Fighting New Necrons

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Got a game againts Necrons tomorrow, 1500pts, my casual all rounder list is this:

 

Chaos sorcerer Zarathustra Suicune with Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Bolt of Change 180pts

Troops

Chaos Space marine Squad: 10 marines with Mark of Tzeentch, a Plasma Gun, Missile launcher and Aspiring Champion with Power fist 255pts

Thousand Son squad Belshazzar Aspiring Sorcerer Belshazzar with Bolt of Change and 9 rubric marines 292pts Rhino with Havok Launcher 50pts

Thousand Son squad Ptolemy-Theta Aspiring Sorcerer Ptolemy-Theta with Bolt of Change and 8 rubric marines 269pts rhino 35pts

Heavy Support

Chaos predator withLascannon sponsons 130pts

Chaos predator with Lascannon sponsons 130pts

Chaos Havoks: 5 Havoks with 4 Auto Cannons155pts

Apparently his list uses Immortals as troops, a ctan and he has said he won't be taking much fire as he has the stormlord and 3 of the floating guns (doombarcges?? not sure on the name), apart from that I have no idea as I have never played the new necrons before or read the book. So any advice? Should I drop the rhinos to increase the amount of havoks and csm or Thousand sons? Should I take a dreadnought with plasma cannon or lascannon and a missile launcher instead to help shoot down any tanks he has. He has also said it is a dirty list.Obviously Son's can't do combat, so might it be an idea to drop the missile launcher on the chaos marines, replace it with a melta gun, put them in one of the rhinosand charge them forward, possibly to powerfist the stormlord?

[the jeske]

you should know that if he takes a storm lord+cryptek+ctan combo you will have night fight most of the time [and he will dispel it when ever he wants] + he will hit all of your stuff on a random roll. A chaos army can not out shot a necron one , that of course doesnt mean you have to take only assault stuff , oblits should still be taken . predators against necron are death traps. scarabs are very fast and they drop your AV on all facing by 1 for each hit on a roll of +4 . he will probably run at least 8-10. static preds die from them on turn 2 , probably both being multi charge[scarabs are beasts] .

 

you should have DPs to kill as much as you can in hth [dead units dont res] , and a csm/zerker mix [if the list is suppose to be tailored ] more units means bigger chance of actualy seeing hth and hth is the only place you can actualy win a game against necron .

[Bloodcrusade]

Stormlord will reliably keep Night Fighting in effect through Turn 3, Cryptek can push it to Turn 4 or remove it earlier. However there's two things to note here:

1 ) Cryptek's Solar Pulse is done that the beginning of a turn and remains in effect through the rest of the turn, which means Stormlord's Lightning doesn't happen during that Shooting Phase because it's no longer Night Fighting. Further, if he Pulse's into Night Fighting after the Stormlord's ability has failed to continue, he does not receive Lightning in his Shooting Phase just because it's currently Night Fighting, his ability specifies against it.

2 ) The Stormlord's Lightning only happens on a D6 roll of a "6", with that said I've seen it hit 3/5 units and I've seen it hit 0/10 units in one Shooting Phase. The Lightning shouldn't be that much of a concern, mostly it's the Night Fighting that give him the edge. The Stormlord himself completely blows in CC, even with rerolls. His flamer is nice but other than that he's just there for the Night Fighting.

 

Thousand Sons will eat through his Troops with their AP3 Bolters, and the Bolt will destroy his AV11 vehicles easily, however you can't shoot at both. Might be better to bring Wind instead of Bolt, which will help against Scarabs as well if he brings any.

 

Missile Launcher would be better spent as another Plasmagun, which I've found to be the best weapon all-around against the Newcrons, taking out their AV11 and infantry with ease. In this case the CSM would be better spent as Plague Marines, but then it's all to taste.

 

Pred would be better as 2x2 Oblits, but I don't see them getting killed Turn2 from a Scarab charge, it's too easy to better position yourself than that.

The Havocs are awesome. With their 8 shots, they're going to put the hurt on anything he brings bar a monolith, which he won't be able to bring with 3xDoomsday(Name?) Barges on the board.

