3 Attack Bikes vs. DropPod Dread w/MM and HF for Salamanders

[hoya4life3381]

Salamander army with Vulkan gets to re-roll all meltas and flamers (including multimeltas and heavy flamers).

 

Here's my list:

 

Vulkan He’Stan – 190

5 Assault Terminators w/Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 200

Land Raider Redeemer + Multimelta + Extra Armor – 265

 

10 Tactical Marines - 220

-Meltagun

-Missle Launcher (for combat squading)

-Combi-Flamer

-Rhino

 

10 Tactical Marines - 220

-Meltagun

-Missle Launcher (for combat squading)

-Combi-Flamer

-Rhino

 

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

 

Vindicator - 115

 

Total: 1350

 

I can basically take either 3 Attack Bikes or 1 DropPod Dreadnought w/MM and HF.

 

The DropDread with re-roll to hit has a 8/9 chance of hitting which is amazing and will land on turn 1 usually behind enemy rear armor and more than reliably penetrate it. I could still get screwed by a bad results roll, but I'm still having a great chance of just wiping something off the board right away. Next, my opponent will for sure have to deal with the Dreadnought. However, the Dread will be in Melta range or melee range of Monstrous creatures that have nothing better to do than destroy it.

 

The 3 Attack Bikes would have to turbo-boost for 3+ Cover saves on turn 1 and hope to survive till turn 2 to shoot. However, again with the rerolls to hit, I can afford to lose 2 bikes and have 1 bike reliably able to penetrate a vehicle. The attack bike most likely will be going against side armor and maybe even front armor. Also, the attack bikes 3+ invuln save can be both amazing if you roll well, but also really bad if you fail right away and get instakilled. In theory, the Attack Bikes should be taking away ML and Lascannon shots away from your Vindicator/Land Raider.

 

Which unit would you recommend taking? I see a lot of Attack Bike vs. Speeder threads, but none of Attack Bike vs. Dreadnought!

 

*FYI Dreadnought is regular ole Dreadnought and not Venerable or Ironclad.

[DarkGuard]

Go for the Dreadnought, you've got two fast melta delivery platforms already, plus the Tactical squads, so you're sorted for melta in the bulk of your force. A Dread gives you another dimension of melta delivery, letting you hit something before it's even had a chance to do anything, and it means that your opponent will have to deal with a Dreadnought in their backline as well.

[hoya4life3381]

I think I will take the Drop Dread!

 

Second question:

 

I can save 10 pts by dropping the 2 meltaguns in my tac squads down to flamers and changing the combi-flamer to combi-melta. I'd basically have the same weapons as I do know, but the melta is one-time now instead of flamer. Or I could take combi-flamer to pair with regular flamer.

 

That 10 pts would change the 2 Landspeeders to 3 Attack Bikes. I'd get an extra Multimelta, extra body, but lose Heavy Flamers. The Attack Bikes would be much more aggresive rather than the LS which are more for reserve role.

 

Basically -2 HF, +1 MM, and swap of MG to combi-melta and combi-flamer to regular Flamer. Which setup would be better?

[DarkGuard]

Keep the MM/HF Speeders over the attack bikes, more mobile, more easily manageable footprint (if your running the ABs in squadron), and more deployment options, plus the fact that you have a heavy flamer instead of boltguns.

 

As for the Tactical squads, I'm a fan of matching the combi to the special for focus and having the heavy make them versatile. Vulkan would be the one time I'd be likely to revise that opinion, as free TL-MMs are amazing. I'd still match the combi and the special though, so it depends on your area. Lots of mech? Stick with meltas. More hyrbid/foot armies? Flamers may be better, especially as you have melta elsewhere and the Termies for the big stuff. I personally prefer flamers, used correctly, such as tank shocking with Rhinos to bunch up troops, two TL-flamers can tear apart any squad short of Terminators.

[MagicMan]

Ive found that you often won't have a chance to use a flamer more than once, though. If i had to choose whether to make the melta or the flamer one shot, i'd make it the flamer.

 

 

That said, i'd rather have a flamer/Combi-flamer than mix and match the squads role. Thats just me though.

 

I love the smell of Promethium in the morning. It smells like... Victory.

[hoya4life3381]

I've decided that I'm going to be combat squading my two tactical squads when the opportunity arises to get some more long-range firepower out of the missle launchers. I'm going to drop the Vindicator and take the Rifleman dread so that I have a small firebase composed of the 2 combat squads with Missle Launchers and the Dread with 2 Twin-Autocannons. That's 6 pretty accurate shots (should average 5 hits) of transport-opening fire from range that should help cover my advance. I'm still not sold on the Vindicator since any glance will make it useless and then an opponent will go right back to the LRR anyways.

 

Since I'm combat-squading, I'm going to go back to the flamer/combi-flamer combo for the squads in Rhinos Since my 5 man aggresive squad will have 3 bolters only, I need to pack the flamers to make them truly an anti-infantry force. Even if the combat squad is only good against hordes, it wouldn't be any better shooting against marines because bolters just don't do anything. Might as well tailor it against something it can shine at. I decided to combat squad because adding 5 more bolter shots wasn't as good as having a long-range heavy weapon in an army that could use it.

 

Vulkan He’Stan – 190

5 Assault Terminators w/Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - 200

Land Raider Redeemer + Multimelta + Extra Armor – 265

 

"Rifleman" Dreadnought w/2 TL-Autocannons - 125

 

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad

-Flamer

-Combi-Flamer

-Rhino

 

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad

- Missle Launcher

 

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad

-Flamer

-Combi-Flamer

-Rhino

 

5 Tactical Marines - Combat Squad

- Missle Launcher

 

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

Landspeeder w/MultiMelta and Heavy Flamer - 70

 

Total: 1350

 

With this new army list, should I go with Attack Bikes or DropPod Dread w/MM and HF? I'm thinking I go with the Attack Bikes because I now have more stuff in the open with a firebase of Rifleman and 2 Tac Combat Squads. Since my firebase is going to be targetting transports, I'm also going to be dedicating the Attack Bikes to try to kill transports as well.

