional states), and, well, Slaanesh is usually associated with love, but that's only because of sex, which is not something that Sylvana is concerned with (though I do understand your association with her as an Eldar goddess and Slaanesh's consumption). Besides that, why would such consumption be so immediate? Her "grand entrance" is, in terms of the scale of the Four Dark Powers, rather small, especially since she only killed a handful of ensouled beings. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2960006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 To humans and not to Eldar, perhaps, because of her desperation at the time? I honestly find this much more intriguing than a deamon of passion - it also is much more unique and gives a scope for the Crimson Kings to have an overarching "mission" concerning their near fall. But... maybe I'm being biased. :rolleyes: I did consider making her an Eldar god, a child of Isha and someone, but they were unequivocally destroyed, with the only survivors being Isha (in an imprisoned state) and Cergorach the Laughing God. As mentioned in my previous post, she could be an avatar (a shard) of the Goddess. It would raise the question of how a shard of Isha escaped Nurgle, but that's not really something I think should be expanded on. A little bit of mystery is good, I say. ;) I would argue, though, that Sylvana would not be immediately subsumed by Slaanesh because she is as undivded as you can get. Her primary theme is one of caring - something that could fall under Nurgle, judging from his behavior - but she also includes protective violence (Khornate in terms of kill-everyone-else), the changes that caring for someone can bring (Tzeentchian, and it stems from the fact that love can bring about all possible emotional states), and, well, Slaanesh is usually associated with love, but that's only because of sex, which is not something that Sylvana is concerned with (though I do understand your association with her as an Eldar goddess and Slaanesh's consumption). Besides that, why would such consumption be so immediate? Her "grand entrance" is, in terms of the scale of the Four Dark Powers, rather small, especially since she only killed a handful of ensouled beings. Fair enough - an undivided daemon then. And the whole consumption thing really only applies to Gods, I think - so I'll stand corrected on that. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2960009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skoll Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 sounds fun Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2960757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 As promised, I'm going to go over this properly, brother. It's taken me a few hours to go through this so some of it will sound less forgiving than other parts. Also - this'll be over more than one post (too many quote tags, apparently). When a Chapter of Space Marines goes rogue, the first thing that happens is an attempt by other Chapters to purge it. What happens, then, when a Chapter falls to Chaos - without losing a bit of its loyalty to the Imperium and the God-Emperor? When the Crimson Kings, a crusading Sanguinian chapter, accidentally freed an ancient Warp-entity which inadvertently bound itself to them, they were caught in this exact circumstance. This is the most recent event which has happened to the Crimson Kings, however, and their future is still uncertain. As much as a preamble explains things, one in a Liber Chapter thread seems a bit out of place. Really the body of text in the article should explain things adequately enough not to need a preamble, I think. If the article has the events detailed within mentioned here, this first paragraph isn't needed - it'd be better to prune it to streamline the article. The Crimson Kings were founded in M36 as a part of the twenty-first or “Cursed” founding. Their first Chapter Master, Tarrik, was fascinated by the Black Templars’ fame and success; Why? Has he fought alongside them? If so, when and where? What happened to cement them so firmly in his mind? If not, is his fascination a character flaw? Was he obsessive? he had been chosen to lead the new Chapter because of his zeal and simple, passionate character. Was he a captain from another chapter? Why was he chosen over other potential leaders? He needs more depth than zeal and passion. Was the zeal borne of hatred? Of doctrine? Was he mentored to be this way? Not aware of the Black Templars’ true numbers, Redundant sentence. Nobody is aware besides a very select few, if that. Some well informed individuals could guess, I suppose, but that'd be conjecture. he chose to request that the Chapter be given no vehicles Sorry brother, but this makes not one iota of sense. Why refuse vehicles? They are essential battlefield accessories and no soldier, elite or not, would take footslogging every time over a ride, regardless of how they originally arrived on the field of battle. In select circumstances, yes, but vehicles have uses and advantages that other accessories will simply not cover. but instead a full ten Strike Cruisers, Ten sounds alot, brother, for a brand new chapter. Five is more believable, imho, seeing as you need to take into consideration the much bigger Battle Barges and the escort ships. It's better to underplay fleet elements for a DIY chapter than go the full stretch that the fluff allows. 40k isn't an ideal universe - a ship for each company sounds, well, ideal. reasoning and firmly believing that “there is no mightier force than a wave of Space Marines descending from the heavens to crush its enemies under foot and blade.” I'm seeing the believing part but not the reasoning. There are plenty of mightier forces, even in the Imperium (Titans, the Imperial Navy, Ordinatus platforms). I think this can be remedied by adding a qualifier, something that the astartes are good at that the other 'mighty forces' are not. Perhaps cutting the heart out of the enemy like a scalpel. Or, considering the aforementioned zeal and passion, that they are the emperors finest, the chosen elite of the empire of mankind. Thus, the Crimson Kings are, as the Black Templars, demonstrably over strength and outside the bounds of the Codex Astartes, although dramatically less so in both of these respects than the Black Templars are. Why would they be over-strength, even if they knew the Black Templars were (which, as you said earlier, they didn't)? If you wish to stick to the over-strength part you could go the route of the Marines Errant - parts of the chapter have been away from the others for very extended periods of time and had to look after themselves, be self contained and self sustaining. I don't recommend being non-codex adherent unless you have a good reason. Copying the Black Templars is not one of them. The “current history” of the Crimson Kings began on 5.305.010.M42, during a fight against an entire Necron Tomb World in the process of awakening; Iirc, the current timeline stops in the year 999.M41 with very few exceptions, most notably the Medusa V campaign. I recommend winding the clock back a few decades. in a rare move, the entire Chapter had been summoned to Doton, a - until recently - dead world in the Ultima Segmentum. Chapter Master Josiah only learned of the event through the Emperor’s Tarot, which spoke of a mighty champion located on a dead world in the Halo Stars; Which is it, were they summoned (and by who) or was the consultation of the Tarot the trigger? actually sighting the Necron awakening process was a stroke of luck when the First Company noticed an Awakener Cell moving to the plant. The Necrons’ internal communications systems had been sufficiently damaged that a Necron Lord had to physically move around the planet to awaken the sleeping armies, and this is the only reason that the Crimson Kings were able to derive any sort of victory, as they had only to slow the awakening process rather than attempt to combat an entire planet’s worth of mechanical undead. Their victory seemed assured until a second