 

And keep your rhinos, because outside of them your squad will get eaten from his large blast templates so keep them protected as long as possible.

 

Have fun with your battle man, it's the whole point of the game anyways :lol:

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Obviously Son's can't do combat

 

I'm sorry that you feel that way, considering how much I know you love Thousand Sons.

 

His little special character could kiss his ass goodbye *if* you get in there.

 

List looks fine, I'm not impressed by the new necrons or their tricks.

 

Bait his Scarabs (if any) and then blast them with flamers, preferably from 5 Pyrae chosen. They're your biggest threat, not that dumb and overused special character. Wind of Chaos is not as good in this list because all their weapons can immobilize the rhinos and you can end up walking. Might as well be popping of BoC when that happens. This is the only time you should take BoC. I'd go for 3 Sons squads, you're already taking 2.. You will need the Fearless and the Invuls.

 

You're going to hate me probably, but with a 180pt HQ you might as well bite the bullet and take Ahriman. 5 spells can be useful during a game where you have enemy vehicles, troops, and special characters with good invuls. Gift of Chaos has worked for me recently against necrons, so you can say "Goodnight sweet prince" when they make mistakes.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Thanks, and what's bad about taking Ahriman? It's a really nice model and the extra powers should be good, but I left him at uni (as well as my spray paint for basecoating, really annoying) may ask if I can proxy him, the main problem is his price tag as even with dropping the chaos marine unit I don't have enough spare points

I only Thousand sons can't do combat as in my last three games they have been killed in close combat in one turn by Sanguinary guard and twice by Eldar defender Guardians... which whilst probably just my luck... but I'm not so sure, should have added an extra aspiring sorcerer to lpc vow to replace one of my current ones :blush:

I have enough models for another squad of severn rubrics and a sorcerer with bolt of change that comes at 241pts, leaving me with 18 spare pts, so I could either get a havok launcher for the second rhino or another havok marine..

Thanks for the advice, and will post how it went afterwards.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Well that went badly, was wiped out turn three, in under an hour.

He got first turn, the lighting killed three havoks and blew up a predator, his shooting proceded to destroy the rhino with havok launchers, several rubrics died from it, shake the other predator and other rhino, night fighting meant all my shooting did nothing the game followed this pattern.

All I killed was single destroyer. It turns out he didn't take the big guns, rather he took the twin linked telsa ones.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

I always have 18 points leftover in this codex.

 

Sorry you lost, but it sounds like an early-game gimmick won him the game. Get a rematch with him asap, and bury his army

[jerryrich]

and krap like this is why i think special characters should be permission only. Most people i play (very small group) probably couldnt win a game if not for gimick characters. the game is warhammer not hero-hammer.... sorry rant over

[Brother Ambroz]

Totally agree Jerryrich. Absolutely hate using SCs even in competitive settings. Chaos is one of the few armies that you can play competitively (as competitively as chaos can play nowadays) without SCs.

[Lady_Canoness]

To be honest, I'm not liking the look of your list as to me it looks like it lacks the tactical flexibility required to tackle an enemy that fully intends to beat you at your own game. That being said, I have no idea what you have in your collection, so I would not be able to suggest what you do to improve it.

 

A few things I have learned about Necrons in the times I have fought them:

1) Close the distance. This doesn't mean bum rush 'em, but it is vital that you fight them as close as possible. Their assault troops are all fast moving and thus don't care if you try and stay away - they'll catch you - so you want to get your guns (plasmas and meltas and whatever else you might carry) up close. Most armies (or my armies at least) see exponential increases in killing power as they get closer - Necrons (typically) are just as deadly further away as they are up close (whereas you are likely deadlier the closer you get).

2) Get mobility that can't be countered on the back of one dead Rhino. Outflank, Deep Strike, and daemons (either lesser or greater) are all golden against their bony metal arses, and will often represent something they can't quickly counter. Oblits and terminators are also good choices as they will require a lot of extra attention to take out and can do horrific things to his army in the meantime.

3) Close combat even with unlikely units. I once killed off a 10 man warrior squad and the remnants of a scarab squad with a single Sister of Battle Canoness and one Sister Superior through multiple rounds of combat. Imagine what your S4 and T4 units can do. When you get the chance to charge something (that isn't a wraith or a living god) give it a go! That being said, Thousand Sons are probably better off not doing this...

