Dosjetka Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Hello all! I'm thinking of starting up a small GK force of 750 points and then maybe building up from there. I'm seeking advice on how to build an all-rounder army with a few personal restrictions (see below). I've only ever played one game and I only intend to play "casual", so please keep those things in mind when explaining stuff (I don't really want to go into Mathammer, Killhammer, uber units, etc...). Here are the said restrictions: -> Pure Grey Knights. -> No Dreadknights, Terminators as Troops (so only Paladins), special characters, Storm Ravens, Grand Masters, Brotherhood Champions, Purifiers, Inquisitors, Henchmen, Assassins. -> Leaves me with the following: Brother-Captain, Librarian, Techmarine, Venerable Dreadnought, Paladin Squad, Strike Squad, Interceptor Squad, Purgation Sqaud, Dreadnought, Land Raider (except Redeemer). It doesn't give me a large choice of units, but I've excluded some units for various reasons (fluff, look & feel mostly) and so I will not be using those in any case right now. Any advice is appreciated :tu: Cheers, Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Low point games can be very hard for Grey Knights, especially with your additional restrictions. As you only have 1 troop option, and 2 HQs with the same base cost left available to you, you can start with the minimum: 2x 5 man Strike Squad, 200 points Librarian or Brother-Captain, 150 points That's already half of your army points filled up before you add any other units, additional options or wargear. Paladins are then probably ruled out, as even if you put the rest of your points into them, you'd at best get 5 models, which wouldn't make for a very effective fighting force. Obviously, having only 10 scoring models is going to be difficult, especially because you don't want to pay the additional 25 points for a Grand Master to get Grand Strategy, so you probably want to protect them as best you can. That basically leaves you with 3 options: - Footslog your army, and increase resiliency of your troops by getting more troop models to either get more squads and/or expand the 2 you have already. - Give your troop units protection and mobilisation in the form of transports. But as your only HQ units can only wear Terminator armour, which can't enter Razorbacks or Rhinos, you either have to keep them seperate from your troops or buy them an expensive Land Raider. Land Raiders are tough, especially as a lot of armies can't deal with AV14 very well at low point games, but it's not a very offensive unit for its point cost either, and it prevents the contents from shooting themselves, limiting your offensive power even further. - Deep strike your army onto the board, but which such a low number of squads, you'll be at the mercy of the reserve roll. So, in the case of a footslogging list, you could look at something like this: Librarian with The Shrouding, Sanctuary and Might of Titan 10 man Strike Squad with 2 Psycannons and a Daemon hammer on the Justicar 10 man Strike Squad with 2 Psycannons Dreadnought with 2x twin-linked autocannons and psybolt ammunition 750 to the point. Attach the Librarian to one of the Strike Squads and try to protect them from shooting with Shrouding and from assault with Sanctuary. The Daemon hammer and Might of Titan is to protect you being held up by enemy walkers or monstrous creatures. The Dreadnought and psycannons are to open transports so you can use your stormbolters on the contents, and to shoot at higher toughness values. It has to deal with most opponents by shooting, as with only 1 attack Strike Knights will lose to most assault capable units, dispite them having all force weapons. It won't be the most competative list for reasons given above, but it's a nice starting force. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2955136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Given the restrictions, I can't think of a better list than the one recommended by Redemption, for the reasons he explained above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2955266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I'm gonna agree as well you've placed quite severe restrictions on your army. For HQ I'd say a librarian is always a good choice I personally never field the captain because the grand masters strategy is just too good for 25 points. I think you might be able to get by with only 15 power armoured marines saving you some points but there's not much left to spend it on other then maybe a transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2955984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Yes, you could make one of the squads a 5 or 6 man squad with a Razorback to add some diversity to your army list. However, as I personally find that Strike and Interceptor Squads lack that certain kind of umph at such low model counts, I usually only take Paladins, Purifiers and the occasional Purgation Squad in squads of 5/6. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2956015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Not sure why you'd place those restrictions on yourself, as even if you use a Grandmaster, you can always call him a Captain. I use a Captain that I call a Chapter Master in my Biker army. As already said, two strike squads, a librarian (the librarian is always a better choice than the bro-captain) and a twin autocannon dreadnought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2956728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks to you all for the advice, especially RedemptionNL :) As for why I imposed such restrictions? Well, for one, some of the units I have omitted have hideous models, some have horrific fluff and others just don't please me. A bit of a mix of reasons really. Again, thanks a lot chaps :P Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2957120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 You're most welcome! Enjoy your new army and good luck. Let us know how it works out. