Unification War?

[TennisBall]

I've come across various sources from time to time that make comments like 'brother X fought in the Unification Wars' and 'some of them being veterans of the Unification Wars'. It wasn't until I read 'Outcast Dead' that I realised that the old Thunder Warriors were something quite different and didn't go on to be marines. That said, if it was the Thunder Warriors that won the Unification Wars then who are all these marines that fought in them?

 

On a related point there is the short story called something like 'The Last Church'. In it the Emperor tries to talk the last priest into leaving his church before it's burnt to the ground. Outside are astartes in fully enclosed plate. The priest makes the distinction as he fought against the Thunder Warriors and saw them in their "MK I" Thunder armour whereas these soldiers were in MK II (I presume). Does this mean that some of the Thunder Warriors did become Astartes, or did Astartes take part in the final battles, or did they exist before the final battles and the emperor was holding them back to let the Thunder Warriors be killed off, or did they only become ready to be used after the wars were over?

[Warp Angel]

Thunder Warriors existed at the same time as the early Marines, probably before the Primarchs were rediscovered and both probably fought in the Unification Wars, which weren't really over by the time the Crusade had started. Earth was never (and still isn't) a safe place.

[Doghouse]

I can't remember off the top of my head (might have be A Thousand Sons) but I seem to remember mention of them being enhanced humans, bionically as well as genetically, that ended up going a bit mad. I remember Garro talking about being in the Dusk Raiders so I'm guessing that you either had the thunder warriors then the Astartes Regiments came later or that the Regiments were started with the thunder warriors before being phased out with the introduction of the Astartes.

 

edit: Just seen the updated stuff in the Outcast Dead discussion thread complete with spoilers on the book: Link

[Olis]

Iirc Thunder Warriors were exclusive to the Unification Wars - their number were spent during such fighting. The Space Marines, however, aren't exclusive to the Great Crusade (I think). All of the very first Space Marines were Terran in origin so it's not much of a stretch to say they had fought on Terra at some point before they left the planet - perhaps to quell an unruly area or depose a lesser tyrant still at large somewhere.

[Midwest]

I don't think the exact nature of the transition from Thunder Warriors to Space Marines has ever been detailed.

 

As you state, there's been references to the original, Terran-born elements of many Legions having been vets of the Unification Wars, and IIRC one of the legions (I *think* the Thousand Sons) were first used to 'mop up' some final areas of resistance on Terra before heading out on the Great Crusade.

 

My best guess is that the TW fought in the majority of the Unification Wars, up to the greatest and culminating battles that established the Emperor/Imperium as the ruling force of Terra. Presumably, there were still areas of tension or resistance, or the occasional rebellion, which the Legions took part in, although that makes it seem like they're overstating it a bit that they took part in the UW.

 

I suspect originally that the intent was that the original Legions were Thunder Warrior legions, and that the transition from TW to SM was smoother and more akin to the Legions 'upgrading' to Space Marines once the tech was introduced, replacing the original terran-born TWs and then being the sole method of producing new warriors once they recruit from each legion's homeworld. So in the case of the Death Guard as an example:

 

Beginning of UW: Dusk Raiders legion of Thunder Warriors under the Emperor

End of UW/Begin of Great Crusade: Dusk Raiders legion of TW and SM, ratio increasing in favor of SM. New recruits are Terran-born SMs, veterans are mix of TW and SM, possibly mostly SMs at this point.

Reunited with Mortarion: Legion renamed Death Guard, new recruits are Barbarus-born SMs, most or all DG are SMs at this point.

 

I have no 'sources' for this, btw - just my suspicion that this was the original concept of how the Emperor moved from TW to SMs. I say this because in part you had things like an actual mini of a SM in Thunder Armour, and fluff in armour articles that some chapters still had examples of Thunder Armour that they venerated, and the fact that some legions had originally gone under different names, which I think originally further pointed to the legions as a continuation of earlier units rather than completely new.

 

But over time the Legions became SM-only, with the TW as a completely separate concept as an army that predated the legions. This of course makes it a bit vague/confusing over how they still have UW veterans if, as TOD seems to heavily imply, the TW fought the final battle of the war and were eliminated shortly thereafter to make way for the Primarch/Marine projects.

 

My personal opinion is that, and I hate saying this as I liked TOD, but this is another area where TOD in particular and the background in general hasn't been well thought out (or we're missing a vital piece of info). The image of the TW unifying Terra under the Emperor, only to be 'betrayed' by the Emperor, yet have their most famous hero escape yet mysteriously harbor no ill-will for it, I think this fell for the 'rule of cool' notion that it's a great story to use, even though the details don't fit the established background.