4) Attrition. That is how you are going to win - by digging in your heels and fighting like its 1999 all over again! Don't expect a clean stomp-fest with these guys, 'cause it won't happen. Any victory is going to come through repeated maulings.

 

Those are just some insights I've garnered. Maybe they help you, maybe they don't, but at least its a new take on things!

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I am certainly thinking of using that kind of houserule with the exception of death/ravenwing players, only problem is if I ever want to try Ahriman, (The only SC I have ever used, am going to ask him for a rematch, but insist no SP. Very few people actually play him anymore so may be able to get him to. Any advice on taking out their tanks/skimmers? the way living metal now works combined with the grey knight codex makes you think war doesn't want shaken to count for half the armies, whilst shaken and stunned results knock out longe support and oblites would just die to the amount of shots.

[Rain]

Gift of Chaos has worked for me recently against necrons, so you can say "Goodnight sweet prince" when they make mistakes.

 

"And may flights of screamers carry you to your rest."

 

In all seriousness though, this is kind of what you should expect, Necrons can field some very powerful builds, especially against mech builds which are coincidentally both the general vogue in 5th (for good reason!) and also the only reliable way to get in close to Necrons to take them out. The problem with Deep Strike and outflank is that it relies on reserve rolls, and then outflank relies on another roll for it to not put you somewhere useless. Deep Strike also suffers from the issue of getting planted to stand around like a tool for a turn while the Necrons pump their small arms into you.

 

Oh and I'm with you guys on the SC thing. I have only ever used Abaddon and that was in Apocalypse (not that he is amazing in regular games anyway) it's just silly and really takes away the personalization aspect of the army. That said, Chaos are not the only army that can be viable without SC's, Wolves can as well, as can DE, I have never even considered running a single DE SC and aside from Vect for his 4+ but I'm doing just fine with my DIY archon and 2x haemy, and actually even tournament lists don't take SC's that often except for sometimes Sliscus to give your silly venoms DS.

 

Honestly, this is one of the few cases when I would advocate 2x Lash Princes (which is actually useful against them because they are one of the few not all mounted armies), 3x berzerkers with fistichamps in rhinos and filling the rest of the points with oblits at 1500 or maybe adding a 4th zerk unit at 1850/2000. Of course that list has no resemblance to a Thousand Sons army, but otherwise you will have to get really lucky to not get stepped on by any of the fair or better Necron lists.

[Kodanshi]

A few things I have learned about Necrons in the times I have fought them:

1) Close the distance. This doesn't mean bum rush 'em, but it is vital that you fight them as close as possible. Their assault troops are all fast moving and thus don't care if you try and stay away - they'll catch you - so you want to get your guns (plasmas and meltas and whatever else you might carry) up close. Most armies (or my armies at least) see exponential increases in killing power as they get closer - Necrons (typically) are just as deadly further away as they are up close (whereas you are likely deadlier the closer you get).

2) Get mobility that can't be countered on the back of one dead Rhino. Outflank, Deep Strike, and daemons (either lesser or greater) are all golden against their bony metal arses, and will often represent something they can't quickly counter. Oblits and terminators are also good choices as they will require a lot of extra attention to take out and can do horrific things to his army in the meantime.

3) Close combat even with unlikely units. I once killed off a 10 man warrior squad and the remnants of a scarab squad with a single Sister of Battle Canoness and one Sister Superior through multiple rounds of combat. Imagine what your S4 and T4 units can do. When you get the chance to charge something (that isn't a wraith or a living god) give it a go! That being said, Thousand Sons are probably better off not doing this...

4) Attrition. That is how you are going to win - by digging in your heels and fighting like its 1999 all over again! Don't expect a clean stomp-fest with these guys, 'cause it won't happen. Any victory is going to come through repeated maulings.