Lord awoke, forcing the Chapter to split its fighting forces further than they could stand. Official records state that the second Lord was destroyed in a massive explosion that also demolished a massive portion of the Necron infantry and an even greater portion of the Necrons’ war machines, most notably a group of a few hundred Doomsday Arks in additional to a sizeable chunk of the planet itself, and this is the only point of the combat that was withheld from official reports. Official reports read that an unknown event likely concerning Necron power sources caused the Chapters’ planned destruction of the Necron war-machines to expand out of control, but the lack of disclosure fits into the rest of the report so seamlessly that more questions have not been asked. The Crimson Kings were then able to redouble their efforts against the first Necron Lord, especially with so many of the Necron sleepers destroyed. Despite the army’s overall success, it still took a positively heroic effort from Chapter Master Josiah to fell the Lord himself, and it is said that while he fought the machine, a golden halo shone around his head. Regardless, the fight was over, and the Necron catacombs could be purged relatively easily. Erm, this is a dead world, right? Why did they not bombard the bejesus out of it from orbit? While Josiah was recovering from his wounds, he, along with many members of the Chapter and all of their Librarians, was visited in visions and dreams by a woman with long, dark red hair wearing golden power armor and wielding a large sword. I think, if the fight was so epic (in the previous paragraph), you'll need to mention how battered the chapter was. After all that I'd expect heavy casualties, really. Also - Sylvana sounds curiously like a living saint... Still, it was a shock to Josiah when Sylvana appeared to him in his private chamber in some form of flesh Some form of flesh? That's bizarrely vague. Saying she 'manifested' to him personally would probably sound less... weird. that looked like the same woman but in a long, flowing, golden dress instead of the battle armor and introduced herself, explaining what had happened. Now then, the last bit there says she explains what happened. What were the visions for then? Surely she'd use those to explain the situation before manifesting? The truth of the massive explosion was that the marines’ explosives had also destroyed a Tesseract labyrinth which held a Warp-entity captive. When this Warp-entity was freed, it reached out to gather all of the strength that it could, just to protect its existence from the horrifying new Warp that it had never seen before. It drew on all of the Warp-power that it could, absorbing what was largely untainted and expelling what it could not keep - this was the cause of the excessive size of the explosion. In its mad grab for simple life, it unknowingly drew Warp-energy through the minds of the Crimson Kings (recall that scions of Sanguinius have a predilection for psychic powers), imprinting them onto her; the expulsion of tainted Warp, then, also touched the Marines present, imprinting her upon them. It was her strength uplifting them that guaranteed the Crimson Kings’ victory in that final battle and that worked in Josiah so strongly that not only did a halo of Warp-energy appear around his head but he was so deeply empowered by Sylvana that he is now a psyker undergoing training to control his powers. As stated before, in my previous posts, I think a shard of Isha makes more sense. Learning all of the details of this, Josiah called up the Chapter’s Chief Librarian and Grand Reclusiarch to discuss with them the possibility of removing Sylvana from the Marines. The Chief Librarian explained that she had wound herself so inextricably around the Marines’ very souls that they were guaranteed to either be damned with her or be saved with her, if such a thing is even possible for a Daemon. “It is, however, likely,” he continued, “that if we protect our future initiates from her, they will be free of her influence and she will be banished from the Chapter without threat to us.” He explained that, yes, she could be pried loose, but the process would likely kill them all. The Grand Reclusiarch concluded the meeting by saying slowly, “The great question falls to us, then. The choice between tainted servants of the Emperor... or the death of an entire Chapter of His finest.” This section is pretty good, admittedly. Not much to say here except well done. “We defend the worlds of the Imperium by crushing those who would destroy them. Why should we favor one over another aside from holy Terra?” -Lammekh, first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings I thought the first chapter master was called Tarrik? If these two are the same guy I think you need to give his full name here and at the top (where Tarrik is mentioned). A Chapter based around being available across the Galaxy cannot afford to be tied down to a planet and defend it. The Crimson Kings, then, are a fleet-based Chapter; the Tenth Company’s ship tests recruits everywhere it goes, and thus the Chapter has no strict pattern of recruitment location. Given the choice, however, the Chapter will select recruits from a world’s criminals; the Crimson Kings realize that the zeal and violence that could be a capital offence on a peaceful world is critical on the front lines of a war. I think slipping in the word 'juvenile' before 'criminals' would help. It's not essential, but it helps to clarify the issue. “I am aware that my nature appalls every single one of you. To be frank, I think that this is right and just; I know of few other denizens of the Warp who do not wish violence upon this universe. I know that you do not trust me, and I do not want you to trust me. I want you to allow me to prove my passion for your lives and your victories in the service of the God-Emperor!” -Sylvana This quote is all kinds of odd, to me. It'd make more sense to have a quote from the High Reclusiarch concerning Sylvana rather than a short speech from her. The Crimson Kings are currently in a rather confused state concerning their beliefs. As a Chapter founded in the line of Sanguinius, they honor him most highly along with the Emperor, with a number of references to Dorn on account of their appreciation of the Black Templars. However, they have recently been forced to deal with their new bond with Sylvana. Thus far, the Chaplains are promoting the belief that, with her tied to them, she is overpowered and inspired by their faith in the Emperor and Sanguinius, Inspired? Why would a chaplain tell a confused battle brother that he's inspiring a daemon? I'll grant you it sounded fairly decent up to that point, but saying inspired throws it completely. and that she will inevitably assist them in protection from Chaos because she fights primarily in and with the Warp. Imho this bit should be deleted (especially if you alter the previous bit). Regardless of this, the idea of a loyal Chapter being tied so completely to a Chaos Daemon is trying for these Marines, and their decisions on this issue will indubitably determine the Chapter’s fate. On one hand, the Marines could eventually swing towards orthodoxy and choose to purge themselves rather than suffer this daemon to live; on the other, they could choose to embrace her and risk damnation and exile for the sake of their continued fight for the Imperium. Only time will tell.... The rest of it is fine, I reckon. Sounds good. It is worth taking time to explain the nature of Sylvana, the Warp-entity that has bound herself to the Crimson Kings. When she was just beginning her existence, she was a formed of emotion in the same way that the major Chaos Gods were, but she was special because she was essentially a Daemon of Love. She is usually referred to, more usefully, as a Daemon of Passion because she doesn’t just represent the famed puppy-love of certain video-captures which will not be named here but also the violence and the suffering that can come from such a deep level of attachment to someone or something. She can draw strength from the Crimson Kings because of their passionate defense of the Imperium, and it is her promotion of this passion that has led to a decrease in the mindless state of the Black Rage in the Chapter. Sylvana was protected from the Chaos Powers’ original conquest of the Warp by her encasement in a Tesseract labyrinth and is now protected from future predations by her unbreakable connection to the Crimson Kings; similarly, her possession-like presence protects the Crimson Kings from any attempts by Chaos to corrupt them through Warp-influence. It is because of this close connection with them that Sylvana seeks to be called the “Crimson Queen,” and because of her passion for them and her sharing in their passions that she wishes to earn this title rather than simply have it bestowed upon her. See my previous post on the Isha thing. 