Gentlemanloser Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 When a Callidus Assassin arrives form reserves and uses thier Polymorphine rule, the chosen enemy unit takes d6 S4 AP2 hits. If the chosen enemy unit has a cover save, can they take it from this attack? Where is the direction of the attack coming from? What happens if the enemy unit is in cover granted by Area Terrain? As the attack isn't resolved in the Shooting Phase, can the chosen enemy unit take a Cover save at all anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 When a Callidus Assassin arrives form reserves and uses thier Polymorphine rule, the chosen enemy unit takes d6 S4 AP2 hits. If the chosen enemy unit has a cover save, can they take it from this attack? As the rule give the attack an AP value, it is not a Close Combat attack. And it does not have the Ignore Cover capability of Templates. So in the absence of any RAW, the answer should be 'yes'. Where is the direction of the attack coming from? What happens if the enemy unit is in cover granted by Area Terrain? I could find no specific evidence to answer this question, but the FAQ includes this: Q: If a Callidus Assassin chooses a unit of vehicles as its target for its Polymorphine special rule what facing is hit? (p53)A: You can choose which facing is hit, but the Callidus Assassin must then be placed within 3" of the unit, and in the arc of the facing that was hit. It offers us some insight into the intent of the rules writer. I believe that the attack should probably offer a Cover save based on the positioning of the Callidus model relative to the target unit. So if you want to avoid giving a unit a Cover save, you would have to position the model such that her final position would not grant a Cover save. As the attack isn't resolved in the Shooting Phase, can the chosen enemy unit take a Cover save at all anyway? Again, without specific rules to deny Cover saves, I can find no reason to disallow them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I agree with dswanick, nothing in the Callidus Assassin's rules disallow a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Oh I agree. :) Was just laying the problem out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I agree with dswanick on intent surely, and on most of the RAW. I think the actual rules as written only allow a cover save if in area terrain. The attack has no direction, and thus other types of cover would not apply. But models in area terrain don't need to rely on a direction for the attack to be coming from in order to claim their cover save. All other cover saves need to be able to show the models were in cover relative to the attack, which they can't demonstrate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 What about cover saves not generated form actual cover? Like (off the top of my head only) Conceal, or GK's covered by the Shrouding? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What about cover saves not generated form actual cover? Like (off the top of my head only) Conceal, or GK's covered by the Shrouding? At a guess, the same as with area terrain; it has the cover save regardless of attack direction, and Polymorphine's rules doesn't remove it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 What about cover saves not generated form actual cover? Like (off the top of my head only) Conceal, or GK's covered by the Shrouding? At a guess, the same as with area terrain; it has the cover save regardless of attack direction, and Polymorphine's rules doesn't remove it. Yes, this. I'll rephrase, any cover save which does not depend on the direction of the attack still applies in full. All others should not by RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not sure about that . The FAQ that dswanick quoted strongly implies that the 'attack' comes from the assassins final postion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2957942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not sure about that . The FAQ that dswanick quoted strongly implies that the 'attack' comes from the assassins final postion. I totally agree that's what they *intended*. But its not what the rules actually say, and the FAQ only applies to vehicles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not sure about that . The FAQ that dswanick quoted strongly implies that the 'attack' comes from the assassins final postion. I totally agree that's what they *intended*. But its not what the rules actually say, and the FAQ only applies to vehicles. Agreed. Add this one to the list of rules written in a rush before heading down to the pub to toss a couple back with the editor before he heads back to the office to proof-read the draft. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Fair enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 I suppose an extenion of this problem is the Necron Command Barge (although it's been a while since I read this rule). Unlike Dangerous terrain (which states you don't get Armour or Cover saves), I can't remember if the attack in the movement phase from the barge states it ignores Cover saves. It doesn't have an AP, but does that mean it's classed as an assault, and would therefore ignore Cover, like assaults do? And aren't there some other attacks that happen in the movement phase as well? Maybe Swooping Hawk Grenades and Dark Eldar bikes? Not sure though. Ah for introducing attacks in a phase that has no rules to support them. :D (You could also takes Perils, but that's covered for any phase) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The rules for the Sweep Attack state that no cover save is allowed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Nice! :tu: That's settled then. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244602-callidus-assassin-polymorphine-and-cover/#findComment-2958379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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