Son of Rawl Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 We don’t know the state of the defenses actually, and of course Erebus and Malughurst would not be worried if the enemy had no means of targeting them. True, but they were also aware of the loyalists fleets that were fast approaching, if the Emperor didn't rise to the challenge then it would definately worry anyone being on a un shielded ship against two whole fleets, regardless of what kind you were on He was aware, in the page before the Emperor even identifies who are coming in the loyalist fleet and he states that Horus overestimates his own powers compared to the Emperor. When did the Emperor or anyone on Terra during the seige know that reinforcements were coming? It has always been that they were completely cut off from all avenues of comunication and were in a no hope last stand situation. Collected Visions-Visions of Death. Hope thats changed in the BL series, as to me that sounds completely retarded. It has always been a major reason why the Emperor accepted the challenge in the first place, now it looks as though he is going up for to prevent being remembered for keeping his chair warm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 True enough, but my comment was to highlight the Dorn and Guilliman would likely have tried to kill Horus from the start, regardless of any offers he would make (a la Sanguinius). In Nemesis, when the Assassinorum are planning to take out Horus, Dorn is against it- because he figures that Horus, at least, is predictable. Remove him, and somebody less predictable might step into the power vacuum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 If you had removed Horus then the figurehead of the heresy would have been gone. It would have splintered and collapsed, being no where near what it was like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's possible that another Primarch could have stepped into Horus's place though. Or the fleet might have split up with each faction independantly ravaging the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959569 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's possible that another Primarch could have stepped into Horus's place though. Or the fleet might have split up with each faction independantly ravaging the Imperium. Lorgar is the next candidate for a Chaos undivided champion and even he pretty much says the other Primarchs won’t really follow him and Horus is the only one that can do it. I guess you could say Magnus, but by that time in the Heresy Magnus had already gone full Tzeentch and had lost 9/10 of his Legion. I don’t think Angron or Mortarion would follow Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 It's possible that another Primarch could have stepped into Horus's place though. Or the fleet might have split up with each faction independantly ravaging the Imperium. Lorgar is the next candidate for a Chaos undivided champion and even he pretty much says the other Primarchs won’t really follow him and Horus is the only one that can do it. I guess you could say Magnus, but by that time in the Heresy Magnus had already gone full Tzeentch and had lost 9/10 of his Legion. I don’t think Angron or Mortarion would follow Magnus. Fulgrim might have stepped in, though by this point I believe everyone knows that's not really Fulgrim in there anymore so that makes it moot, not to mention Slaanesh had already claimed him so there's the animosity problem. I can't imagine them putting Alpharius in charge, though that would certainly have been a really intriguing change of paradigm. That would leave Perturabo as being the only viable Undivided candidate for the job. . .wow. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Night Haunter? Not exactly a leader type, it must be said. Still, do any of the other primarchs have a grudge against him? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Night Haunter? Not exactly a leader type, it must be said. Still, do any of the other primarchs have a grudge against him? Aside from him being wigged out crazy and downright scary to be around? Maybe not so much a "grudge" as just a general distrust and unwillingness to fight the kind of war Curze would have wanted to fight. There's also his whole "I work with Chaos but not for it" thing, and with half the Primarchs already going mono-Warp god that doesn't exactly jibe well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 Yeah, Curze was nuts in the fruit loops way. I can’t think of anybody who would follow him. So, yeah, Dorn not wanting to kill Horus because he’s predictable and someone else would have taken his place is a contrived excuse IMO. I can’t think of anybody else mid-Heresy who could have taken over and successfully held together all of the traitors, much less fight the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 If Horus had been killed then well the Heresy is pretty much over, at the very least hampered severely. Magnus can't lead as well it isn't his sort of thing and Mortarion distrusts him and his sorcery, Angron and Perturabo probably both distrust him too. Alpharius/Omegon, they would plan it to almost perfection, sabotages and the likes going off everywhere. However they lack the respect of the others and their method of war wouldn't sit well with their brothers, especially Angron. Horus was the most charismatic of the lot, the only one really who could hold such a fragile alliance together and even he struggled at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 True enough, but my comment was to highlight the Dorn and Guilliman would likely have tried to kill Horus from the start, regardless of any offers he would make (a la Sanguinius). In Nemesis, when the Assassinorum are planning to take out Horus, Dorn is against it- because he figures that Horus, at least, is predictable. Remove him, and somebody less predictable might step into the power vacuum. I stand corrected. I do, however, assert the time period intended was the Siege of Terra, rather than