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Olis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 “Why are you telling me this as though it were something horrific? If our gene-seed is not purely Sanguinian, then it fills me with pride to think that my blood comes also from the sons of mighty and loyal Dorn!” -Chapter Master Josiah, upon hearing tell of a possible genetic connection between the Crimson Kings and the Black Templars If you ask me, Josiah is sounding a little nuts. If the issue is still undecided when this quote occurs, Josiah sounds very head-strong and cares little for the history of his chapter's gene-seed. This is obviously not a good thing. The Crimson Kings were founded from the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. There is evidence, however, that their gene-seed was combined with that of the Black Templars, which is of course unproven, especially given the rate at which the Flaw is progressing in the Crimson Kings. The Flaw, however, has become far less noticeable since the Chapter has been under the influence of Sylvana. I'm afraid you're going to have to pick one or the other, brother. Is there evidence or not? If not, then it's unproven. “What do you need these warriors to do from a distance that cannot be done at least as well in the enemy’s face? Why should we bother with simple missiles when we can launch the Emperor’s finest at our foes?” -Lammekh, first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings I'd drop the word 'simple'. It's makes Lammekh look like he's making life harder for his brothers deliberately, rather than show an eagerness for melee. The Crimson Kings, born of the Blood Angels and inspired by the Black Templars, are an obsessively close-combat oriented Chapter. They field largely unparalleled numbers of Vanguard Veterans in every combat that they participate in, eschewing almost all ranged weaponry in favor of chainswords and bolt pistols. Unparalleled numbers? Veterans aren't exactly easy to come by, brother. The Ninth Company is the only one to feature ranged weapons en masse, and even then only uses them to hold positions endlessly. Indeed, the Ninth Company is usually the one selected to go when the fight is less of an assault against a marauding enemy than a line-defence against overwhelming odds. I think you need to broaden the scope of the ninth company's mandate. What about suppressive fire? What about hardened targets? Ground to air capabilities? It sounds like you've made the ninth an unnecessary one-trick pony when they don't need to be. The Crimson Kings rarely use what vehicles they do have, Why? I'd use 'em all the time - leaving your vehicles at home is not a smart thing to do when you want to win your wars. with the most common use being the First, Sixth, Seventh, and Ninth Companies preferring drop pod use on occasion (with Sixth and Ninth Companies using this deployment the most often) and the Tenth Company using a considerable number of Land Speeders. Again, why? I think this bit should be pruned - it's unecessarily specific and restrictive. This obsessive focus on assaults disturbs other Chapters because the Crimson Kings seem to disregard the holiness of the bolter, but the Crimson Kings are unperturbed and treat their bolters as so vitally important to their identity as Space Marines that they are present during all the major stages of a Marine’s life: all during training as a Scout, during all promotions, often in battle, and always used by the Death Company. If the Bolter is so important to them, why doesn't the Crimson Kings use them more often? Also being assault oriented is not really disturbing for a space marine - wanton destruction and killing allies are grounds for concern, though. Also, the Crimson Kings are one of the few non-Dornian Chapters to practice use of the Emperor’s Champion; the Chapter always has one chosen to be the Emperor’s Champion for life, chosen by the Emperor’s Tarot, and one chosen prior to each battle. Although this is a great honor for the chosen Marine, is has occasionally led to the problematic - although oddly rare - situation of the Emperor’s Champion falling to the Black Rage and joining the Death Company. Such cases are inevitable, but are believed to be times of great portent for the Company and sometimes for the Chapter as a whole. For example, it was in the First Company’s last battle before the events called the “Darkest Hour” that the Emperor’s Champion fell to the Black Rage and began screaming of needing to go and defend Sanguinius from dying at the Infinity Gate. While other Chapters disregarded it, the Crimson Kings believed that this was a prophecy of the Blood Angels’ desperation in 999.M41. Not comfortable about this paragraph at all. Currently the only chapter I know that has an Emperor's Champion is the Black Templars. That's it. Claiming one for your BA descended diy chapter smacks of schizophrenia. You can't have your cake and eat it, if they're a Blood Angels Successor there won't be an Emperor's Champion. If they aren't then you're going to have to dump the Blood Angel-y stuff. “I can see the strength and reassurance of unity, but I believe that that strength is lost when the union must splinter in order to answer threats. I believe that we are stronger when we are separated and brought into union by the enemies we crush in the Emperor’s name.” -Josiah, Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings I'm sorry, this is an awful quote. It's a mess, frankly, and I'd suggest doing something a little more succinct, like Huron's "The strong are strongest alone" quip. The first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings was a great admirer of the Black Templars, especially their mobility and zeal. Which is fair enough. As such, he decided to effectively split the Chapter into its Companies; a slight snub towards the Codex Astartes, yes, How so? Companies operate independantly all the time. but he was chosen to lead the new Chapter on account of his zeal rather than any kind of knowledge or appreciation of tradition. Really? He doesn't really have many good qualities mentioned about him - all I've read is zeal and passion. If his knowledge of tradition or appreciation of tradition is lacking, it's almost certain there was better candidates for his position. Essentially, for space marines of a new chapter the word 'tradition' would seem to me to be pretty synonymous with 'Codex'. Which would allude to him being an impetuous commander with little time for the codex. Not really a basis for a new Master of a Chapter. While we're here: How is he on strategy? Or tactics? Was he planner, a chess player? Or was he used to making up strategies on the fly? As such, the Crimson Kings have been involved in almost every major conflict since their founding at least in some small measure. This is very much a throw away line. Throw it away. Not everyone was at Armageddon or Cadia. The galaxy is mind bogglingly vast. There's plenty of wars to go around. Each Company has its own ship; because of the odd dichotomy of separated and united as a Codex Chapter, Although I've been urging you to edge back toward being more of a Codex Chapter, I find this