 

My guess is, the likely explanation is:

 

The Primarch/Marine projects predate the end of the UW - the Emperor ostensibly wouldn't have culled the TW without the replacement force already in place, both to ensure control over a newly-conquered Terra and that the projects actually succeeded.

 

As a result, there were likely initial 'batches' of Marines that were ready to fight (or be 'field-tested') during the UW itself.

 

Enough SMs were created by the end of the UW that the Emperor felt safe to cull the TW immediately after.

 

The one real issue with that is that, in TOD, the Marines don't know the TW were culled - they buy fully into the story that they died fighting. Even given that these particular Marines might not be Terran-born veterans of the UW, presumably if SMs took part in the UW alongside the TW, there would be some sort of knowledge - even as urban legend if nothing else - that the TW were intentionally culled rather than completely lost to battle.

 

A second issue might be that this also implies the Legions were created simultaneously, rather than by legion numbering. Personally that doesn't bother me, and I don't recall any background specifying that because the DA were the first legion, they were the first created (and created completely before the 2nd legion was begun). But for those who have that POV, it seems unlikely that the cull story could have been suppressed if multiple legions took some part in the UW (because assuming a bare minimum of 10k Marines per initial legion, let alone multiple 10k or even a full 100k, there must have been at least 30-40k Marines on Terra ready to fight if at least 3-4 legions have UW veterans in them).

[TennisBall]

That's the dilemma Midwest, personally I'd go along with what you wrote in regards the TW being phased out by astartes as the superior technology was able to be implemented. Maybe whatshisname got a bang to the head and suffered some sort of delusion about being made obsolete because I thought the TW fought in what were the proto legions too. Maybe he was from one of the legions that eventually turned traitor or even from one of the two missing legions and he doesn't want to admit to that. It's another hole in the fluff or the consistency for sure.

 

Of course if the TW were simply dumped once their usefulness was at an end then it might be another reason for the primarchs who rebelled to believe that they too would be got rid of once they'd done their job. Certainly the TW could have been dumped in a situation akin to Istvaan III. Send the legion units into battle that still have lots of TW in them for the final battle to purge the legions of the TW leaving the astartes to continue the traditions of the legions on their own. That would then make such a purge an example for Horus to use later when he purges his own legions of those no longer useful to him.

[Midwest]

I think the main timeline issue that currently exists with mixing TW and SM is that, based on the reactions of the Marines in TOD, and the reaction of Corax in DL to the Primarch retirement home, it doesn't appear that the Legions have any knowledge that the TW were intentionally wiped out:

 

A.) In TOD,

the Marines are stunned to see Arik Taranis still alive. It's clear that the TW haven't been kept a complete secret - they know who he is and what he is said to have done during the UW - but they have no inkling that at least part of the UW 'legends' are cover stories for a massacre of the Emperor's original armies. Combined with the comments Arik makes, that by the time in the Great Crusade that the Heresy begins to unfold that the people of Terra itself already consider most of the UW battle legends to be exagerated or complete myths, the implication seems to be few if any elements of the Emperor's forces survive the final battle (and thus don't carry on any kind of rumor, hint, legend, etc. of what happened to the TW). In all, this seems to preclude any involvement from significant SM elements.

 

 

B.) In DL,

Corax sees what appears to be the designated retirement suites of the Primarchs. By his reaction, this doesn't appear to be a known part of the overall plan to him (and presumably the other Primarchs). IIRC, Corax even specifically ponders the possibility of there being a life without warfare, with an Imperium completely united and having eradicated all threats in the galaxy. If Corax had an idea that the Emperor doesn't keep his toys past their expiration dates, it seems likely he would have specifically reacted with surprise to the idea that the Emperor had planned to keep his sons after complete peace was achieved - yet his surprise seems purely that there will ever be a time when he won't be needed on a battlefield somewhere. In other words, Corax seems to think that the Primarchs' destinies were something akin to open-ended - endless war until eventually falling in battle. He doesn't seem to have any notion that the Emperor at some point saw them being permanently 'retired' - either by culling or actual retirement.