 

The Drop Dread would go for stuff like a Leman Russ, but getting rid of mech transports quickly seems to be a higher targeting priority for me. But then again, having a dreadnought in the back (Drop Dread) and a Dread in the front (Rifleman Dread) would mean a better split of fire.

 

What would you suggest now with the army change?

[DarkGuard]

Missile launchers on Tactical squads in a Vulkan army, interesting. One of the biggest weaknesses of a Vulkan army is the fact that most believe you have to pack in all manner of flamer and melta weaponry in order to justify his choice. This works of course, but creates a one dimensional army in terms of range, and one that if you can knock out its transports and fast melta can do little to threaten. So missile launchers in a combat squadded Tactical squad may work, as it gives you the range dimension, as does the Rifleman Dread.

 

As for the attack bikes vs Drop Dread, I'd say either can work in this instance, the attack bikes give you more melta, the Dread lets you hit things first turn, though as you have MLs and the Rifleman now you probably don't need it that much, while the MM/HF Speeders can act somewhat like the Drop Dread with normal Deep Strike.

 

On a side note, if you're definitely combat squadding you may want to consider Razorbacks if you can find the points. That being said keeping the Rhinos means you can still combat squad in KP games while it also gives you the top hatch for those TL-flamers.

[hoya4life3381]

Definitely going to keep the Rhinos for the extra versatility. If I wasn't taking the Rifleman Dread, I'd consider doing the Razorbacks with the Missle Launchers. However, the goal of my shooting is to kill transports or keep vehicles from shooting and I think the Autocannons are better in that role. For now, I love the Rhinos with combat squads for top hatch Flamer action.

 

I'm kind of leaning toward the Drop Dread since I will then have a Dread in the back of my opponent's army and one in the front shooting Transports. Again, just because I added 10 marines (2 combat squads with Missles) shooting doesn't mean my opponent will target the attack bikes less. If I go for the two Dreads, I still am presenting all armor at that point except for said tac squads.

[DarkGuard]

I never said that two missile launcher combat squads will result in the attack bikes targetted less, of course it won't. They do different things and are unlikely to take firepower away from the other. My point is that the missile launcher combat squads and the Rifleman Dreads allow you to knock out transports from the first turn, something your first list couldn't do without the Drop Dread. With those units in the list you're capable of doing that, which makes the inclusion of attack bikes more viable, especially as you've taken out melta weaponry in order to do so, and the attack bikes give you more melta weapons. However, you already have fast melta and the MLs and Rifleman can't knock out big tanks, neither are they a pure disruptive threat to your opponent's forces and so the Drop Dread can be equally as useful, it depends on what you'd prefer in your army.

[hoya4life3381]

Do you think the Rhinos are still preferable over Razorbacks? With the Rhinos, I can keep my small 5 man "special" squad (with 2 flamer/combi-flamer) inside and shoot out of the hatch. The heavy squad (Missle Launcher) can just hang back. Also, in games of Kill Points, I can chose not to Combat Squad and would swap the missle out for MM and go back to bunker strategy. However, taking a Rhino for 5 men seems kind of a waste though even if it's with dual-flamers.

 

The Razorbacks have some firepower, but my 5 man special squad has to get out to flame. I mean Rhinos are obviously still vulnerable, but at least it's some sort of protection vs. Razorback where I get my men out anyways. Razors still cost slightly more and I'm not sure what I should drop.

[DarkGuard]

If you feel you need some more firepower than Razorbacks are a good choice, the TL-heavy bolter isn't much but it can add some damage, especially if you're leaving half the squad behind. However, with 5 man squads most of your damage is coming from the flamers, so staying in a Rhino and firing out the top hatch won't make much of a difference to damage dealt. Therefore, for cheapness, protection, and flexibility for not needing to combat squad, Rhinos are still the best way to go IMO.

 

Razorbacks work best with Tactical squads which are either always combat squadding or can function in the backfield without combat squadding. For example, my recent backfield unit has been a 10 man Tactical squad with combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon and a las/plas Razorback. Sits on objectives and provides fire support. Thanks to the range of its guns it's fine if I don't combat squad it for KP and 2 objective games, for 3+ objective games however they can combat squad. Basically, if you're taking a Razorback for a Tactical squad I believe the second option to be the best reason to take it, as if you rely on combat squadding units then you're handing out lots of extra, fragile KPs in KP missions, or your hampering your force's combat effectiveness.

[hoya4life3381]

So basically combat squading and Razorbacks are mostly for hanging back which isn't Salamander playstyle at all. Salamander-y would be to have all 10 men in a Rhino popping out of a Rhino rapid-firing. However, my "special squad" contribues the most to kills and the additional 4 marines rapid firing (1 guy has heavy weapon) adds hardly anything against marines and maybe overkill against hordes (dual flamers should kill 7-8 grunts already).

 

I therefore came to the conclussion that combat squads with Missle Launchers would be better than caddying a MM around that can't move and shoot. However, that leaves me in a weird Salamander bind with 5 marines in Rhino and 5 marines sitting back with Missle Launcher rather than the more standard Razorback pattern that you have.

 

Overall, do you like the combat squading with Missles and Rifleman forming a mini-fire base that tries to target enemy transports? Seems to be more versatile than a Vindicator who also lumbers forward hoping for no immobilizations, weapon destroys, or even no shooting.