Situational questions if template is a literal range

[Squirrelloid]

i think the problem is a confusion in how LOS actually affects shooting.. if you can only see one man in a unit of ten why is it your able to do more than one casualty due to shooting?

simple although you measure LOS to that one model your actually firing at the unit as a whole regardless of whos in LOS or not.

 

with firing template weapons its simply a matter of declaring which unit your firing at, checking (with your own eye) if you can see the unit.. if you can see the unit you then place the template in accordance with the rules (covering as many models as possible) and work out wounds as normal.

 

its not contrived, its not difficult, but people try and make it so by being too literal with RAW..

 

templates dont measure range, the act of placing them is the deterination of whether they can hit models or not, checking LOS determines whether or not hes allowed to fire the template weapon in the first place

 

Just so i'm clear, you believe LoS is the only thing you need to check before placing and resolving the template? So given LoS to the target unit, you believe templates are always placed according to the rules on p29, and always wound models they touch, even if the maximum number of models in the target unit it can touch is 0?

 

(I'm trying to make sure I understand all the interpretations people are presenting)

 

(edit: fwiw, if i interpreted you correctly, i totally agree with you - see the other thread. But we're pretending for the moment that 'template' is a range just like any other and are following the check range rules as a thought experiment in what the rules actually mean given that assumption, since most of the people involved in the discussion insisted 'template' was a range that had to check range like any other).

[Arikel]

i think the problem is a confusion in how LOS actually affects shooting.. if you can only see one man in a unit of ten why is it your able to do more than one casualty due to shooting?

simple although you measure LOS to that one model your actually firing at the unit as a whole regardless of whos in LOS or not.

 

with firing template weapons its simply a matter of declaring which unit your firing at, checking (with your own eye) if you can see the unit.. if you can see the unit you then place the template in accordance with the rules (covering as many models as possible) and work out wounds as normal.

 

its not contrived, its not difficult, but people try and make it so by being too literal with RAW..

 

templates dont measure range, the act of placing them is the deterination of whether they can hit models or not, checking LOS determines whether or not hes allowed to fire the template weapon in the first place

 

I have to object here for one moment, los is a given to fire pretty much any weapon(exceptions are given for certain special rules), but you can have a los to a target that is in range of bolters but not your flamer, if you fire your flamer, it misses the target and therefore hits nothing because it is out of range. The range of a template weapon is the size of the template from the base of the firing model. If the declared target of the template does not fall under the template it misses completely and does not resolve against other targets that happen to be beneath it because it misses automatically as per general shooting rules because it is unable to reach the original target. If the template can only hit the target by covering members of the shooters own unit (or other units under the same player's control, one cannot deliberately target one's own units, friendly fire can only occur from a scattered blast marker, essentially), then it also is considered a "miss" and has no effect. These are basic shooting rules that deal with flamers and other template weapons, and cover both situations rather concisely. You ask for raw and that's what raw says. In other words, you pretty much want to have your flamer guy in the front row;)

 

 

Edit: I believe i may have misread situation one: In this case the flamer fellow has los to part of the unit, but the part of the unit that he can cover with the template is the part that he would not ordinarily have los to? in this case raw would indicate that yes he can still fire, and places the template to cover the most units he can in the targeted unit, whether it is the original model he has los to or not is not strictly mandated by the rules. Apologies for the misunderstanding there.

[Squirrelloid]

i think the problem is a confusion in how LOS actually affects shooting.. if you can only see one man in a unit of ten why is it your able to do more than one casualty due to shooting?

simple although you measure LOS to that one model your actually firing at the unit as a whole regardless of whos in LOS or not.

 

with firing template weapons its simply a matter of declaring which unit your firing at, checking (with your own eye) if you can see the unit.. if you can see the unit you then place the template in accordance with the rules (covering as many models as possible) and work out wounds as normal.

 

its not contrived, its not difficult, but people try and make it so by being too literal with RAW..

