Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 As the title says, why didn’t the Emperor blow up Horus’s ship? From Collected Visions: ‘Maloghurst, if I cannot get to the Emperor through the wall of his Palace-fortress then I shall tempt him to come to me. Shut down all shields!’’ ‘’But sire, with the shields lowered, the Vengeful Spirit will be unprotected. Our foes would be able to blast this ship into oblivion’ Maloghurst replied. Erebus also spoke. ‘’My Lord, this is folly. You must teleport to the surface and lead the final assault against the Palace. Without shields we are easy prey. With respect, you must rescind this order.’’ ‘’No, the order stands! The Emperor will not let this ship be fired upon. He will see this action as an invitation, a personal challenge. I am offering him the chance to finally confront me and finish this one way or the other. He will not be able to resist this opportunity. We must prepare for his attack.’’ Both Erebus and Maloghurst confirm that without shields they are sitting ducks. Why didn’t the Emperor destroy the Vengeful Spirit (which with the Imperial Palace’s defenses he could have) and end the conflict right there without risking himself? The other Legions would soon arrive and end the siege and the traitors would break up. All without the loss of the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 From what I have gotten from it all is that he still loved his son and wanted to confront him face to face. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Because he still had hope that Horus could be saved - hence his hesitation during the fight to give it his all. If the Emperor fought unrestricted by hope he would have won the fight much more easily but instead he was gravely wounded by Horus because he held back. It took the intervention of a third party (Pius/Fist Termie/Custodes, take your pick) to prove that Horus was better off dead. Then the Emperor mind-zapped Horus into dust when the Arch-Betrayer showed a moment of clarity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 So it was an irrational decision based on love? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Perhaps. It may not have been, though. I'm not totally sure - it's been a while since I read the story of the Emperor confronting Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Because the Emperor is nothing more than a buffoon with a good PR guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodanshi Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 He had to give Horus a final chance to repent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 I would put the Imperium before Horus honestly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 So would Guilliman and Dorn, considering they'd choose the Imperium over the Emperor. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 The Emperor is not Horus though. Without the Emperor we won’t have an Astromonican. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 True enough, but my comment was to highlight the Dorn and Guilliman would likely have tried to kill Horus from the start, regardless of any offers he would make (a la Sanguinius). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Ok, he opens fire on the Vengeful Spirit. He even manages to destroy it. However, before the Spirit is destroyed, it manages to launch escape pods. They land on Terra, and the traitors manage to retreat back to the rest of their ships and leave. Now, did Horus die? Is the Emperor going to hunt down every single escape pod before its occupants manage to escape, and make sure that Horus isn't amongst them? How can he make sure that amongst the entire warzone, one single being is destroyed, if they even manage to find him? If they don't find him on Terra and kill him, did he actually die on the Vengeful Spirit, or did he manage to escape with the rest of the Traitors, ready to regroup and attack again later? Basically, he had to make sure. When you're trying to end a rebellion, you don't bomb the leaders house and say "well, he's probably dead, let's go home guys!" You hunt him down, and make sure he's dead. You make sure that he cannot come back to lead other rebellions against you. Simply destroying the Vengeful Spirit does none of those things. It's too risky to allow Horus to potentially survive, only to rally and attack again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennisBall Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Perhaps also because the void shields were down only long enough for the single transportation that took place rather than the time it would take for the Palace weapons to destroy it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's because the Emperor still thought that he could turn his son back He wasn't convinced that Horus was totally crazy/evil yet. Once he saw Sanguinius's body, and saw the random soldier get zapped, he finally realized, and destroyed Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2958992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 An open invitation to confront his wayward son, greatest creation and failure; in person, could he really refuse? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 There's also the matter of looking like a coward. The Imperium's strongest branch, the Space Marine Legions, are based on fearless, honour-driven men who put themselves in harm's way every day before breakfast, and would not hesitate to contribute to a pile of corpses with their own if that meant the Emperor would be safe. If Sigismund can go around a siege looking for duels instead of lascannoning champions, what excuse would the Emperor have for not taking the opportunity to crush the serpent's head himself? Anyway, it's not like Horus would've had the shields dropped if he thought there was a chance that he'd just be fired upon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Also, without spoiling the Outcast Dead for anyone : The Emperor knew he was going to die, and that he had to do it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Also do remember that the Palace had no real anti air defences left par the Lion Head Space Port that was taken back by the Khan but even that was busy with taking out as many troop landers as possible, the Spirit is one of the largest and most powerfullest ships in the entire heresy, only the Phallanx could out match it, it take more than one shot to cripple or even damage the paint