 

Wow, some absolutely brilliant tips there. Thank you very much! :wallbash:

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I would have to disagree on the special character ruling. Why can't someone use a character that is listed in the codex because you cannot deal with the way a list is ran and you cannot change tactics effectively enough? I am not starting a rant nor a flame war, just a simple question. I agree you can use it as permission, but I would look at you sideways if you asked me if you could use a special character that is codex designed to be played with. Forgeworld would be something that would have to be asked because not everyone uses them or can afford such models.

 

I think it was just luck of the draw on the setup of battle and perhaps dice that swayed his win. Dice are always a factor and losing sucks, yes, but I believe the list is a nice setup and is a heavy hitting list, but I am not a chaos player and only see what goes against me and half of that list I have played against and lost and also won against.

 

Special characters are to be used, not denied because someone runs them effectively, there are other things that bring it to seem like it is unfair, but I believe they are justified and need to be adapted if you make a mistake and your opponent capitalizes.

 

I always try to send forces to combat his troops and let the armour fight it out if you have them, if not, use a specialized unit to focus only on them, but as mentioned before bait your opponent then fake them with another and use that to your advantage.

[Brother Ambroz]

Perhaps because special characters take away from the personalization and designing of your own forces? Or maybe it's so GW can sell more of their little plastic men? Or if you want to look at it from a fluff perspective just look at the amount that Draigo is used. Does he really get out there in the universe and fight that many battles? I understand counts-as is great and all but in order to use counts-as you need to have viable SCs to use, of which chaos has no competitive SCs (with the possible exception of Khârn).

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

I would have to disagree on the special character ruling. Why can't someone use a character that is listed in the codex because you cannot deal with the way a list is ran and you cannot change tactics effectively enough? I am not starting a rant nor a flame war, just a simple question.

 

I have to agree with your reasoning, although I don't really like that things are that way. No one's offended by what you posted, sir

 

If we could pick and choose what characters are/are not allowed, we'd never get any games in. Example- I don't like the Stormlord, but I want to use Ahriman. Where is the line to be drawn? ..but that's another topic, I digress.

 

All I can say in this case is that it looks like he was beaten because his army is very close to being unable to compete with *this certain type of enemy*. and it's frustrating. I don't like seeing people lose to abilities. I'm not saying the OP's opponent wasn't skilled, but I simply don't see him picking apart a chaos army and using excellent target priority to systematically destroy RP Ridcully by way of superior tactical decisions. I'm confident he couldn't have done this without that lightning stuff/special character.

 

So I guess there's *my* rant. <3

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

To be honest, I'm not liking the look of your list as to me it looks like it lacks the tactical flexibility required to tackle an enemy that fully intends to beat you at your own game. That being said, I have no idea what you have in your collection, so I would not be able to suggest what you do to improve it.

 

A few things I have learned about Necrons in the times I have fought them:

1) Close the distance. This doesn't mean bum rush 'em, but it is vital that you fight them as close as possible. Their assault troops are all fast moving and thus don't care if you try and stay away - they'll catch you - so you want to get your guns (plasmas and meltas and whatever else you might carry) up close. Most armies (or my armies at least) see exponential increases in killing power as they get closer - Necrons (typically) are just as deadly further away as they are up close (whereas you are likely deadlier the closer you get).

2) Get mobility that can't be countered on the back of one dead Rhino. Outflank, Deep Strike, and daemons (either lesser or greater) are all golden against their bony metal arses, and will often represent something they can't quickly counter. Oblits and terminators are also good choices as they will require a lot of extra attention to take out and can do horrific things to his army in the meantime.

3) Close combat even with unlikely units. I once killed off a 10 man warrior squad and the remnants of a scarab squad with a single Sister of Battle Canoness and one Sister Superior through multiple rounds of combat. Imagine what your S4 and T4 units can do. When you get the chance to charge something (that isn't a wraith or a living god) give it a go! That being said, Thousand Sons are probably better off not doing this...

4) Attrition. That is how you are going to win - by digging in your heels and fighting like its 1999 all over again! Don't expect a clean stomp-fest with these guys, 'cause it won't happen. Any victory is going to come through repeated maulings.

 

Those are just some insights I've garnered. Maybe they help you, maybe they don't, but at least its a new take on things!