inclusion very odd, considering the effort put in prior to this to establish the non-codexness of the chapter. some interesting circumstances arise, mostly around veterans and Scouts. It remains the Tenth Company’s duty to recruit and to train Scouts, but roughly the last year of a Scout’s training is with whichever Company he will be assigned to. No Scouts are directly promoted to the First Company; even though it operates as independently as any of the others, it draws its membership from the best of the other Companies. Each Company does have its own contingent of Veterans, but the First Company has the largest such group and has all the Chapter’s relics and Terminator Armor and Dreadnoughts. Again, this sounds like having your cake and eating it. This chapter needs to sound less like an amalgamation of the best parts of the Blood Angels and the Black Templars and more like one or the other. I humbly suggest, given my prior urgings, to jettison much of the Black Templar influences as it simply doesn't fit. Before battle, the force chants the following in unison: “Kill by any means necessary! Win by any means necessary! Live by any means necessary! Die by any means necessary!” Too repetitive if you ask me. Might be better if you lose a line of it (perhaps the first line). As they charge into the fray, the entire force echoes this in unison by screaming “Kill, win, live, die!” This is better, if a little shorn of context. Right then, let's hope this helps. Like I said, if I sound brunt at times it's tiredness and impatience leaking though, brother. Don't take it personally. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2960879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Their first Chapter Master, Tarrik, was fascinated by the Black Templars’ fame and success; Why? Has he fought alongside them? If so, when and where? What happened to cement them so firmly in his mind? If not, is his fascination a character flaw? Was he obsessive? Honestly, I was trying to avoid this guy being The Big Character, so I didn't want to explore him very much. The stuff about the Black Templar relations was grafted on later than pretty much any of the rest so that the Chapter would actually have some character aside from the events on Doton since that happened so recently. I was trying to suggest the whole way through that the Chapter had been an AdMech experiment in splicing Sanguinian and Dornian gene-seed. I just like the Black Templars better than the Iron Fists, so I keep talking about them. I'm used to it being assumed that a Captain from the parent Chapter (the only official parent Chapter here being the Blood Angels) leads the new Chapter at first, and Tarrik was chosen because his character matches them so well. Again, I didn't really want to explore him too deeply. Redundant sentence. Nobody is aware besides a very select few, if that. Some well informed individuals could guess, I suppose, but that'd be conjecture. I chose to point this out to show one of his failings: he assumes that he knows what's going on with the Black Templars and that he can emulate them with a single Codex Chapter's size. Sorry brother, but this makes not one iota of sense. Why refuse vehicles? They are essential battlefield accessories and no soldier, elite or not, would take footslogging every time over a ride, regardless of how they originally arrived on the field of battle. In select circumstances, yes, but vehicles have uses and advantages that other accessories will simply not cover. Once again, it's because he's headstrong and shortsighted. I get your point, but his argument would be that his veterans and devastator squads can do anything that a tank can do better than the tank can! Whether that's actually correct or not, I'll add more of a "cooler heads prevailed" item and give them more vehicles. Ten [strike Cruisers]sounds alot, brother, for a brand new chapter. Five is more believable, imho, seeing as you need to take into consideration the much bigger Battle Barges and the escort ships. It's better to underplay fleet elements for a DIY chapter than go the full stretch that the fluff allows. 40k isn't an ideal universe - a ship for each company sounds, well, ideal. Fair enough. I don't want to tone it all the way down to five - I'm making a point of this fleet not having a Battle Barge - but something like six or seven probably would be more ideal (in terms of a DIY Chapter). reasoning and firmly believing that “there is no mightier force than a wave of Space Marines descending from the heavens to crush its enemies under foot and blade.” I'm seeing the believing part but not the reasoning. There are plenty of mightier forces, even in the Imperium (Titans, the Imperial Navy, Ordinatus platforms). I think this can be remedied by adding a qualifier, something that the astartes are good at that the other 'mighty forces' are not. Perhaps cutting the heart out of the enemy like a scalpel. Or, considering the aforementioned zeal and passion, that they are the emperors finest, the chosen elite of the empire of mankind. The whole "that they are the Emperor's finest" is his reasoning. Again, I'm making him intentionally shortsighted, perfect to lead a Chapter bred for close-combat without asking too many question. Thus, the Crimson Kings are, as the Black Templars, demonstrably over strength and outside the bounds of the Codex Astartes, although dramatically less so in both of these respects than the Black Templars are. Why would they be over-strength, even if they knew the Black Templars were (which, as you said earlier, they didn't)? If you wish to stick to the over-strength part you could go the route of the Marines Errant - parts of the chapter have been away from the others for very extended periods of time and had to look after themselves, be self contained and self sustaining. I don't recommend being non-codex adherent unless you have a good reason. Copying the Black Templars is not one of them. I added this because it seems logical to me in light of the Chapter's nature. They're close-combat obsessors; they aren't sure that they want any Tactical Squads at all, and are sure that they don't need very many Devastator Squads. Thus, they're going to drift further away from the Codex Astartes than such Chapters as the Blood Angels would, although they have no idea of forsaking it entirely. As far as being over strength, well, I figured that that would inevitably happen as well. I suppose it probably wouldn't, or at least doesn't bear mentioning, in light of the Flaw. IIRC, the current timeline stops in the year 999.M41 with very few exceptions, most notably the Medusa V campaign. I recommend winding the clock back a few decades. I heard tell of an older system by which the current time in 40K is today's date plus 39,000 years (or something very close to that). I prefer that system to the "ZOMG MILLENIUM IS COMING" obsession that GW now has. in a rare move, the entire Chapter had been summoned to Doton, a - until recently - dead world in the Ultima Segmentum. Chapter Master Josiah only learned of the event through the Emperor’s Tarot, which spoke of a mighty champion located on a dead world in the Halo Stars; Which is it, were they summoned (and by who) or was the consultation of the Tarot the trigger? I'm not sure what you're asking about here. The "rare event" (I really did phrase that horribly) is the fact that the entirety of the Chapter was there. They consult the Tarot regularly to find their battlefields when no unanswered astropathic calls for help are being noticed. Erm, this is a dead world, right? Why did they not bombard the bejesus out of it from orbit? IIRC, Space Marines aren't supposed to have that kind of firepower on their spaceships - that belongs to the Imperial Navy. Solution? Stop the Awakener Cell. When that doesn't work as well as we'd like, summon more Marines. Rinse and repeat. I think, if the fight was so epic (in the previous paragraph), you'll need to mention how battered the chapter was. After all that I'd expect heavy casualties, really. Also - Sylvana