 

templates dont measure range, the act of placing them is the deterination of whether they can hit models or not, checking LOS determines whether or not hes allowed to fire the template weapon in the first place

 

I have to object here for one moment, los is a given to fire pretty much any weapon(exceptions are given for certain special rules), but you can have a los to a target that is in range of bolters but not your flamer, if you fire your flamer, it misses the target and therefore hits nothing because it is out of range. The range of a template weapon is the size of the template from the base of the firing model. If the declared target of the template does not fall under the template it misses completely and does not resolve against other targets that happen to be beneath it because it misses automatically as per general shooting rules because it is unable to reach the original target. If the template can only hit the target by covering members of the shooters own unit (or other units under the same player's control, one cannot deliberately target one's own units, friendly fire can only occur from a scattered blast marker, essentially), then it also is considered a "miss" and has no effect. These are basic shooting rules that deal with flamers and other template weapons, and cover both situations rather concisely. You ask for raw and that's what raw says. In other words, you pretty much want to have your flamer guy in the front row;)

 

Look, I've tried to be patient. But there is simply so much here that is 100% made up by you and has no basis in the rules or in some cases even the most generous RAI that I can only recommend you go and actually read the rules.

 

Examples:

"The range of a template weapon is the size of the template from the base of the firing model."

No no no, absolutely not. Range is a linear measure. The template covers an AREA. Checking range is strictly defined in the rules as stated on p17 by measuring between two points. No one could ever reasonably intend for range to be an area, it violates the basic definition of the word, a definition explicitly stated in the rulebook (first sentence p17), so it absolutely fails even RAI. That it fails even the simplest RAW test is unsurprising.

 

If the declared target of the template does not fall under the template it misses completely and does not resolve against other targets that happen to be beneath it because it misses automatically as per general shooting rules because it is unable to reach the original target.

 

The general shooting rules absolutely do not say that. Automatic missing only applies if it is out of range, as measured according to the rules under checking for range. You measure to check range to the *nearest visible model* which means you can measure range straight through models in your own squad because they don't affect visibility. If these rules apply to templates, they apply in exactly the same way they apply to bolters as they are not modified by the template rules.

 

It is perfectly possible for enemy models to be in range of the template and not be able to be touched by it. Its not even that hard to set up scenarios in which its the case.

 

If the template can only hit the target by covering members of the shooters own unit (or other units under the same player's control, one cannot deliberately target one's own units, friendly fire can only occur from a scattered blast marker, essentially), then it also is considered a "miss" and has no effect.

 

Totally made up by you. The rules for placing the template prohibit you from placing it where it touches a friendly model, but they absolutely don't cause misses because you can't place it to touch the target squad without touching a friendly model. The rules for placing the template require you to choose a valid orientation and never let you pick it up without effect. The rules for placing the template never even mention the word miss.

 

 

What you have presented are not the basic shooting rules, they're almost entirely your imagination and have nothing to do with the rules actually in the book. Would you please actually cite rules with quotes and page numbers in the future? You just managed to attempt to describe the shooting rules without getting a single thing right.

[stinkenheim]

Let me see if I understand this part of your argument squirrelloid.

Your saying that once the template weapons is declared to be firing you must fire it, even it the only way to hit the targeted unit is by covering friendly models.

As you are unable to deliberately hit your own models you are allowed to reposition the flamer template to affect any other unit you wish because you cannot 'miss' with the template, nor can you do a backsie and declare that it isn't firing after all.

 

What if my marine is in the centre of the squad with friendly models all around. I don't look at this properly and declare that everyone is firing at unit X.

I measure for the bolters and heavy weapon, 'yay', I'm in range. Now I pick up the template... 'oh no,' says I. 'I can't place it without touching my own models'.

Well the leaves me in a pickle, because according to you:

 

'The rules for placing the template require you to choose a valid orientation and never let you pick it up without effect. The rules for placing the template never even mention the word miss.'