Thanks, some Ideas I just had based on those ideas. I have got an old vindicator that I could use, and terminators and a daemon prince are part of my LPC vow. I also have some horrors I bought just before the new plastic ones were released that I have never made (Tried one box of them but they just refused to stay in one peice, will give them another go) so I could put them together, I don't have one at the moment (may get one if I can get a job at the student union this term) but a land raider could be useful, it would be immune to the lightning, take a lot of fire power to destroy, could transport units close enough to the enemy to assault them before getting shot to bits, which could then be springboard for a unit of lesser daemons to deepstrike in and either provide a bullet shield or/and assault his units, as all his units were five man immortal squads and destroyer squad, that could go well. A Daemon prince with wings, MOT, warptime and either bolt or wind would be good as well, it's speed, toughness and killing power meaning he can't ignore it, taking firepower off the rest of the army (particually the tanks and transports) only way he helps with the lightning is if he kills the stormlord, bikers or raptors (I have converted some thousand son bikers) would be similar in that their speed could allow them to get close fast and do damage, particually if they have melt/plasma guns or/and flamers.

@Sgt. Tiberius Satio: Couldn't your justification for disallowing FW then mean units/tanks such as land raiders, terminators ect could be disallowed as not everyone uses them or can afford them? The thing with SP is that they tend to either be not that all impressive for what you pay or very undercosted, especially when their equipment and abilities are compared to regular non SC characters costs, for example Chaplain Cassius compared to regular chaplains. My main problem with the Stormlords lightning is the Strength and amount of hits for an ability that can affect every unit in an opponents army, and will always hit tanks in their side Armour, regardless of their actual position, ie next to each other, a wall/building ect.

[the jeske]

Totally agree Jerryrich. Absolutely hate using SCs even in competitive settings. Chaos is one of the few armies that you have to play competitively (as competitively as chaos can play nowadays) without SCs.

fixed that for you. If chaos specials were good people would have used them .

 

 

 

As I told before the game . Trying to play a shoty chaos list[which wasnt even a good shoty list] was not a good idea . The truth is that even if he replace the storm lord[which is the best HQ for necrons . telling necrons to not use it is like telling chaos players to not pick up DPs] with a overlord on a disc for those high str flyby attacks , scarabs[which will eat the preds] and arks [which by the way arent that great to use the big blast they have to stay static which is more or less death against armies like IG or DEs].

 

All in all , it looks like this chaos is a short range [12" and under] army it does not do 20"+ or it doesnt do it well enough to be viable[and that is from someone who is playing NM] , you want to beat your opponent , you get in to 12" shot assault trade units with your opponent and hope that at the end of turn 4 you have more troops then he has and that your own army is not in the "about the be tabled" state.

[Hellios]

Forgeworld would be something that would have to be asked because not everyone uses them or can afford such models.

 

The cost doesn't really come into it... and on that note not everyone uses a chaos army... In the end everything is by opponents consent. The only difference with FW is that more tournaments don't accept them (Over what you might call the core rules and armies.) and many people have a FW phobia... although I admit a couple of things are broken.

 

So basically if the stormlord is making a mess of your games so much that it isn't fun for you then don't play him if he uses the stormlord or if you can accept the challenge to stomp his tin can arse. If you won't play against the stormlord he may be willing to take a list that doesn't include him.

[jerryrich]

dont get me wrong i can beat most special characters with the armies i play, i just believe that SCs turn the game into hero hammer. If i have a problem with a SC i ususally throw everything i have at it until it dies. a few times of that against a reagular opponent and they will start to change up their list. Most folk (not competative tourny players) get very discouraged when SCs die (that used to be because they cost so much but now its becuse they build their army around some gimick i win rule).

 

If i was really a competative player i wouldnt be playing chaos anyway. i'd stick with my orks (btw i dont need SCs to deliver a stupid amount of pain with them) if i was one of those guys.

[the jeske]

but most used specials arent like that . draigo is , maybe calgar or lysander but all those force a death star build . How is belial or vulkan or khan different in use then a let say a "normal" HQ with SS and relic blade ?

