Goreshed Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Chaos corrupts. Chaos is chaos. So which being do you think had the "best" fall from grace? Which was the juiciest? The one that hurt the most? The one that meant the most? The one that ripped the heart out of a friend/comrade/lover the most? While Horus falling to the thrall of Chaos and dueling his father could be said to be the biggest there were countless others. Black Library has given us quite a few of them. So which one is your favorite? Personally after reading Fulgrim I would give mine to that Primarch going to chaos but what about those Imperial commanders, just regular humans? Primarchs are super beings and I would say Fulgrim going to chaos, while a delicious read was something...a bit higher on the totem pole. The conflict between the two Moderati aboard the titan Dies Ires was great and probably one of my favorites. Needless to say if/when they come out with a HH book about the Iron Warriors I will no doubt be swayed to the fall of Perturabo. But what about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Chaos corrupts. Chaos is chaos. So which being do you think had the "best" fall from grace? Which was the juiciest? The one that hurt the most? The one that meant the most? The one that ripped the heart out of a friend/comrade/lover the most? Eisenhorn. And it wasn't a sudden realisation either. It slowly dawned on me over the course of the books that he was damned. To go from what he was in the beginning to what he was at the end was gradual, painful and not to mention eventful. There is also, of course, the fact that Eisenhorn feared becoming this, feared becoming just like Inquisitor Quixos and, ultimately, had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The Riverine battalions. They were perhaps the most humanitarian of the Imperial forces but they fell the farthest in what they were forced to do to complete their objectives and then when the very Imperium they fought for turned on them just because they wanted to protect the Imperial servants among the natives rather than just slaughter them to get money for the Ecclesiarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I liked the fall of the Word Bearers in The First Heretic. The way they railed against it but still ended up corrupted. That bit where the Gal Vorbak approach Aquillon while turned into slavering daemonic beasts gets me every time. He listens to their justifications, then simply declares to Argel Tal: “Brother, you have been most blackly deceived.” It really hits me hard every time I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The Riverine battalions. They were perhaps the most humanitarian of the Imperial forces but they fell the farthest in what they were forced to do to complete their objectives and then when the very Imperium they fought for turned on them just because they wanted to protect the Imperial servants among the natives rather than just slaughter them to get money for the Ecclesiarchy. I'm not familiar of the Riverine battalions, except that a quick use of google reveals it was/is a US military unit... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The Riverine battalions. They were perhaps the most humanitarian of the Imperial forces but they fell the farthest in what they were forced to do to complete their objectives and then when the very Imperium they fought for turned on them just because they wanted to protect the Imperial servants among the natives rather than just slaughter them to get money for the Ecclesiarchy. I'm not familiar of the Riverine battalions, except that a quick use of google reveals it was/is a US military unit... :) Flesh and Iron by Henry Zou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Chaos corrupts. Chaos is chaos. So which being do you think had the "best" fall from grace? Which was the juiciest? The one that hurt the most? The one that meant the most? The one that ripped the heart out of a friend/comrade/lover the most? Eisenhorn. And it wasn't a sudden realisation either. It slowly dawned on me over the course of the books that he was damned. To go from what he was in the beginning to what he was at the end was gradual, painful and not to mention eventful. There is also, of course, the fact that Eisenhorn feared becoming this, feared becoming just like Inquisitor Quixos and, ultimately, had to. Don't know if Eisenhor really counts as "fallen" though; he's turned Radical certainly, but he's still very much a loyal servant of the Imperium. Personally, I think you need more than just being a tainted to count as out-and-out fallen. That said, I have to agree with Kodanshi about the Word Bearers being the best fall that we've seen so far; their search for truth slowly leading to damnation. I liked the Thousand Sons as well, mostly because the author really nailed the Sons' arrogant certainty that they knew what they were doing messing around with the Warp, right up until the moment Magnus realized that Tzeentch had been playing him since the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Flesh and Iron by Henry Zou. Aha. I have not read that. Apologies for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Aha. I have not read that. Apologies for the confusion. It's okay. From what I understand the Bastion Wars series isn't exactly the most popular series until the Blood Gorgons novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Fulgrim was hard, but what about Magnus? He thinks he's doing the right thing right up until he's standing in front of the Emperor and sees what he's broken and the look of disappointment on his father's face, then feels so bad about it he lets the Wolves onto Prospero and simply listens to them killing his own children along with the entire society he built and cherished, not even breaking all the way until the frantic pleas of his favorite sons while they were being slaughtered finally pushed him over the edge. And we don't even know yet exactly what he said to his brother Leman Russ. For my money that's the hardest fall yet, hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodcrusade Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I find both the Soul Drinkers and Huron's backstories extremely good for two completely different reasons of being branded Traitor. And since he was already mentioned, definitely tip my hat to Quixos, absolutely loved his entry in the Daemonhunters Codex and still wish he had been an option to bring for your HQ, making Daemonhosts Troops or scoring or something. Love him being loyal but the extremely unorthodox methods he used made other Inquisitors brand him traitor and it took, what was it? Six other Inquisitors to bring him down? Freakin Inquisitor McBadass over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Eisenhorn is an interesting choice. I can see the rationale but like Chengar, I feel he's more radical than truly corrupted but where exactly does one draw the line? The Henry Zou series is underrated I think, if for no other reason than it gives a good alternative view of Chaos and how someone could ever fall. But for me, I've always liked the fall of the Dies Irae because it seemed to encapsulate the entire heresy, brother turning against brother, friend against friend. Being forced to choose a side and kill those that once served along side you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 While Magnus falling is great to me it is out of arrogance to his own self that brought it about. I doubt that chaos had to really push him that hard, his own mind did it to himself. While the events that surrounded that failure was epic its still...I'm not quite sure how to put it. But what about Khârn? Though there have been hints and such of the World Eaters through the various books the most striking one to me seems to be him. First we see him in Tales of the Heresy trying to understand his new Primarch and not get squished. Then in Age of Darkness we see him offered a way to redeption, to stop the voices/pain/whatever it is in his head but he denies it for some reason we never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I think, with the third promised series of Dan Abnetts inquisition books we'll find out whether or not Eisenhorn has truly fallen or is merely a radical. But for some members of the Inquisition the difference is merely semantics. We'll have to wait and see. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I used to like Fulgrim and the EC fall a lot, as well as the EC as a faction, but then Graham "Uriel Ventris" McNiell decided to rewrite it from an actual fall into "Dorian Gray finds and evil sword". Now I'd say it would be the Iron Warriors. They did the job nobody else wanted to, they toiled and toiled with no recognition, and they got sick of it. They end up essentially becoming the Tyler Durden of 40k, they just snap, decide enough is enough and start trying to topple everything around themselves. And they probably make soap with little iron skulls on the bars. Yeah, they're pretty awesome. Also there is the fact that the Iron Warriors essentially perceive the entire universe as having betrayed them, they are utterly jaded and distrusting and (at least in 3rd edition era fluff) were pretty much the only legion that was outwardly leery of alliance with Abaddon and basically paid Honest Abe off with geneseed to keep him from making too big a fuss over them telling him to get lost during his whole Crusade thingy. Then they helped a bit, but only under the stipulation of being given Kasr Partox all to themselves after it was conquered by the Black Legion because they really can't give a hrud's rear end over Abe's little crusade and want tangible payment. I like 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I'll have to reread First Heretic as I don't remember the part between Aquilon and the Gal Vorbak as that dramatic but it has been awhile. Lorgar's fall I think is pretty awesome on it's own though. Khârn would be a very interesting fall as well. I think we need a real World Eater HH novel first though. Eisenhorn's fall to radicalism is just awesome. He defeated Inquisitor badass and then ironically ended up becoming much like him in the end. Quixos though was amazing, it'd be really cool to see a novel on him too. My favorite though is the Riverine. They embody the real reason behind going traitor and becoming chaos; freedom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I used to like Fulgrim and the EC fall a lot, as well as the EC as a faction, but then Graham "Uriel Ventris" McNiell decided to rewrite it from an actual fall into "Dorian Gray finds and evil sword". Now I'd say it would be the Iron Warriors. They did the job nobody else wanted to, they toiled and toiled