 

So what do I do? I can't place the template legally, there is no valid orientation as every direction involves me touching my own unit, but I also can't pick it up without it affecting someone (don't know where that 'rule' came from), and as it can't miss it means I have to place it somewhere... And this vicious circle will continue until my opponent and I are dead from old age or starvation (assuming I'm allowed to put the template down to go to the loo or get food/drink).

 

Just trying to make sure I understand your interpretation of this.

And please note, while there may be some sarcasm in this post there is no malice or any attempt to insult you.

[brakkar]

It really is very simple and ulcer free. Discuss with your gaming group or LGS and address how these issues will resolve, the group or LGS will determine their local rules and what is accepted. Determining how to interpret it here, as much as I love this site, is meaningless as the forum is not the be all end all for rules either. You can ask for opinions, but you aren't going to change to many people's minds on how they think something works. Case in point would be the Telion/Stealth discussion ages ago, almost everyone disagreed and GW ultimately said yes it confers. Therefore, even if you get a common agreement here, it still may be incorrect.

 

The ultimate authority is one of three, LGS, Group/Opponent, or dice off.

[Quixus]

So what do I do? I can't place the template legally, there is no valid orientation as every direction involves me touching my own unit, but I also can't pick it up without it affecting someone (don't know where that 'rule' came from), and as it can't miss it means I have to place it somewhere... And this vicious circle will continue until my opponent and I are dead from old age or starvation (assuming I'm allowed to put the template down to go to the loo or get food/drink).

The two conditions are covering as many models of the target unit as possible and not touching friendly models. If friendlies are in the way the maximum number of models in the targeted unit will be 0, so you can place the template any way you want as long as it does not touch friendlies. If this is an orientation that covers other hostile models, they will be hit.

[thade]

You can't place a template such that it lands on a friendly unit, period. Bolters aren't template weapons so they don't suffer that issue. Why would you even try to confound the issue with that? I honestly feel like you're waffling because you enjoy it. B)

[Morollan]

So what do I do? I can't place the template legally, there is no valid orientation as every direction involves me touching my own unit, but I also can't pick it up without it affecting someone (don't know where that 'rule' came from), and as it can't miss it means I have to place it somewhere... And this vicious circle will continue until my opponent and I are dead from old age or starvation (assuming I'm allowed to put the template down to go to the loo or get food/drink).

The two conditions are covering as many models of the target unit as possible and not touching friendly models. If friendlies are in the way the maximum number of models in the targeted unit will be 0, so you can place the template any way you want as long as it does not touch friendlies. If this is an orientation that covers other hostile models, they will be hit.

 

I fear you didn't read his post properly. In this scenario there is no way for the template to be placed without touching a friendly model. And, according to Squirrelloid, it's impossible to simply ignore the shot. It has to fire.

[Gentlemanloser]

The example is though, if you *can't* place the template without hitting any friendlies.

 

Like, for exmaple, you've Deep Struck a squad of Terminators and the Heavy Flamer finds himself inside the circle.

 

You can't place the template legally.

 

So if you rule that you have to place the template, and can't chose not to fire it, then you're stuck. The game can't progress. And by RAW you can't even remove your minis from the table, as you can only do so when they are removed as a casualty (or potentially, can't be sure, no book at work, when the last game turn ends. Which it can't as you can't progress from your shooting phase).

 

Edit: Ninja'd! B)

[thade]

And, according to Squirrelloid, it's impossible to simply ignore the shot. It has to fire.

That last part is simply not true; the game isn't so black & white. If you declare the shot then find out that you can't actually place the template correctly, it misses (i.e. the template doesn't go down). It's got to hit something in the declared-target unit or it can't be placed it all.

 

Not to mention that it's perfectly within the rules to simply omit guns from a unit's shooting; i.e. decide you're not firing the flamer this time, even if you can.

[Morollan]

And, according to Squirrelloid, it's impossible to simply ignore the shot. It has to fire.