 

So basically if the stormlord is making a mess of your games so much that it isn't fun for you then don't play him if he uses the stormlord or if you can accept the challenge to stomp his tin can arse.

you see but technicly speaking any good build he faces with an chaos army build around singles and predators will give him an NPE . The problem is not the storm lord , but the fact that a shoting chaos army plain doesnt work . That is the problem , not the fact that the storm lord is too good[because he isnt . maybe if he cost 30pts less , then he would because then necron could fit more stuff in to their builds at 1500].

[Chengar Qordath]

Kind of have to agree with jeske on the list-building issue; trying to out-shoot Necrons with Chaos is a non-starter.

[breng77]

the storm lord[which is the best HQ for necrons . telling necrons to not use it is like telling chaos players to not pick up DPs]

 

I have to disagree with this, he is certainly good, but he is arguablly not even the best special character Necron, and the Standard Overlord can be used to create builds that are every bit as good or better.

 

Stormlord will reliably keep Night Fighting in effect through Turn 3, Cryptek can push it to Turn 4 or remove it earlier. However there's two things to note here:

 

The storm lord really does not keep Night fighting up "reliably" past turn 2. Turn 1 is auto. Turn 2 is a 2/3 (66%) chance, Turn 3 is 50-50 if you had night fighting turn 2. What this means is that the odds of the Storm Lord Providing 3 turns of night fighting is only 1/3 or 33%.

 

 

As for the overall SC sentiment on here, I'm totally not for it. While there are some "hero-hammer" special characters, they are really not all that common (Abbadon, Draigo, Mephiston, etc.) In general most people take SCs to modify their army(Belial, Logan, Draigo, Cotaez, Dante, Crowe, Baron Sathonyx) or to act as a force Multiplier/change how the army plays (Vulkan, Ghazzy, khan, stormlord) By limiting SCs you effectively limit the number of possible army builds, and remove some of the Variety in the game. Haing permission for SCs is a terrible idea (IMO), if you don't like some of them you need to ban them all together. Otherwise you are just openning yourself up to tons of arguments. My only Issue with SCs is that GW does a terrible job of balancing them, with standard ICs, and with other SCs in the same book. Just as an example in the GK book there are 3 Inquisition Special Characters, Cotaez(who is undercosted and has most of the best abilities of the 3.), Kramazov (who is decent but a little over costed), and the third is terrible and way over costed. The same is true with the GK PA SC Draigo is a beast and makes paladins troops, Crowe is terrible and makes purifiers troops (which is the only reason he gets played at all), You never see stern, Mordrak is decent, and costed decently for his abilities. So much of this would be easy to fix if you just moved around some of the rules, and you would see a little of all of them. As it stands you are going to see some choices over others. Still restricting SCs means you see even less variety.

[jerryrich]

like i said it just my opinion. I really dont have a problem with special characters that change force org. in fact i like those rules. what i dont like are the super cheap super tuff characters. some of the points costs are off on the super characters, as breng77 said. i think those special force org rules should be upgrades you can buy for your generals but thats just me. I'd love to have an all terminator army but i don't like the idea of having to use a spacific character to do it.

I don't mind (i actually enjoy) play a wide variety of armies but i hate that "the optimal" build or "super" build requires a SC. All that being said i would not tell an opponent that i wouldnt play them cuz they use them. its a game i play for fun. if i cant find opponents i cant have fun. but i do have a bias, and i will go out of my way sometimes (most times) to kill those super characters. I also don't attend tournies that let you use SCs (total personal preference). all that being said.....

 

I do think the OP did have a bad match up. The stormlord makes shooting bad. If i knew i was fighting an army w/ him it would deffinately be a khorne army (mabye nurgle) w/ defilers (2 CCW and they can move fast) or Vindicators (short range shooting anyway) for heavy support.

 

*wow my spelling stinks, think i got em all.....*

[breng77]

I agree with you that I would rather see force multipliers and force org swaps tied to upgrades rather than specific characters, as that would in some ways add more variety. The issue with this is costing it properly (not that all SC are), if you give the ability to take termies as troops as a say 30 point upgrade on any HQ, then it is far cheaper and more obtainable than it is currently in most dexes. (Sometimes the cost of the ICs limits how spammy you can be with certain things.)