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2957143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 You're most welcome! Enjoy your new army and good luck. Let us know how it works out. :blink: I will do :D By the way, is there a good alternative to the Rifleman Dreadnought? Or not really? Cheers, Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2957159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hmm for twin linked S8 shots the rifle dread with psybolt is the best choice. If you're willing to settle for S6 shots razorback with psybolt ammo are pretty good as well. There's also the option to take razor with psybolt ammo and twin assault cannons but that gets very costly point wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2957218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The 'problem' is that the Grey Knights have limited access to long range weaponry. The Psy-Rifleman dread, with its cheap and reliable firepower, is tough to beat. There are some alternatives to anti-vehicle/high toughness, but most have other drawbacks: Psycannons - Awesome weapon and widely available throughout the army, but it does have half the range. Godhammer pattern Land Raiders - 2x TL Lascannons, and with an extra 5 points, a S6 TL Heavy Bolter. Tough unit, especially if you keep it at range, but expensive for the amount of firepower. Normally good to keep a nice counter-assault unit in it like Death Cult Assassins, but you can't take those because of your restrictions. Stormravens - Good mobility and access to most heavy weapons, but not as durable as a Dreadnought due to its size. Also on the list of your restricted units. Daemon Hammers - Are S10 with Hammerhand, but you need to be in melee. Dreadknights - Also need to be in melee, and on the list of your restricted units. Razorbacks - Psybolt Razorbacks are a cheap source of TL S6 Heavy Bolters, but they lack the range and firepower of the rifleman. Other weapon options are available, but add a lot to the price. Orbital Strike Relay - Has powerful shells, but very unaccurate. Especially the Lance Strike has a near 0 chance of actually hitting the target you're aiming at, as you at the very least scatter 2 inches. Then there are a couple of Inquisition options that can handle vehicles, like the Jokaero, Servitors, Psykers and Acolytes, but those don't meet your pure GK requirement. So you basically only have Psycannons, Psy-Rifleman Dreads and Razorbacks left if you want to pop vehicles by shooting. While massed Psycannon fire can deal with most vehicles, you still have to get in range. As said, the Dread is tough to beat. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2957333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 RdemptionNL & Drachnon: Cheers chaps! The only real "problem" I had with the Rifleman Dread is the modelling part (they look damn ridiculous with those autocannons on the sides), though it actually makes me want to do some conversions to make it look better, so that's not a problem. And cheers for the detailed explanation RedemptionNL ^_^ Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Personal preferrence of course, but I actually quite like the look of a Dreadnought with the Quad Autocannons from the Aegis Defense Line kit: http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2010/11/8/153515_md-Dreadnought,%20Mantis%20Warriors,%20Space%20Marines,%20Tranquility,%20Venerable,%20Warhammer%2040,000.jpg Image courtesy of Gitsplitta on Dakka Dakka Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I just don't see the reasoning behind your restrictions. I see a point in not using the grand master, if you find his grand strategy cheesy, but why limit yourself modelwise? You're excluding dreadknights, storm ravens and henchmen that are all unique to the army. I can understand if you find the DK ugly, but trust me, a little work and a more dynamic pose, and you have an awesome centrepiece for the army :D If its balance you're worried about, I'd suggest that you just allow your opponent some extra points instead - based on your own personal experiences in your own gaming group - and just leave it at that. True balance is something that you'll never find in 40K anyway :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 THH: Cheers for popping by and commenting, always good to have multiple opinions ;) I don't really want to go full-blow into the details and I don't want to start ranting so I'll cut it short: I don't like most of the fluff that Matt Ward has put in this book and even though they have good rules, I find them very cheesy (for some units) and they have become too mainstream for my taste (before, I really saw them as an army that could only be played by the experienced player). Also, I just don't like the new feel to the book and I much prefer the old 3rd Ed. version. As for the Dreadknight, I would love to take one and convert into an Ork machine or an AdMech one, but to me, it doesn't fit the GK thing of "a lone warrior, ten times smaller than the Greater Daemon he is fighting with, battling until his last breath to save Humanity". That is my image of the GK's and this Codex has smashed that to pieces. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Heretic Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Oh thats why :) I understand and agree. The DH codex were a lot more engaging in its fluff, and the amount of special rules are quite silly and some poorly thought out. What attracted me to the DH, were the mix of 'cannonfodder' stormtroopers and the über elite of GK termies throw in henchmen for a great variation in models. I still play like this, my troops mainly consist of warrior acolytes (stormtroopers) 'drafted' to support the few heroic knights available with a dash of the more 'exotic' henchmen thrown in to hang with the inquisitors. So it looks old school, instead of just 'silver marine wolf angels of ultraness'. So what I'm saying, is that you're not 'forced' to go with the easy choices and spam purifiers and space monkeys all over the place, the list have room for more variety. - besides, creative modelling can do a lot for a unit choice. Consider instead of building 'the baby carrier' or a giant killer robot, you could model a single GK termie standing on mound of lesser daemon corpses, beset