That last part is simply not true; the game isn't so black & white. If you declare the shot then find out that you can't actually place the template correctly, it misses (i.e. the template doesn't go down). It's got to hit something in the declared-target unit or it can't be placed it all.

 

Not to mention that it's perfectly within the rules to simply omit guns from a unit's shooting; i.e. decide you're not firing the flamer this time, even if you can.

 

I, and most other people, agree. Squirrelloid begs to differ. This example is an attempt to show how ridiculous the whole idea is. But then, we are talking to someone who thinks this:

 

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/SomePsycho/1.jpg

 

is legal, where the Marine player declares he's shooting at the Warriors, and upon finding the Flamer is out of range of the Warriors, turns it around and targets the Genestealers.

 

And the example given did indicate that the player had declared all models were firing before realising that the flamer was in the middle of the squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

And that in the example above, the unit isn't 'splitting it's fire', as they all declared they're firing at the Warriors. Even though the Flamer hits the Genestealers.

[thade]

Yea he can't do that, haha. I think this is the point where I'm supposed to point at the nighthawks quote in my sig.

 

If the only way a thing can happen in this game involves a bending of the rules, then it cannot happen.

[Something Wycked]

upon finding the Flamer is out of range of the Warriors, turns it around and targets the Genestealers.

And argues that it isn't targeting the Genestealers, so it is not violating the principle of only shooting at one target.

[Squirrelloid]

Let me see if I understand this part of your argument squirrelloid.

Your saying that once the template weapons is declared to be firing you must fire it, even it the only way to hit the targeted unit is by covering friendly models.

As you are unable to deliberately hit your own models you are allowed to reposition the flamer template to affect any other unit you wish because you cannot 'miss' with the template, nor can you do a backsie and declare that it isn't firing after all.

 

What if my marine is in the centre of the squad with friendly models all around. I don't look at this properly and declare that everyone is firing at unit X.

I measure for the bolters and heavy weapon, 'yay', I'm in range. Now I pick up the template... 'oh no,' says I. 'I can't place it without touching my own models'.

Well the leaves me in a pickle, because according to you:

 

'The rules for placing the template require you to choose a valid orientation and never let you pick it up without effect. The rules for placing the template never even mention the word miss.'

 

So what do I do? I can't place the template legally, there is no valid orientation as every direction involves me touching my own unit, but I also can't pick it up without it affecting someone (don't know where that 'rule' came from), and as it can't miss it means I have to place it somewhere... And this vicious circle will continue until my opponent and I are dead from old age or starvation (assuming I'm allowed to put the template down to go to the loo or get food/drink).

 

Just trying to make sure I understand your interpretation of this.

And please note, while there may be some sarcasm in this post there is no malice or any attempt to insult you.

 

In the case where there is no orientation which allows the template to be placed without touching a friendly models, the rules break down. Completely. No idea what you do then. The rules say nothing to resolve the issue. But this situation is totally different than any other because you literally can't place the template according to the rules for placing it. If the situation comes up, I'd just agree to move on, declare the weapon had in fact fired without placing the template, and let the game progress. But that solution has *nothing* to do with the rules. It simply chooses a result that follows as many rules *as possible*. So I'll totally admit the rules have problems, and this specific case is one.

 

But in any other case, you are required to place the template such that it touches no friendlies. So long as there is at least one orientation that touches no friendlies, there exists at least one legal orientation and you must choose one and place the template.

 

Nothing requires the template to actually touch the target squad. Nothing. Pretending its a requirement is making stuff up, period. Failing to touch the target squad is not a problem under the rules. The rules cover that. 0 is a mathematically and procedurally valid maximum for 'touch as many models as possible in the target squad'. There's no need to handwaive a solution when you can follow the rules.

 

That last part is simply not true; the game isn't so black & white. If you declare the shot then find out that you can't actually place the template correctly, it misses (i.e. the template doesn't go down). It's got to hit something in the declared-target unit or it can't be placed it all.