sounds curiously like a living saint... Again, I recall hearing that one of the things that makes Space Marines so special in comparison to normal human troops is their ability to "die" and later get up and walk back to base, just because the augmented body can take that much punishment and still survive, so while there were unusually heavy casualties, it's not like they lost half the Chapter. And I don't know where you're getting the 'Living Saint' business from; I don't understand how Sylvana fits that. Some form of flesh? That's bizarrely vague. Saying she 'manifested' to him personally would probably sound less... weird. Well, what else do you call it when it looks like human flesh, feels like human flesh, and yet was just summoned out of Warp-energy? I guess I'll use the "manifested" terminology since I don't have anything better. Now then, the last bit there says she explains what happened. What were the visions for then? Surely she'd use those to explain the situation before manifesting? The visions were more a side effect of her unintentionally bonding with them while she was trying to solidify her own presence after being released. Her "explaining what happened" was supposed to be that she was explaining her view of events to the Chapter Master. As stated before, in my previous posts, I think a shard of Isha makes more sense. And as soon as you find a way to make that work, let me know. The Grand Reclusiarch concluded the meeting by saying slowly, “The great question falls to us, then. The choice between tainted servants of the Emperor... or the death of an entire Chapter of His finest.” This section is pretty good, admittedly. Not much to say here except well done. :D Thanks. I do love the line by the Grand Reclusiarch. I thought the first chapter master was called Tarrik? If these two are the same guy I think you need to give his full name here and at the top (where Tarrik is mentioned). Sorry, my mistake. I changed the name a few times; I must have missed one or two. I think slipping in the word 'juvenile' before 'criminals' would help. It's not essential, but it helps to clarify the issue. Fair enough. Done. This quote is all kinds of odd, to me. It'd make more sense to have a quote from the High Reclusiarch concerning Sylvana rather than a short speech from her. Care to go into more detail about what you'd like to hear? It's intended to be her introducing herself to the Marines in a large group, similarly to how she introduced herself to the Chapter Master. Inspired? Why would a chaplain tell a confused battle brother that he's inspiring a daemon? I'll grant you it sounded fairly decent up to that point, but saying inspired throws it completely. I was thinking along the lines of inspiration as a guiding force, which makes more sense from a more artistic perspective. I'll see if I can word that better. and that she will inevitably assist them in protection from Chaos because she fights primarily in and with the Warp. IMO this bit should be deleted (especially if you alter the previous bit). Why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2961086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 If you ask me, Josiah is sounding a little nuts. If the issue is still undecided when this quote occurs, Josiah sounds very head-strong and cares little for the history of his chapter's gene-seed. This is obviously not a good thing. Fair enough. I'll probably just cut it completely. The Crimson Kings were founded from the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. There is evidence, however, that their gene-seed was combined with that of the Black Templars, which is of course unproven, especially given the rate at which the Flaw is progressing in the Crimson Kings. The Flaw, however, has become far less noticeable since the Chapter has been under the influence of Sylvana. I'm afraid you're going to have to pick one or the other, brother. Is there evidence or not? If not, then it's unproven. Again with the unknowns from the Cursed Founding. AdMech experiment between Sanguinian and Dornian gene-seed. Etc. “What do you need these warriors to do from a distance that cannot be done at least as well in the enemy’s face? Why should we bother with simple missiles when we can launch the Emperor’s finest at our foes?” -Lammekh, first Chapter Master of the Crimson Kings I'd drop the word 'simple'. It's makes Lammekh look like he's making life harder for his brothers deliberately, rather than show an eagerness for melee. Well, what other word ought I use to give the impression that sending a missile instead of a marine is like shooting ping-pong balls instead of jet fighters? Unparalleled numbers? Veterans aren't exactly easy to come by, brother. This is where the "not exactly in-line with the Codex" part comes into play. They don't have many Sternguard or Terminators and I'm debating how many Sanguinary Guard they have. Almost all of their Veterans are Vanguard Veterans. That's where the Chapter gets so many of them from. I think you need to broaden the scope of the ninth company's mandate. What about suppressive fire? What about hardened targets? Ground to air capabilities? It sounds like you've made the ninth an unnecessary one-trick pony when they don't need to be. You're right that it doesn't work well with some other things that I've done with this Chapter, but I did base this on my understanding of Codex organization, where (from what I can tell) companies after the fifth or so are one-trick ponies that send their trick to help out in strike forces. Why[not use vehicles]? I'd use 'em all the time - leaving your vehicles at home is not a smart thing to do when you want to win your wars. BA jump pack love + BT single-mindedness = why do we have vehicles? with the most common use being the First, Sixth, Seventh, and Ninth Companies preferring drop pod use on occasion (with Sixth and Ninth Companies using this deployment the most often) and the Tenth Company using a considerable number of Land Speeders. Again, why? I think this bit should be pruned - it's unecessarily specific and restrictive. When I was writing this, I felt like it was being too inclusive - these guys don't like to use vehicles and don't want to. They do, sometimes, but only when it really is the only way to get a job done. If the Bolter is so important to them, why doesn't the Crimson Kings use them more often? Also being assault oriented is not really disturbing for a space marine - wanton destruction and killing allies are grounds for concern, though. The Bolter, to me, is the central point of being one of the Adeptus Astartes (Yes, SoB have them, but they have Space Marine envy). I had to make some kind of provision about the bolter for me to be comfortable with them. It doesn't really fit, so I should probably cut it completely, but I felt a need to at least include it in a draft version. Not comfortable about this paragraph at all. Currently the only chapter I know that has an Emperor's Champion is the Black Templars. That's it. Claiming one for your BA descended diy chapter smacks of schizophrenia. You can't have your cake and eat it, if they're a Blood Angels Successor there won't be an Emperor's Champion. If they aren't then you're going to have to dump the Blood Angel-y stuff. From the Black Templars Codex: "The practice of having an Emperor's Champion has spread to other Chapters, but it is enshrined most strongly within the dogma of the Black Templars." After rereading the Emperor's Champion's fluff (to find that quote), I realize that I shouldn't have one for each strike force that the Chapter has. I'll cut that out. I'm sorry, this is an awful quote. It's a mess, frankly, and I'd suggest doing something a little more succinct, like Huron's "The strong are strongest alone" quip. Agreed. I'll probably cut it. As such, he decided to effectively split the Chapter into its Companies; a slight snub towards the Codex Astartes, yes, How so? Companies operate independantly all the time. So, we apparently have different ideas of what the Codex Astartes says on this point. I'm less