Identity Question about Malcador & Ollanius Pius (spoilers?)

[Midwest]

Possible spoilers in this thread, but I think the question itself is safe.

 

I've seen scattered in multiple threads references to some apparent speculation that Malcador is Narthan Dume and that Loken is set to be the actual Ollanius Pius of IG myth. I seem to have missed out on these memos and was kinda curious if someone could spell out the basics of either speculation.

 

Thanks!

 

PS: Is it Narthan Dume, Narthan Durme, or Nathaniel Dume/Durme? The HH books seem to keep switching from Dume to Durme. Is that meant to be intentional?

[Conn Eremon]

Possible spoilers in this thread, but I think the question itself is safe.

 

I've seen scattered in multiple threads references to some apparent speculation that Malcador is Narthan Dume and that Loken is set to be the actual Ollanius Pius of IG myth. I seem to have missed out on these memos and was kinda curious if someone could spell out the basics of either speculation.

 

Thanks!

 

PS: Is it Narthan Dume, Narthan Durme, or Nathaniel Dume/Durme? The HH books seem to keep switching from Dume to Durme. Is that meant to be intentional?

 

I thought Ollanius Pius was a Custode now? Not sure where it references Loken as Pius, but I might have missed it.

 

Haven't read Outcast Dead yet, so I can't answer the other question.

[Jim Shady]

From WH40K Wiki;

 

Narthan Dume

[Sons of Horus]

Loken as Pius would be a terrible idea imo. As for the other question, I don't think Malcador and Dume are the same person.

[Perrin]

I hope Pius is retconned back to being a Guardsman, theres just something about an ordinary human without all the implants and extra organs that marines and custodes have, saving the Emperor and making him see that he has to destroy Horus.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I hope Pius is retconned back to being a Guardsman, theres just something about an ordinary human without all the implants and extra organs that marines and custodes have, saving the Emperor and making him see that he has to destroy Horus.

 

Yeah, the problem with that is that with the storyline's development, it seems odd that the death of one schmuck would actually bring the Emperor to finally accept that Horus was well and truly lost to the Emperor and must be destroyed.

At that point the Heresy, untold numbers of loyalist troops have been killed, the Palace, symbol of the Emperor's glorious dream for humanity, is being destroyed and besieged, and Sanguinius himself is dead at the hands of Horus.

One more mere mortal dead seems unlikely to incite the Emperor to slay his right hand man and favored son, particularly given the Emperor's willingness to sacrifice damn near everything to obtain mankind's best possible future.

The whole "and even a regular human Guarsdmen matters!" message of heroic sacrifice seems a bit wan and pale next to all the other grimdark death and sacrifice.

[Olis]

I hope Pius is retconned back to being a Guardsman, theres just something about an ordinary human without all the implants and extra organs that marines and custodes have, saving the Emperor and making him see that he has to destroy Horus.

 

He's in Blood of Martyrs by FFG. There's a section describing Pius and the fluctuating story (amongst the Imperial populace) of the last battle between Horus and the Emperor. Basically he's a patron saint of the Imperial Guard.

[Doghouse]

Yeah, the problem with that is that with the storyline's development, it seems odd that the death of one schmuck would actually bring the Emperor to finally accept that Horus was well and truly lost to the Emperor and must be destroyed.

At that point the Heresy, untold numbers of loyalist troops have been killed, the Palace, symbol of the Emperor's glorious dream for humanity, is being destroyed and besieged, and Sanguinius himself is dead at the hands of Horus.

One more mere mortal dead seems unlikely to incite the Emperor to slay his right hand man and favored son, particularly given the Emperor's willingness to sacrifice damn near everything to obtain mankind's best possible future.

The whole "and even a regular human Guarsdmen matters!" message of heroic sacrifice seems a bit wan and pale next to all the other grimdark death and sacrifice.

 

Funnily enough you just summed up exactly the reason for me that the guardsman's death was so important, if anything it brings the Emperor back down to earth and gives him some much needed perspective. 40k wars are massive ugly affairs where the soldiers are just faceless numbers, this makes it more personal with a single soldier being mercilessly murdered by Horus and witnessed first hand by the Emperor showing what a monster his son has become.

[Son of Rawl]

I can see it being Little Horus that is the one who charges into the room, just a feeling about that charecter

[MadDoc]

The biggest problem with Ollanius Pius being the one martyred is, how exactly did a loyal guardsmen actually get on board the Vengeful Spirit?

 

The established events have the Emperor teleport onboard with two Primarchs (Dorn and Sanguinius), and a bodyguard of Custodians only. I don't see GW/BL changing that, and as such, I don't see Pius being the sacrificial lamb that Horus obliterates, the current events have it as a long serving Custodian (which I personally suspect will be Tauromachian or one of the other already named Custodes).

[Techmarine Data007]

It's already been said, but I feel a need to add my own thoughts to it. Most people will tell you that to do is different from being told something. I'm not sure, but memory tells me that the Emperor didn't see Horus kill Sanguinius, and I'm not disputing that. If Horus had done so in front of the Emperor, then Sanguinius would be our Pius, rather than whomever it turns out to be.