 

Bolded is patently false. Unless you'd like to actually provide any quote from the rules that this is true. You're claiming something is part of the rules of the game, surely you can provide an actual rule which makes it true or even plausibly true?

 

Placing the template is not 'hitting' with the template. Placing the template is 'firing' the template. (p27+p29) Literally and explicitly. Templates hit by touching models. (p29) "Misses" for templates are never defined. They don't do it. So that is also made up by you.

 

The only rules for placing the template are given on p29. "Simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models." That is the full and complete rule for placing the template. Being able to touch 0 models is a valid result for 'as many models as possible', and is permitted under the rules. QED, you don't have to touch the target squad if there is no legal orientation which permits it.

 

Things the rules notably don't say:

-You must touch at least one model in the target squad.

-You may remove the template without effect after legally placing it.

 

Claiming either of those is clearly making stuff up. Nothing in the rules for templates even suggests those are true, much less requires them to be done in any circumstance.

 

Not to mention that it's perfectly within the rules to simply omit guns from a unit's shooting; i.e. decide you're not firing the flamer this time, even if you can.

 

Only after checking LoS when declaring which weapons are firing, as per p16. After they are declared to fire they must fire. Any model which can trace LoS to the target can legally declare he is firing with a specific weapon he is holding, regardless of what that weapon is.

 

So while you can decide you aren't firing it, if you did declare it was firing then you must fire it. The rules literally and explicitly require it.

 

Even the intention of the rules is that you fire it. The intention is spelled out in the rules: "...as all the models in the unit fire at the same time." (p16) Ie, you don't get to know anything about range or template positioning when you're deciding to fire because your models wouldn't know until they actually fire their weapons. The clear intention of the rules is you declare firing only knowing you have LoS and not being certain on what the actual effect of that firing is going to be.

 

How much rules text can you choose to ignore, and how many rules can you make up, and still plausibly claim you're following the intention of the rules?

[greatcrusade08]

*Facepalm*

 

i rarely ever see rules issues of this calibre over the tabletop, id probably die of shock if i did, i did however last night get the Ic with JP moving 12" and rejoining the same infantry unit it left in the same turn.. man that was a tough rules issue

[Squirrelloid]

And that in the example above, the unit isn't 'splitting it's fire', as they all declared they're firing at the Warriors. Even though the Flamer hits the Genestealers.

 

Lets say model with flamer is part of squad 1 who has declared as their target squad A. The template touches at most one model from squad A, but also models from squads B and C (also enemy).

 

Are squads B and C suddenly his target?

 

If not, then the genestealers in that example do not become his target just because he hit them. No rule causes a template to take as its target any squad whose models it touches.

 

You might find the result counter-intuitive, but its *exactly* what the rules permit and seem to intend.

 

-------------------

Edit:

I think at this point its pretty obvious that the issue some people have is not with checking or not checking range at all. (Indeed, at least 3 methods or implied methods for checking range for a template weapon have been given in this thread, none of which follows the normal range rules, and thus is wholly made up and clearly not what we're supposed to be doing. The only interpretation of checking range that has been laid out in this thread which actually follows the rules for checking range is mine, as detailed in the first post, explicitly in scenario 2).

 

The problem people have is explicitly with the rules of placing the template. And their issue is that these rules lead to counter-intuitive (to them) results when the most models in the target squad you can touch is zero.

 

Its certainly not counter-intuitive to me.

 

If I offer to give you all the pounds sterling I have in my pocket I would be forced to give you all 0 pounds sterling that are in my pocket. I don't have any. (Anywhere to be precise, I live in the US and possess absolutely no pounds sterling). If you put as many people who had been to mars as possible in a room, the room would still be empty. Finding a solution of zero is not the same as no solution was found.

 

y = x^2 has a solution for y=0.

 

y = x^2 +1 has no solution for y=0.

 

Getting no solution is entirely different than getting a solution of zero.