accustomed to the idea of each Company being its own viable attack force under any circumstances than I am used to the idea that each Company has its own specialty and strike forces are formed based on which specialties will be needed for the mission. That's the mind-set I was in when crafting this whole IA and is where I got the idea that they aren't being completely Codex-compliant. but he was chosen to lead the new Chapter on account of his zeal rather than any kind of knowledge or appreciation of tradition. Really? He doesn't really have many good qualities mentioned about him - all I've read is zeal and passion. If his knowledge of tradition or appreciation of tradition is lacking, it's almost certain there was better candidates for his position. Essentially, for space marines of a new chapter the word 'tradition' would seem to me to be pretty synonymous with 'Codex'. Which would allude to him being an impetuous commander with little time for the codex. Not really a basis for a new Master of a Chapter. While we're here: How is he on strategy? Or tactics? Was he planner, a chess player? Or was he used to making up strategies on the fly? Again, this Chapter was bred to be single-minded in its purpose. I wanted him to exemplify that, but I now realize that I need to talk about the next few Chapter Masters being all, "Whoa, bro, calm down. There are other ways we can do this that are just as good." He's the kind of guy who believes that there is only one strategy needed: ATTACK. Granted, he'd take a look at the enemy's defenses and figure out where best to do the attacking and how many anti-vehicle weapons &c. he would need, but it still boils down to attacking with a melee-oriented force. Each Company has its own ship; because of the odd dichotomy of separated and united as a Codex Chapter, Although I've been urging you to edge back toward being more of a Codex Chapter, I find this inclusion very odd, considering the effort put in prior to this to establish the non-codexness of the chapter. This comes about because the Chapter realizes the value of the Codex and tries to stick to it even if much of what they want to do and are good at is at direct odds with what the Codex says. Again, this sounds like having your cake and eating it. This chapter needs to sound less like an amalgamation of the best parts of the Blood Angels and the Black Templars and more like one or the other. I humbly suggest, given my prior urgings, to jettison much of the Black Templar influences as it simply doesn't fit. I don't see how the BT stuff is coming up in this section, but I get it. As far as this actual section goes, it really was me working out in my head how a more typical Chapter would work with this method of divided action. Too repetitive if you ask me. Might be better if you lose a line of it (perhaps the first line). I heard this in a song and thought that it was too perfect to not use as a war-chant for Space Marines. I just happened to be working on this particular Chapter at the time. Right then, let's hope this helps. Like I said, if I sound brunt at times it's tiredness and impatience leaking though, brother. Don't take it personally. :D Hey, it'll definitely help. Honestly, I think of critiquing in an even more brutal sense than most people do, so if anything you weren't as brunt as I was ready for. ;) Thanks for reading, and bearing with me despite its issues. 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Allfather1 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Origins The Crimson Kings were founded in M36 as a part of the twenty-first or “Cursed” founding. Their first Chapter Master, Tarrik, was fascinated by the Black Templars’ fame and success; he had been chosen to lead the new Chapter because of his zeal and simple, passionate character. Not aware of the Black Templars’ true numbers, he chose to request that the Chapter be given no vehicles but instead a full ten Strike Cruisers, reasoning and firmly believing that “there is no mightier force than a wave of Space Marines descending from the heavens to crush its enemies under foot and blade.” Thus, the Crimson Kings are, as the Black Templars, demonstrably over strength and outside the bounds of the Codex Astartes, although dramatically less so in both of these respects than the Black Templars are. How much are they beyond over strenght cause if they are almost double the normal size I think the Inquistion would come knocking on their door. The relationship with Sylvana doesn't look like it's that important right now and seems to only be there so they could win against the Necrons. While your idea about the conflicting beliefs in the chapter has merrit, you need to flesh it out more. You could make it more convincing by giving the chapter a rough history before they met her and describe how they were before they met her. Learning all of the details of this, Josiah called up the Chapter’s Chief Librarian and Grand Reclusiarch to discuss with them the possibility of removing Sylvana from the Marines. The Chief Librarian explained that she had wound herself so inextricably around the Marines’ very souls that they were guaranteed to either be damned with her or be saved with her, if such a thing is even possible for a Daemon. “It is, however, likely,” he continued, “that if we protect our future initiates from her, they will be free of her influence and she will be banished from the Chapter without threat to us.” He explained that, yes, she could be pried loose, but the process would likely kill them all. The Grand Reclusiarch concluded the meeting by saying slowly, “The great question falls to us, then. The choice between tainted servants of the Emperor... or the death of an entire Chapter of His finest.” I like the notion that the chapter knows it is tainted and that they are no longer the Emperor's finest. Maybe the chapter high command decided that they would do their duty but that the future is with the new initiates and they protect them as much as possible. Maybe they're waiting until there are enough pure battle-brothers to make sure that the chapter will endure. The Crimson Kings are currently in a rather confused state concerning their beliefs. As a Chapter founded in the line of Sanguinius, they honor him most highly along with the Emperor, with a number of references to Dorn on account of their appreciation of the Black Templars. However, they have recently been forced to deal with their new bond with Sylvana. Thus far, the Chaplains are promoting the belief that, with her tied to them, she is overpowered and inspired by their faith in the Emperor and Sanguinius, and that she will inevitably assist them in protection from Chaos because she fights primarily in and with the Warp. Regardless of this, the idea of a loyal Chapter being tied so completely to a Chaos Daemon is trying for these Marines, and their decisions on this issue will indubitably determine the Chapter’s fate. On one hand, the Marines could eventually swing towards orthodoxy and choose to purge themselves rather than suffer this daemon to live; on the other, they could choose to embrace her and risk damnation and exile for the sake of their continued fight for the Imperium. Only time will tell.... Flesh it out more with some beliefs that they already had and see how it conflicts with being bonded with Sylvana. Maybe some sidebars describing marines going on a suicide mission because they can't live with themselves and some marines embracing it and getting gifts form Sylvana. Maybe even a Chaplain who teaches his charges that Sylvana is the only way. Before battle, the force chants the following in unison: “Kill by any means necessary! Win by any means necessary! Live by any means necessary! Die by any means necessary!” Too repetitive if you ask me. Might be better if you lose a line of it (perhaps the first line). Just "Victory by any means necessary" would be a good way to combine the spirit of all those lines pretty well. At least in my mind. Also the line "die by any means necessary" sounds odd. You also made clear that