[Midwest]

It's already been said, but I feel a need to add my own thoughts to it. Most people will tell you that to do is different from being told something. I'm not sure, but memory tells me that the Emperor didn't see Horus kill Sanguinius, and I'm not disputing that. If Horus had done so in front of the Emperor, then Sanguinius would be our Pius, rather than whomever it turns out to be.

Dunno if it's been changed, but according to accounts like this from WD 161 you are correct - the Emperor and Primarchs were separated during the teleport and Sanguinius was already dead by the time the Emperor reached Horus:

 

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

 

In the end the Emperor stands alone. Then and only then is he allowed to enter the presence of Horus.

 

The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere.

 

Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side."

[Falconis]

oken is set to be the actual Ollanius Pius of IG myth.

 

Loken is set to start the Grey Knights along with Garro, Iacton Qruze et al.

[Doghouse]

It used to be that the Emperor teleported on board with a bunch of marines as well as Dorn and Sanguinius but they all get separated. When the Emperor is pretty uch beaten a lone terminator charges in storm bolter blazing before being turned to ash in his armour by Horus. Not sure if it was a custode though as they weren't such a prominent part of the heresy back then, think it was the William King story of the last battle between Horus and the Emperor.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I love the thought that it was a young mortal man (I believe he was barely 18 in some of older fluff?) laying down his life in order to save the Imperium. No fancy genetics, no demi god inherant powers, just one young man on the precipice of an imortal battle. A young guardsman who still had his whole life left to live torn down in cold blood, the thought of his broken body torn down by his own son, staring the dead guardsman in the face realising what a terrible evil had been unleashed. Reminding him that as the Emperor he lives not just to rule man but also to serve and protect.

 

This vision of the very heart of what the Imperium sought to protect destroyed lent him the strength to destroy the grand evil hiding behind a loved ones face. An immortal god like deity being driven to do the right thing, by a young man Ollanius Pius.

[Son of Rawl]

It used to be that the Emperor teleported on board with a bunch of marines as well as Dorn and Sanguinius but they all get separated. When the Emperor is pretty uch beaten a lone terminator charges in storm bolter blazing before being turned to ash in his armour by Horus. Not sure if it was a custode though as they weren't such a prominent part of the heresy back then, think it was the William King story of the last battle between Horus and the Emperor.

 

Thats how I always remember, wasn't this act the reason why each suit now incorporates a sliver of the Emperor's armour in recognition of the sacrifice

[Iron Lord]

I hope Pius is retconned back to being a Guardsman, theres just something about an ordinary human without all the implants and extra organs that marines and custodes have, saving the Emperor and making him see that he has to destroy Horus.

 

He's in Blood of Martyrs by FFG. There's a section describing Pius and the fluctuating story (amongst the Imperial populace) of the last battle between Horus and the Emperor. Basically he's a patron saint of the Imperial Guard.

 

It doesn't explicitly say that the Pius legend has him die vs Horus.

 

"Legend states that Ollanius, a lowly soldier in the armies of the Emperor, found himself fighting near or alongside the Emperor himself, somehow intervened to protect the Emperor from a deadly blow delivered by a vile traitor, and was killed doing so."

 

Plenty of room for the "vile traitor" to be someone other than Horus- especially since the Adeptus Astartes have their own legend where Dorn is the one responsible, but doesn't die.

[calgar101]

In the Bill King version the Emperor teleports every one in the vicinity, hence why some Guard are taken aboard the Vengeful Spirit. However I have always found it a bit stupid that Ollanus Pious or the Marine or Custode's sacrifice spurred the Emperor on. I understand the idea of noble sacrifice etc but really? One Guardsmen? One of the Emperors most favoured sons -Sanguinius- is dead at the Arch-Betrayers feet, 3 legions were virtually wiped out by his plans at Istvaan and another Primarch had died there. The Emperors palace is besieged by chaos and the legions. I really hope this is changed because well it makes the Emperor look like a bigger tool than he already sort of is.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Wait, I'm confused.

The story as I remember it has the Emperor, Dorn, Sanguinius, and IF and BA terminators teleporting aboard. Nobody else came with the emperor because everybody knows (knew?) that only those in terminator armor can teleport. Sanguinius finds Horus first, and Horus takes out Sanguinius. Then the Emperor comes in and starts fighting. Horus has almost killed the Emperor because the Emperor has been holding back, unable to kill his son. Then a lone BA terminator walked in on them. Horus quickly kills the terminator, but this had distracted Horus for an instant. That gave the Emperor a momentary respite in the battle at which time he realized that he had to go all out and kill Horus. In this version, it wasn't the BA terminator's sacrifice that finally convinced the Emperor of what needed to be done. The Emperor was already reaching that point through his battle with Horus, but it was during the distraction of the terminator that the Emperor came to the full realization that Horus was too far gone with Chaos. And as the Emperor killed Horus, Horus felt sorrow and regretted turning against his father.