[thade]

Well, Squirrelloid, you actually came up with your own answer. You are misinterpreting it, however, or so I believe. So I'm going to try and help you see that. Here's the answer:

 

In the case where there is no orientation which allows the template to be placed without touching a friendly models, the rules break down. Completely. No idea what you do then. The rules say nothing to resolve the issue.

More to the point:

 

...the rules break down. Completely. No idea what you do then. The rules say nothing to resolve the issue.

This happens FREQUENTLY with this game; the rules are often dodgy. Some rules are meant to add to rules that came before while others are meant to override them, and these aren't clearly differentiated in all cases; some rules don't seem to be accounted for at all and so we have situations where what should happen is remarkably unclear.

 

When this happens, the solution is virtually ALWAYS to do the thing that is less to your advantage; i.e. less powerful.

 

Can the guy with the flamer fire in that picture? No, he cannot. And not because the rules say he cannot; the lack of that rule does not open a floodgate. The lack of that rule means everybody at the table needs to ask the following question: "Which thing makes more sense?"

 

Often, you might find yourselves unsure, which leads to the following question: "Which would be more fun for everybody here?"

 

Now, look at the number of posters - many who have been on this board for a long while now by my reckoning - who are arrayed against you on this. They uniformly believe you cannot use the flamer in the case depicted in Falldown's figure.

 

So that's it; them's the brakes. If you find somebody you play with that will allow you to do it, well hey...you can do it. You will not find that here and, given how strictly people disagree with it, I think it's painfully clear that if you try that at an event or a tournament, you will find yourself both forbidden from doing it and probably catching a great deal of ire. My advice: don't do it. You can't fire the flamer and that is okay.

 

It is not significant or even noteworthy that the rules break down here. They break down all the damn time.

[Morollan]

That last part is simply not true; the game isn't so black & white. If you declare the shot then find out that you can't actually place the template correctly, it misses (i.e. the template doesn't go down). It's got to hit something in the declared-target unit or it can't be placed it all.

 

Bolded is patently false. Unless you'd like to actually provide any quote from the rules that this is true. You're claiming something is part of the rules of the game, surely you can provide an actual rule which makes it true or even plausibly true?

 

As has been stated many, many times before

 

Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically

 

Cue further rant about template weapons not having a range.

[thade]

Cue further rant about template weapons not having a range.

I don't feel I'm exaggerating when I say that this is - without a doubt - the silliest thing I have yet seen on this board. "Template weapons don't have range" is like saying "Nothing says you need to read the top faces on the dice in all cases when you roll them." You know, meaning one always rolls 6s.

[Squirrelloid]

That last part is simply not true; the game isn't so black & white. If you declare the shot then find out that you can't actually place the template correctly, it misses (i.e. the template doesn't go down). It's got to hit something in the declared-target unit or it can't be placed it all.

 

Bolded is patently false. Unless you'd like to actually provide any quote from the rules that this is true. You're claiming something is part of the rules of the game, surely you can provide an actual rule which makes it true or even plausibly true?

 

As has been stated many, many times before

 

Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically

 

Cue further rant about template weapons not having a range.

 

See scenario 2: The template weapon is explicitly in range but unable to touch a model in the target squad.

[Something Wycked]

What does friendly models preventing the firing of a template weapon have to do with the template being the range and/or the template being out of range? Your response to Morollan doesn't make sense.

[Squirrelloid]

Well, Squirrelloid, you actually came up with your own answer. You are misinterpreting it, however, or so I believe. So I'm going to try and help you see that. Here's the answer:

 

In the case where there is no orientation which allows the template to be placed without touching a friendly models, the rules break down. Completely. No idea what you do then. The rules say nothing to resolve the issue.

More to the point:

 

...the rules break down. Completely. No idea what you do then. The rules say nothing to resolve the issue.

This happens FREQUENTLY with this game; the rules are often dodgy. Some rules are meant to add to rules that came before while others are meant to override them, and these aren't clearly differentiated in all cases; some rules don't seem to be accounted for at all and so we have situations where what should happen is remarkably unclear.