 

 

Keep in mind that, throughout the HH, both the Primarchs and Marines seem to be aware of what happened to the two missing Legions. While we the readers don't know what caused the destruction (or such) of those legions, the fact that the SMs of the Heresy-era are aware of that legacy, but not the true story of the TW, again seems to strongly imply that they must post-date the TWs, as the TWs either in reality or false accusation don't appear to have done anything or been accused of anything that would have warranted eradication and complete forbiddence to be discussed or even remembered.

 

So it seems very unlikely that the SMs can be around while the TWs are still alive and fighting, even though that seems to contradict the relatively consistent portrayal of the legions as originating or otherwise rising from the TW armies that helped unify Terra under the Emperor, which only really works if there's some overlapping transition. Although I guess another possibility is that, for example, the 'original' Dusk Raiders are wiped out at the final UW battle and then one of the new SM legions gets that name assigned to it as part of the commemoration of the TW used to cover their true fates.

 

This theoretically would explain how SMs know of their exploits, and possibly even have relics of their gear, with a further retcon to solidify that any SMs that fought on Terra were doing so as 'mop-up' operations that technically are connected to the UW but post-date the final real battles of the war.

 

The other possible way out is that, with men like Kor Phaeron and Luther, it appears that there were at least some instances were men who weren't of the 'correct' age to become SMs underwent the process (or something similar). I guess one could kinda-maybe try to retcon an explanation that the legions, upon raising the first waves from their homeworlds, may have contained significant numbers of 'non-standard' Marines (for lack of a better term), and that in time such men (i.e. warriors who weren't quite 'full' or 'standard' Marines) were confused for the earlier Thunder Warriors and their histories (especially if the Emperor recycled the culled TW regiment names for the original legion names), thus giving rise to the Imperial/Astartes POV belief that the Marines were somehow directly connected to the TW and fought alongside them in the UW. (important given that most of the fluff is told from an Imperial POV).

 

Honestly, it just seems an ill-thought mess at this point. I liked the over-lapping version the best, but after TOD the implications IMO make it really hard to have that, unless we learn that the Emperor lobo'd the UW veterans of the legions to explain their apparent ignorance of the cull. I will say the one interesting bit that does come out is that, presumably, the most likely tools of the cull are the Custodes, something they likely do remember and mayhaps influence their view of the Legions (as another possible force of the Emperor's that they will be called upon to exterminate, even if Russ and the SW are seen as the 'official' Marine executioners).

[Ubermensch Commander]

The recent statements made in The Outcast Dead seem to be a pretty large retcon, as previous to this we have info from Collected Visions, White Dwarf articles, and 2nd edition codices if memory serves, of the earliest Legions fighting in the Emperor's Unification wars of Earth, with later completed Space Marines fighting alongside or just after the Thunder Warrior proto-marines, many of whom were incorporated into the Legions as they went out into the Crusade.

The Thunder Warriors seem to have been granted a massive boost to their capabilities in The Outcast Dead.

[Midwest]

The recent statements made in The Outcast Dead seem to be a pretty large retcon....

Agreed. I'm just not sure if it was an intentional one. I think it's possible to devise the events of TOD without realizing that said events make certains parts of the canon concerning TW less than plausible.

 

But...like with the timing issue of Magnus and Russ and Istvaan and breaking the throne, I'm assuming a future book will either 'fix' the issue or give us the missing piece that resolves it.

[Goreshed]

Thunder Warriors were referenced to not being able to maintain their upgrades and lost themselves to insanity (if need be I'll look up the exact quote but I know I've read it and have got it somewhere around here....) due to either mentally not being able to deal with it or thier upgrades (either mechanical or more organic) wouldn't be able to cope with it and died. TOD reveals that some survived but up until this point is was assumed and enforced to some degree that the Thunder Warriors weren't around any more due to this failure in their genetics (TOD has Arik saying he hoped the Emperor didn't put flaws within the TW on purposed and hoped it was out of ignorance)

 

It is hazy as to the time frame of the unification but it is possible that there was some overlap but I would think that there wouldn't be much as the reactions in TOD of the space marines there can attest to it. It is known and stated that some legions helped with the unification but we also have to keep in mind that at this point its been 200 years since the start of the Great Crusade and Emperor knows how long unification took. Not to mention those marines around that helped with the later parts of the unification could be dead or at least there are very few of them around to remember/had been there when the Thunder Warriors were around.

 

Thunder Warriors were a early templated to the Space Marines. The current marines were never upgraded from them, rather the process of turning a human into a post human started with the TW and then was refined into the Primarchs and later the legions themselves.