the chapter likes to get close and personal and almost neglects ranged combat, so they don't kill, win, live and die by any necessary. Maybe you could come up with something that makes them seem like ruthless marines that will use everything at their disposal to win. I like the overall idea but it needs work. Keep up the good work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2961096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 How much are they beyond over strenght cause if they are almost double the normal size I think the Inquistion would come knocking on their door. The relationship with Sylvana doesn't look like it's that important right now and seems to only be there so they could win against the Necrons. While your idea about the conflicting beliefs in the chapter has merrit, you need to flesh it out more. You could make it more convincing by giving the chapter a rough history before they met her and describe how they were before they met her. After rereading the IA, they shouldn't be over strength any more than anyone else is. As for Sylvana, well, that's part of my issue. That was the foundational idea of the entire IA, and it was intended to be a recent event. My main issue is that the Black Templar stuff was a rather desperate attempt to give them some kind of identity beyond "Blood Angels Successor." I'm not sure whether or not my attempt worked, but you seem OK with it. Learning all of the details of this, Josiah .... The Grand Reclusiarch concluded the meeting by saying slowly, “The great question falls to us, then. The choice between tainted servants of the Emperor... or the death of an entire Chapter of His finest.” I like the notion that the chapter knows it is tainted and that they are no longer the Emperor's finest. Maybe the chapter high command decided that they would do their duty but that the future is with the new initiates and they protect them as much as possible. Maybe they're waiting until there are enough pure battle-brothers to make sure that the chapter will endure. The unknown is part of it - instead of the past unknown that people love, this is a future unknown. It makes the Chapter a lot harder to make, since they really don't have a separate identity beyond the grafted-on BT stuff. The Crimson Kings are currently in a rather confused state concerning their beliefs.... Flesh it out more with some beliefs that they already had and see how it conflicts with being bonded with Sylvana. Maybe some sidebars describing marines going on a suicide mission because they can't live with themselves and some marines embracing it and getting gifts form Sylvana. Maybe even a Chaplain who teaches his charges that Sylvana is the only way. That is actually great. I'm not sure why I hadn't thought of it, but it makes perfect sense. Now I just need to figure out how to BBcode those sidebars.... Before battle, the force chants the following in unison: “Kill by any means necessary! Win by any means necessary! Live by any means necessary! Die by any means necessary!” Too repetitive if you ask me. Might be better if you lose a line of it (perhaps the first line). Just "Victory by any means necessary" would be a good way to combine the spirit of all those lines pretty well. At least in my mind. Also the line "die by any means necessary" sounds odd. You also made clear that the chapter likes to get close and personal and almost neglects ranged combat, so they don't kill, win, live and die by any necessary. Maybe you could come up with something that makes them seem like ruthless marines that will use everything at their disposal to win. I'm used to people associating "any means necessary" less with "use all the tools at your disposal" than with "Go ahead and punch him in the nuts, it only matters that you win," so that's the way I addressed it. Anyways, I'm pretty bad at this section, so I don't know all of what to do with it. I'll try something else. I like the overall idea but it needs work.Keep up the good work. Thanks for the C&C! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2961136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromat Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 This is an interesting idea Erasmus. Looks like you've got some good comments, so I don't really have anything to add. I do look forward on how you resolve the issues with your chapter master though. Also, where did you get your signature? I'm a big Magic geek and that looks like a fun quiz to take. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2961151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 “Why are you telling me this as though it were something horrific? If our gene-seed is not purely Sanguinian, then it fills me with pride to think that my blood comes also from the sons of mighty and loyal Dorn!” -Chapter Master Josiah, upon hearing tell of a possible genetic connection between the Crimson Kings and the Black Templars The Crimson Kings were founded from the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. There is evidence, however, that their gene-seed was combined with that of the Black Templars, which is of course unproven, especially given the rate at which the Flaw is progressing in the Crimson Kings. The Flaw, however, has become far less noticeable since the Chapter has been under the influence of Sylvana. I'm not really sure why this bit is in the IA - it seems to be there solely for the sake of justifying the similarities to the Black Templars, rather than adding to the character of the Crimson Kings. PRE-POST EDIT: I was going to talk about the possible long-term effects that having the daemon around could have on the geneseed, but since her discovery is a recent event, I've deleted on account of me not paying attention properly. :nuke: Hopefully you can forgive the lack of suggestions for what to replace the 'maybe-BT-maybe-not' with; I seem to have run out of good ideas for the moment. :nuke: Before battle, the force chants the following in unison: “Kill by any means necessary! Win by any means necessary! Live by any means necessary! Die by any means necessary!” As they charge into the fray, the entire force echoes this in unison by screaming “Kill, win, live, die!” Your chapter chants Hammerfall before the fight? :huh: ;) I'm honestly not sure that 'die by any means neccesary' is a good line for a battle-cry, though. It seems rather self-defeating to me! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2962833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 The Crimson Kings were founded from the gene-seed of the Blood Angels. There is evidence, however, that their gene-seed was combined with that of the Black Templars, which is of course unproven, especially given the rate at which the Flaw is progressing in the Crimson Kings. The Flaw, however, has become far less noticeable since the Chapter has been under the influence of Sylvana. I'm not really sure why this bit is in the IA - it seems to be there solely for the sake of justifying the similarities to the Black Templars, rather than adding to the character of the Crimson Kings. Don't worry. It's already gone in the next draft. :) PRE-POST EDIT:I was going to talk about the possible long-term effects that having the daemon around could have on the geneseed, but since her discovery is a recent event, I've deleted on account of me not paying attention properly. :) Hopefully you can forgive the lack of suggestions for what to replace the 'maybe-BT-maybe-not' with; I seem to have run out of good ideas for the moment. :sweat: Actually, I was going for an idea of throwing the mystery into the future, where so many Chapters have it in the past. You're more than welcome to speculate on its effects, and I'd love to hear your thoughts! ;) Your chapter chants Hammerfall before the fight? :blink: :woot: I'm honestly not sure that 'die by any means neccesary' is a good line for a battle-cry, though. It seems rather self-defeating to me! :lol: That was the idea, yes. B) And I justified the "die by any means necessary" in my head by arguing that that's what