 

But hte rules *only break down* in the specific situation that its impossible to place the template without a friendly model. The rules DO NOT break down in the situation where you can touch at most 0 models in the target squad. The rules cover that. There is still a solution under the rules to place the template. Nothing is unclear if you follow only the rules given in the book.

 

Touching zero models in the target squad is procedurally valid if that's the most models you can touch without touching any friendly models.

 

Can the guy with the flamer fire in that picture? No, he cannot. And not because the rules say he cannot; the lack of that rule does not open a floodgate. The lack of that rule means everybody at the table needs to ask the following question: "Which thing makes more sense?"

 

I have never claimed he does something because the rules don't say I can't. Everything I've claimed the rules *specifically* allow me to do.

 

-They require me to fire.

-They require me to place the template.

-They require me to find a valid orientation of the template

-They require me to hit all models touched, regardless of squad membership.

 

I've quoted, at length, the rulebook on this matter. You have quoted zero rules at all. You have shown nothing is unclear. All you seem to have is your feelings on how the rules are supposed to work, and you invent rules text to support those feelings.

 

Often, you might find yourselves unsure, which leads to the following question: "Which would be more fun for everybody here?"

 

Now, look at the number of posters - many who have been on this board for a long while now by my reckoning - who are arrayed against you on this. They uniformly believe you cannot use the flamer in the case depicted in Falldown's figure.

 

Fallacy. Argument ad populum. Also argument from authority (with the assumption that being on this board longer means more authority on the intent of the rules). If it was even relevant, I'd guess I've been *playing* longer than most of them. But that's totally irrelevant. The only authority on the rules is Mr. Alessio, who is not involved in this discussion. (And even he can only suggest what he meant, or change the rules via errata (if they are in error, yes please!). He lost control of their meaning the moment he penned them to paper. The only way to change the rules is to errata them.)

 

They have uniformly have failed to cite even a single rule that makes what they say true.

 

Have I quoted any rules in error? No. All the rules I have quoted are right there in everyone's rulebook for emphasis.

 

So that's it; them's the brakes. If you find somebody you play with that will allow you to do it, well hey...you can do it. You will not find that here and, given how strictly people disagree with it, I think it's painfully clear that if you try that at an event or a tournament, you will find yourself both forbidden from doing it and probably catching a great deal of ire. My advice: don't do it. You can't fire the flamer and that is okay.

 

It is not significant or even noteworthy that the rules break down here. They break down all the damn time.

 

So show Scenario 2 is actually a breakdown of the rules. Please. Be explicit. Quote rules text. Prevent the template from firing according to the rules. Just stop making stuff up to suit your preconceived notions.

[thade]

See scenario 2: The template weapon is explicitly in range but unable to touch a model in the target squad.

This was already answered. If he can't hit a model in the target unit, he misses. The rules for template weapons both add to and modify the rules for normal shooting. Yes it hits models underneath it, yes it must be placed to maximize, and yes it cannot fire if it's placed such that a friendly model is underneath it. Nothing in the template rule specifically overrides anything about "If you can't reach you miss." So that's that.

 

Also, stop being antagonistic.

[Squirrelloid]

What does friendly models preventing the firing of a template weapon have to do with the template being the range and/or the template being out of range? Your response to Morollan doesn't make sense.

 

Bolded text is made up. It is not in the rulebook.

 

Templates are never prevented from firing according to the rules. They place according to the rules on p29. I suggest you review those rules, since you are obviously unfamiliar with them.

 

Anyway, the point of my response is that its possible to be 'in range' so we never have to deal with 'automatic misses' (whatever that means for a template), and still be unable to touch a model in the target squad. The template can still be legally placed. It will touch 0 models in the target squad and 0 friendlies. Any such position is a valid placement according to p29 if 0 is the most models in the target squad it can touch.