 

I'm pretty sure what I remember is between 95-99% correct. But could someone give a brief summary of the updated version of the story? From what I can gather in this thread, it sounds like it used to be better.

[Brother Galfridus]

Surely the sacrifice of an ordinary human mean more to the Big E?

 

Take the lead of some of the stuff recently brought up about Thunder Warriors and the potential of casting aside the Primarchs and legions when there job is done. And why not. They are creations to ensure humanity's survival. In order to protect humanity they give up theirs. For all the rhetoric about favoured sons etc the Emperors only mission is the survival of the human race. The primarchs and legions are not human. They are more and at the same time less. They are not the fragile unstable pre-psychic creatures that mankind is. They also do not have the limitless potential that mankind has. They exist purely to make the galaxy a safer place for the human race by destroying everything else.

 

If it is a guardsman here you have the very thing the Big E is trying to protect symbolised in one meaningless person. Sure he's a soldier on a ship full of daemons, demi-gods and genetically altered killing machines but unlike all of them his destiny is not determined. Whereas a space marine is nothing but a warrior a guardsman could have been a farmer or a poet. Importantly he can stop being a warrior and then become a farmer or poet where a marine or primarch cannot. If everyone is a marine there is no humanity. If there are no marines there is still humanity.

 

And Horus casually smashing said guardsmen with a flick of the wrist shows Horus as the destroyer of humanity, so the antithesis, to the absolute degree, of everything the Emperor does/is/stands for.

[Cactus]

Wait, I'm confused.

The story as I remember it has the Emperor, Dorn, Sanguinius, and IF and BA terminators teleporting aboard. Nobody else came with the emperor because everybody knows (knew?) that only those in terminator armor can teleport. Sanguinius finds Horus first, and Horus takes out Sanguinius. Then the Emperor comes in and starts fighting. Horus has almost killed the Emperor because the Emperor has been holding back, unable to kill his son. Then a lone BA terminator walked in on them. Horus quickly kills the terminator, but this had distracted Horus for an instant. That gave the Emperor a momentary respite in the battle at which time he realized that he had to go all out and kill Horus. In this version, it wasn't the BA terminator's sacrifice that finally convinced the Emperor of what needed to be done. The Emperor was already reaching that point through his battle with Horus, but it was during the distraction of the terminator that the Emperor came to the full realization that Horus was too far gone with Chaos. And as the Emperor killed Horus, Horus felt sorrow and regretted turning against his father.

 

I'm pretty sure what I remember is between 95-99% correct. But could someone give a brief summary of the updated version of the story? From what I can gather in this thread, it sounds like it used to be better.

 

That's the way I remember it too, and I have the copy of White Dwarf to back it up. I hadn't even heard of Oleaginous Puce until today.

 

I thought it was an Imperial Fist terminator though - I'm sure it was yellow in Mike Mcvey's diorama.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

in collected visions it is an unnamed custodes, who is said to have served the emperor for two centuries or more.

 

it's not just his death, but the callous manner in which horus dispatches him that finally hardens the emperor's heart.

[Wrath of Terra]

As I understand it (and the version I prefer - Bill King's I think) when the shields came down the Emperor sensed it and not knowing how long they'd be down for ordered an immediate teleport up to it involving everyone in his immediate area - himself, primarchs, marines, custodes and guardsmen.

 

They were scattered in the teleport and the Emperor didn't see Horus kill Sanguinius. Horus strangled him if I recall.

 

When the Emperor shows up he holds back in the fight, still hoping something of the original Horus is left that he can reach and save. Horus kicks the crap out of him as a result.

 

As Horus is standing over a broken and half dead Emperor he indulges in a little gloating, like all good supervillains.

 

In walks our hero Ollanius. Seeing his Emperor broken (if Ollanius is retconned back in he'll probably be a believer in the Emperor as a god I would imagine) Ollanius, mere mortal Ollanius, charged a veritable god empowered with the strength of all four Chaos gods.

 

Now as I remember Horus didn't even bother to kill Ollanius with a weapon, he killed him with some Chaos power and basically consumed his soul.

 

When the Emperor saw this he realised that there was nothing left of the real Horus and finally realised he had to kill Horus - there was nothing left to save.

 

That's the version I love best and that's the one I'll always prefer when they no doubt do write it and it's some boring, faceless, personality-less, drone-like Custode <_<

[Son of Rawl]

The lone human charging in does sound really cool but think of a more thematic approach. The Emperor holds back hoping that Horus can be redeemed and at the crucial moment when Horus has ripped one of his arms out of his sockets, crushed nearly all his internal organs, burnt half of his face off which includes losing an eye, and then breaking his back, does an almost replica of Horus himself charge into the room.

 

Little Horus Aximand with tears in his eyes after fighting so hard to convince himself that Horus is rightous and can't be wrong, finally sees the evil his father has become and charges, Horus coldy kills a favoured son that not only is him but also a way for the Emperor to see quite literally that the evil in Horus has completely obliterated what was good about him. Anyone else seeing this?