the Death COmpany are here for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2962957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 PRE-POST EDIT:I was going to talk about the possible long-term effects that having the daemon around could have on the geneseed, but since her discovery is a recent event, I've deleted on account of me not paying attention properly. :P Hopefully you can forgive the lack of suggestions for what to replace the 'maybe-BT-maybe-not' with; I seem to have run out of good ideas for the moment. :( Actually, I was going for an idea of throwing the mystery into the future, where so many Chapters have it in the past. You're more than welcome to speculate on its effects, and I'd love to hear your thoughts! ;) Fair enough. My basic idea was that Sylvana's extended presence should have a subtle effect on the Black Rage - for instance the Crimson Kings suffering from the rage gradually stop seeing themselves as their Primarch fighting Horus, and start seeing themselves as previous great heroes of the Chapter taking on insurmountable odds instead. The net effect is the same, but it's a cutting of ties with the CK's past as true loyalists, as well as a muddying of the waters around Sylvana's true motivations. :P And I justified the "die by any means necessary" in my head by arguing that that's what the Death COmpany are here for. Good enough for me. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2963136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Hawk Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Ah, now I've found the new topic. (thanks btw Ace Debonair)This whole concept is fascinating, and also feasible. I agree with Ace on the Black Rage front, it helps make them more unique than other BA successors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2967327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 My basic idea was that Sylvana's extended presence should have a subtle effect on the Black Rage - for instance the Crimson Kings suffering from the rage gradually stop seeing themselves as their Primarch fighting Horus, and start seeing themselves as previous great heroes of the Chapter taking on insurmountable odds instead. The net effect is the same, but it's a cutting of ties with the CK's past as true loyalists, as well as a muddying of the waters around Sylvana's true motivations. :) Ooh, that's good. Again, that's in the future, so I don't think it'll be in the IA, but it is a great thought. Alright, third draft is nearing post-ready. I just have to figure out what makes the Crimson Paladins' planet a "Fortress" and write a few sidebars, then it'll go up. I'll probably keep the title "On the edge of honor." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2968580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llagos_Tyrant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'll start off with the negative and end on a high note. My only real concern, is how they are keeping Sylvana from the rest of the Imperium or any Inquisitors or other Chapters Librarians that happen to come calling? A Daemon like Sylvana is bound to have a detectable presence or do they normally just avoid contact with other Chapters and the Imperium as some do? Food for Thought - Taking an Avatar of Khaine and modelling it a bit would do a really neat representation of Sylvana for use as a Counts As figure. Maybe a Venerable/Iron Clad Dreadnought for games, and for fun games amongst friends, you could develop some home grown rules on here for her to use. My other point is that the thought of a charging horde of Marines screaming at the enemy, firing bolters and revving their chainswords while they below their intentions to die by 'any means necessary' is as hilarious, as it is confusing. I can imagine them just dropping their weapons in front of a confused group of Ork rabble, or slitting their wrists and trying to drown the enemy in their blood. The whole thing screams of comedy. So I would probably take that out. On a high note, I really love the idea of Sylvana. In fact, I think it's great and provides an amazing modelling opportunity and sets your chapter apart from others. I'm also inclined to favour the approach of Sylvana as a shard of Isha, but that is your decision. All in all, I enjoyed it immensely, but I'd like to see the Colour Scheme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2968793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 My only real concern, is how they are keeping Sylvana from the rest of the Imperium or any Inquisitors or other Chapters Librarians that happen to come calling? A Daemon like Sylvana is bound to have a detectable presence or do they normally just avoid contact with other Chapters and the Imperium as some do? Once again, this JUST HAPPENED. There hasn't really been any "this has happened since" because there isn't a "since." Even if it were something major enough (if you read the comments above you, you'll see how I argued that it isn't) to be noticed, the Imperium isn't exactly a place with short response times. Food for Thought - Taking an Avatar of Khaine and modelling it a bit would do a really neat representation of Sylvana for use as a Counts As figure. Maybe a Venerable/Iron Clad Dreadnought for games, and for fun games amongst friends, you could develop some home grown rules on here for her to use. I was planning on using her as Mephiston or the Sanguinor, actually, a I started a thread here that discusses modeling her. My other point is that the thought of a charging horde of Marines screaming at the enemy, firing bolters and revving their chainswords while they below their intentions to die by 'any means necessary' is as hilarious, as it is confusing. I can imagine them just dropping their weapons in front of a confused group of Ork rabble, or slitting their wrists and trying to drown the enemy in their blood. The whole thing screams of comedy. So I would probably take that out. Please read the comments above you. I argue the "die by any means necessary" as being what the Death Company is there to do. On a high note, I really love the idea of Sylvana. In fact, I think it's great and provides an amazing modelling opportunity and sets your chapter apart from others. I'm also inclined to favour the approach of Sylvana as a shard of Isha, but that is your decision. As I told the last guy, find me a way to make it work sensibly and it's done. Remember, though, that the events surrounding the Fall of the Eldar happened long after the Necrons were sealed away. Other than that, thanks! I'm glad you think it's something good; I'm sick and tired of the "OMG we have no idea who we are bloody Inquisitors keeping secrets" BS. All in all, I enjoyed it immensely, but I'd like to see the Colour Scheme. The color scheme is available in this thread about my LPC vow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2968982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llagos_Tyrant Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My comment on the 'Death by any means necessary' wasn't a criticism. I just enjoyed it. I did read through the previous comments but I guess I missed more than I thought. I'm sick and tired of the "OMG we have no idea who we are bloody Inquisitors keeping secrets" BS. ... Well at least my Chapter didn't involve Inquisitors ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2969061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Hawk Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Just a quick criticism, the name Crimson Kings suggests a link to Magnus the Red and the 1k Sons. Be careful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2973934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Latest version of this IA is here, for any of you who want to see the latest stuff on the (renamed again) Crimson Paladins! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244432-the-edge-of-damnation-crimson-kings/#findComment-2976939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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