work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Probably Emperor had an overarching plan. One would think a pragmatic guy like Emperor would smoke Horus when the opportunity presents itself. Not only he does not destroy Vengeful Spirit when possible, he gets killed by Horus even though he could kill him anytime during their duel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Ok, he opens fire on the Vengeful Spirit. He even manages to destroy it. However, before the Spirit is destroyed, it manages to launch escape pods. They land on Terra, and the traitors manage to retreat back to the rest of their ships and leave.Now, did Horus die? Is the Emperor going to hunt down every single escape pod before its occupants manage to escape, and make sure that Horus isn't amongst them? How can he make sure that amongst the entire warzone, one single being is destroyed, if they even manage to find him? If they don't find him on Terra and kill him, did he actually die on the Vengeful Spirit, or did he manage to escape with the rest of the Traitors, ready to regroup and attack again later? Basically, he had to make sure. When you're trying to end a rebellion, you don't bomb the leaders house and say "well, he's probably dead, let's go home guys!" You hunt him down, and make sure he's dead. You make sure that he cannot come back to lead other rebellions against you. Simply destroying the Vengeful Spirit does none of those things. It's too risky to allow Horus to potentially survive, only to rally and attack again. Well as Horus himself stated, the only chance he had at winning was at the siege and he took a gamble that the Emperor would come. Even if he does manage to escape he would have still lost and I don’t think I’ll be getting another chance to attack Terra once the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines arrive at the place. Perhaps also because the void shields were down only long enough for the single transportation that took place rather than the time it would take for the Palace weapons to destroy it. Then Erebus and Maloghurst would not be worried. Yet even Horus acknowledges the strong possibility that they will be destroyed. There's also the matter of looking like a coward. The Imperium's strongest branch, the Space Marine Legions, are based on fearless, honour-driven men who put themselves in harm's way every day before breakfast, and would not hesitate to contribute to a pile of corpses with their own if that meant the Emperor would be safe. If Sigismund can go around a siege looking for duels instead of lascannoning champions, what excuse would the Emperor have for not taking the opportunity to crush the serpent's head himself? Space Marines are also quite practical and not honor-obsessed killbots. The Templars and like would be in the minority. As stated before Guilliman and Dorn would have fired. If Astartes could take out an enemy with an orbital bombardment rather than waste bolter shells on the ground, they would do so. Anyway, it's not like Horus would've had the shields dropped if he thought there was a chance that he'd just be fired upon. Erebus and Maloghurst both state that they could be destroyed easily and Horus actually seems to agree with them but states the Emperor won’t order that. Also do remember that the Palace had no real anti air defences left par the Lion Head Space Port that was taken back by the Khan but even that was busy with taking out as many troop landers as possible, the Spirit is one of the largest and most powerfullest ships in the entire heresy, only the Phallanx could out match it, it take more than one shot to cripple or even damage the paint work. We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. True, but they were also aware of the loyalists fleets that were fast approaching, if the Emperor didn't rise to the challenge then it would definately worry anyone being on a un shielded ship against two whole fleets, regardless of what kind you were on Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. True, but they were also aware of the loyalists fleets that were fast approaching, if the Emperor didn't rise to the challenge then it would definately worry anyone being on a un shielded ship against two whole fleets, regardless of what kind you were on He was aware, in the page before the Emperor even identifies who are coming in the loyalist fleet and he states that Horus overestimates his own powers compared to the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Poor Primarchs, I'm always confused as to if the big E knew Horus would turn evil and in doing so take half the Imperium and his loyal loving sons with him why did the Emperor stuggle so much in order to create his imperium if only to have it blown to hell. Unless thats his way of destorying the unworthy. I certainly pitty Horus Though. As charismatic he was he would only ever be a puppet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. True, but they were also aware of the loyalists fleets that were fast approaching, if the Emperor didn't rise to the challenge then it would definately worry anyone being on a un shielded ship against two whole fleets, regardless of what kind you were on He was aware, in the page before the Emperor even identifies who are coming in the loyalist fleet and he states that Horus overestimates his own powers compared to the Emperor. When did the Emperor or anyone on Terra during the seige know that reinforcements were coming? It has always been that they were completely cut off from all avenues of comunication and were in a no hope last stand situation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. True, but they were also aware of the loyalists fleets that were fast approaching, if the Emperor didn't rise to the challenge then it would definately worry anyone being on a un shielded ship against two whole fleets, regardless of what kind you were on He was aware, in the page before the Emperor even identifies who are coming in the loyalist fleet and he states that Horus overestimates his own powers compared to the Emperor. When did the Emperor or anyone on Terra during the seige know that reinforcements were coming? It has always been that they were completely cut off from all avenues of comunication and were in a no hope last stand situation. Collected Visions-Visions of Death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/#findComment-2959443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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