with no recognition, and they got sick of it. They end up essentially becoming the Tyler Durden of 40k, they just snap, decide enough is enough and start trying to topple everything around themselves. And they probably make soap with little iron skulls on the bars. Yeah, they're pretty awesome. Also there is the fact that the Iron Warriors essentially perceive the entire universe as having betrayed them, they are utterly jaded and distrusting and (at least in 3rd edition era fluff) were pretty much the only legion that was outwardly leery of alliance with Abaddon and basically paid Honest Abe off with geneseed to keep him from making too big a fuss over them telling him to get lost during his whole Crusade thingy. Then they helped a bit, but only under the stipulation of being given Kasr Partox all to themselves after it was conquered by the Black Legion because they really can't give a hrud's rear end over Abe's little crusade and want tangible payment. I like 'em. That sounds pretty fantastic. Incidentally, what was the pre–Graham McNeill Fulgrim/E’sC story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 And since he was already mentioned, definitely tip my hat to Quixos, absolutely loved his entry in the Daemonhunters Codex and still wish he had been an option to bring for your HQ, making Daemonhosts Troops or scoring or something. Love him being loyal but the extremely unorthodox methods he used made other Inquisitors brand him traitor and it took, what was it? Six other Inquisitors to bring him down? Freakin Inquisitor McBadass over here. It might be because of him, that present-day Malleus Inquisitor can take things like hellrifles and daemonblades. Ironically- there is an Inquisitor in the present day codex that can take daemonhosts (as part of henchmen squads) as troops rather than elites- Coteaz. Maybe a refluffed Coteaz could be played as Quixos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The original EC story was that Horus and Fulgrim were good friends so when Fulgrim hears that Horus is advocating rebellion he travels to meet him and Horus greets him and his officers in a really friendly manner and basically they have kind of an Astartes frat party during which Horus roofies Fulgrim and while under the influence Fulgrim (and his officers) transcend all mortal ideas of pleasure etc and becomes addicted to it. It was kind of an implicit beat/Stockholm Syndrome allegory that was just disturbing enough for Slaanesh. They then carry these practices to the Legion, corrupting it very quickly because chain of command was always very strictly obeyed and since the officers began mandating such debaucheries the entire legion was soon addicted to sensation. Now it's an evil sword. Take your pick. Oh! And Fulgrim isn't even Fulgrim anymore, it's just a daemon, so the whole "fall" issue is completely moot, it might as well be Marneus Calgar stuck in there it would make no difference, the daemon from the sword has full control. But at least the picture looks nice now, y'know, just like in that Oscar Wilde story! Hey, people thought he was cool, so obviously Graham is cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I'd agree with Logar and the world bearers fall being the best, even if he was an excuse of a Primarch. I agree on the fulgrim's being changed to a copy and paste of dorian grey with a daemon sword :) The old story was so much better. Magnus is another one where he seems to across as not that good a primarch, if only because he actually decides that all of Prospero and his legion should pay for his arrogance, if he really wanted to atone for what happened it would have been best for him to tell the Thousand sons what was happening and then actually surrender/give himself up to the wolves, possibly taking a ship and handing himself over to them before they reached Fenris so they could take him to Terra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 ^ On the plus side, Ahriman now comes across really well in A Thousand Sons… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 True, It did make me want to use him just for the character, I am hoping we see more books from his perspective, preferably one before and including the rubric, and one some time after his banishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 True, It did make me want to use him just for the character, I am hoping we see more books from his perspective, preferably one before and including the rubric, and one some time after his banishment. Its not from his perspective, but he does make an appearance in Rob Sanders' Atlas Infernal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 ^ Would you recommend that book then? I’ve read it sounds like a sort of Doctor Who character, which intrigued me, but I’ve read negative press about it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 ^ Would you recommend that book then? I’ve read it sounds like a sort of Doctor Who character, which intrigued me, but I’ve read negative press about it too. It wasn't Eisenhorn good and there were a few moments that felt somewhat silly but overall I'd say its worth the read. I can't comment on the Doctor Who connection as I've seen a grand total of 0 episodes :lol: but it has what I'd call a semi-Sherlock Holmes kind of feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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