on all sides. Such a mini-diorama could offset base size and size differences, while reviving your image of 'the lone knight' :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 So what I'm saying, is that you're not 'forced' to go with the easy choices and spam purifiers and space monkeys all over the place, the list have room for more variety. well you could always take cortez and spam henchman too . with razorbacks that cant be stuned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 I understand and agree. The DH codex were a lot more engaging in its fluff, and the amount of special rules are quite silly and some poorly thought out. Exactly. When I looked at some of the psychic powers, the reaction I had was pretty much "Wut? LOL". And what I'll most probably do in the near future is write an update for the old Codex. I'd much prefer that. Anyway, enough about the problems of current Codex! I really appreciate your input THH and the idea of the "lone warrior" is a good one indeed. I may have a look at that :) Cheers, Ludovic Edit: well you could always take cortez and spam henchman too . with razorbacks that cant be stuned. And that is not what I want, as explained in the first post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 From the sound of it, you are not looking for a competitive list. At that point you really have the option to play with whatever you would like to play with. Don't like the way Rifleman look, don't take them, run Lascannon, Missle Dreads, or CCW + Lascannon/TL autocannon Dreads. OF the HQ choices you have left, if you like the BC run him, but really for him to be effective he is going to be running Cheesey grenades, So the libby is very similar. The main issue I see is two fold. 1.) You have limited yourself to very few points. 2.) You decided to eliminate most of the points efficient units from the Dex. What this means is that you are at a huge disadvantage at 750 points. The list above is pretty decent (probably as good as it gets, but most armies I have seen at 750 can handle it because it simply does not put put enough scary shooting. GK units are just too expensive at this point level to be truly effective. I mean you can take the above list or Risk only having 10 Troop models, and SPam Psycannons with Purgation squads (you can get 10 Psycannons in at 750 with 2 purgation squads.) but without using the GM which you are not this list is really short on scoring models Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 if you don't like the standard auto cannon arms from the aegis defense line there are quite a few conversion guides online to improve them. There's also forge world but when I checked they didn't have matching auto cannons for left and right arms (might be different now). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 if you don't like the standard auto cannon arms from the aegis defense line there are quite a few conversion guides online to improve them. There's also forge world but when I checked they didn't have matching auto cannons for left and right arms (might be different now). They do have matching Autocannon arms actually; they have a left and a right MK V arm and only a right MK IV arm. Which is a pity, as the MK IV one is better looking (IMO at least :D). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I have not read the entire thread but want to say to the OP make sure to read Crynn's posts here. He is a very knowledgeable GK player. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I understand , still if you dont plan to take cortez and you dont plan to take a GM and no other special HQs , then your kind of a left alone with a librarian who is a support charcter [in normal sized armies in to a 750 one he doesnt even fit in]. he runs in in termi armor , you wont get paladins for him to run to act as bodyguard and you dont want to run normal termis .and he doesnt fit in to a rhino and you wont find points for a LR for him[same problem as paladins] and SR is A bad for him B you dont wont to run one . + who says a GM stats dude cant be brother cpt . Stern is one , there were bound to be others like that in the whole history of GKs . all this edition GW is telling people to counts as , why not do it ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2958859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 breng77: Cheers for the advice mate :D I do know I'm handicapping myself with so many restrictions, but I like a challenge (even though everybody here seems to be telling me it's going to be tough with this army) and the army that RedemptionNL proposed seems like a good one (to my inexperienced eyes, at least), so I'm fine with that :) As for the autocannon arms, I may just get the IG ones and cut them down a bit to make them shorter and just stick them on the Dread. RNL: I agree, the Mk VI ones look much better. A shame really. Black Orange: Cheers for that, I'll keep an eye out for him then! the jeske: Is the GM really that good? Maybe I will swap him round with the Librarian, but the Librarian (right now at least) seems to be a good versatile choice. I could be (very) wrong though. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2959184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 the jeske: Is the GM really that good? Maybe I will swap him round with the Librarian, but the Librarian (right now at least) seems to be a good versatile choice. I could be (very) wrong though. The Librarian and the Grand Master fulfill somewhat different roles, so that's a harder comparison, but for me the 25 point increase of a Grand Master over a Brother Captain is a no brainer. Grand Strategy is such a useful rule: make a Venerable Dreadnought a tough scoring unit for your home objective, Scout or outflank a unit with Personal Teleporters or in a dedicated transport, make your units more killy in killpoints game with Counter-Attack or re-roll 1's to Wound in both shooting and melee. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244443-starting-out-with-grey-knights/#findComment-2959189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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