[Midwest]

Re-read "The Last Church" from Tales of Heresy, which happens to be by Graham McNeill.

 

The story takes place roughly 50 years after the Battle of Gaduare, but otherwise I don't think there's much to date it, other than it seems to be at or near the end of the UW. The interesting bit that relates to this thread is that at this point the Emperor is still using Thunder Warriors. When the priest sees them at the end, he recognizes them as being much the same as those he faced at Gaduare, but notes that their armour is now fully-enclosed and equipped with power-packs. It doesn't appear to be Mk.II, as the description seems to suggest that what he's seeing is a modified fully-enclosed version of the Mk.I Thunder Armour.

 

When the Emperor announces his plan to take the next step of unifying the galaxy, and the priest questions the ability of the TW to do this, the Emperor tells him that the TW won't be the ones doing this (even though at the very end of the story he in fact tells his retinue of TW that they have a galaxy to conquer), but that he's even now working on a new gene-project that will create the generals that will lead the Imperium to the stars (this would seem to be a direct reference to the Primarch project itself, rather than the presumably subsequent project of creating the Legions).

 

To me, there are two bits of interesting detail from this:

 

A.) It's hard to say where this fits compared to the "final" battle(s) of the UW. Arik Taranis is mentioned as a hero of Gaduare - which as a sidenote seems an empty title, as the priest describes it as a completely one-sided massacre by the TW - but the battle is about 50 years prior to this event. Regardless, at this point, TW still exist and have not been culled yet.

 

B.) Given the Emperor's apparent reference to the Primarch project itself still in-process, this would preclude any SM from being involved with this action or any previous ones, like the aforementioned Gaduare.

 

A third bit, as alluded to above, is that the story itself seems inconsistent about the post UW use of the TW - the Emperor tells the priest that it won't be the TW that wins the galaxy for the Imperium, but at the end he's telling the TW directly that they have a galaxy to conquer. Obviously that's a bit of performance not necessarily to take literally, but it is interesting in light of TOD's portrayal of what the Emperor does to them.

[TennisBall]

I believe they were MKII as Thunder Armour was open to the air and MK II was not and MK II followed Thunder Armour.

 

As for what the soldiers were, gene enhanced warriors wearing power armour is something that the Thunder Warriors and Astartes have in common so a similarity of look is to be expected. That's not to say that they were one thing or the other but only that the priest sees the similarity and believes them to be the same. The Emperor has no reason to correct him one way or the other as it's not relevant to why he is there.

[Midwest]

I say variant Mk1 as the Priest's description of the armour indicates two things:

 

1. He indicates that the helm (including the plume) and 'core' parts of the armour are identical to what the TW were wearing 50 and 70 years earlier, during battles that clearly featured TW wearing Mk1 armour.

 

2. His impression/description of the armour indicates, or at least implies, that the armour is Mk1 armour that's been expanded to be fully enclosed. He doesn't see it as a radically different mark of armour, just an expanded version of what was worn before.

 

While Mk2 armour is fairly crude, I don't think it's close enough in appearance to Mk1 for the Priest - who had been a bit of a rogue and mercenary in his youth and had fought against the TW at Gadaure - to have made those types of comments without the armour still being a heavily Mk1 type of armour. He clearly sees these guys as TWs, and doesn't see anything radically new or different in their armour and gear, weapons included.

 

My personal guess is that, as what might have been something of a personal or honor guard for the Emperor, these are TW with the latest and greatest Mk1 suits, and that these particular suits represent a bit of a bridge between the 'powered armour' of Mk1 and the "Power Armour" of Mk2 - the suits are starting to incorporate the fuller protection and increased powerplants of PA, but they're not full PA (and by traditional fluff can't be PA without the black carapace, which TW would not have).

[Olis]

Just a thought - Custodes have plumed helmets and enclosed armour. I was under the impression they were Custodes in The Last Church. :huh:

 

Edit: Typo.

[Midwest]

Just a thought - Custodes have plumed helmets and enclosed armour. I was under the impression they were Custodes in The Last Church. :huh:

 

Edit: Typo.

Possible, but the text specifically mentions them wielding large guns that the priest seems to identify as being the same as those wielded by the TW at Gaduare, and to me, plumes aside, Thunder Armour and Custodes Armour are so different that it's hard to see him mistaking the two.

 

Also, the armour is described as having powerpacks, complete with smoking exhausts. I don't recall seeing powerpacks on Custodes armour, but I could be wrong about that.