midway through the Heresy, though. Granted in the middle of the civil war would have been a bad idea with so many other likely 'Generals' (see - primarchs) to take his place but at the height of such a decisive battle as the Siege of Terra? I'd think such a blow would have fragmented the rebels and sent them fleeing in the same manner as when the Emperor killed Horus, perhaps in even greater disarray. Maybe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 And that's why the Emperor tried to kill Horus, but do so in a way that he could be sure Horus was dead. Simply destroying his ship throws enormous amounts of doubt onto his 'death'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2959967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 And that's why the Emperor tried to kill Horus, but do so in a way that he could be sure Horus was dead. Simply destroying his ship throws enormous amounts of doubt onto his 'death'. But it wins the Siege of Terra and allows three loyalist Legions, including the 250,000 man Ultramarines Legion, relatively untouched by the Heresy, to come in and place themselves under the Emperor’s command. Plus the traitors will be easy to pursue in the confusion as the loyalist reinforcements arrive. Even if Horus survives the loyalists will have the upper hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 But it wins the Siege of Terra How so? When does destroying a flagship of a blockading armada win a ground battle? :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 But it wins the Siege of Terra How so? When does destroying a flagship of a blockading armada win a ground battle? :rolleyes: Communications are down, your leader is temporarily out of the battle. When Horus died his Legions fell apart. With his communications done and him out of the battle at least temporarily then the cohesion of his Legion will fall apart. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 The legions fell apart because Horus was definitely dead. No if's, but's or maybe's. Loss of the flagship, however? Transfer the flag. Have another leader stand in. A leader missing in action is not as devastating as a leader killed in action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 The legions fell apart because Horus was definitely dead. No if's, but's or maybe's. With communications down and the flagship lost it will achieve much the same effect. . Loss of the flagship, however? Transfer the flag. Assuming Horus can make it off the ship or transfer the flag without being shot down.I’m assuming that the Emperor will concentrate every gun he has at the siege at Horus’s battle barge, which should be quite a lot. It won’t be a slow destruction. I’m imagining something like it being vaporized quickly. I doubt he will have tie mot make it off the ship. If he could escape easily then why would Erebus or Maloghurst be worried? Plus the temporary confusion should help the Imperium anyway. Have another leader stand in. Like who? I can’t imagine any of the other traitor Primarch leading. A leader missing in action is not as devastating as a leader killed in action. Okay, he transfers his flag. So what? Horus knows his gambit has failed and the reinforcements are arriving. He had lost. He can stay and be defeated or he can retreat and lose much face for failing at Terra. He will probably be chased back to the Eye like in canon, but it will be bloodier. The Chaos Gods might even spawnify him. However all of that is offset by the Emperor being alive and the Imperium will not suffer ten thousand years of stagnation and darkness. The Chaos Gods pretty much won a long-term victory by crippling the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 With communications down and the flagship lost it will achieve much the same effect. That's debatable, it'd certainly cause confusion and possibly lead to some disarray. Whether or not it'd make the traitors flee the fight is dependent on whether they thought they were screwed - admittedly a good possibility. But, as I said earlier, a missing leader is not the stake to the heart a dead one is. Assuming Horus can make it off the ship or transfer the flag without being shot down. I’m assuming that the Emperor will concentrate every gun he has at the siege at Horus’s battle barge, which should be quite a lot. It won’t be a slow destruction. I’m imagining something like it being vaporized quickly. I doubt he will have tie mot make it off the ship. If he could escape easily then why would Erebus or Maloghurst be worried? Plus the temporary confusion should help the Imperium anyway. That's a fair point. Question is; just how many guns were still operational at that time? We have no idea, really, as we can only speculate. But yes, why the worry if the danger wasn't real? So there must be something that can hurt the Vengeful Spirit. Like who? I can’t imagine any of the other traitor Primarch leading. Also a fair point. All the other primarchs present were on the ground - plus they'd undoubtedly argue over who gets the spurs. So yes, you're right. Okay, he transfers his flag. So what? Horus knows his gambit has failed and the reinforcements are arriving. He had lost. He can stay and be defeated or he can retreat and lose much face for failing at Terra. He will probably be chased back to the Eye like in canon, but it will be bloodier. The Chaos Gods might even spawnify him. However all of that is offset by the Emperor being alive and the Imperium will not suffer ten thousand years of stagnation and darkness. The Chaos Gods pretty much won a long-term victory by crippling the Emperor. Okay, let's face it - I was being pernickity for the sake of it. :huh: I think my point was that with the Vengeful Spirit shot to pieces, it could be easy enough for Horus to be presumed dead, with the result being less of an immediate impact to the rebels. I do agree that in a face-to-face confrontation the Emperor stood more to lose though, which I suppose he did, ultimately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Both Erebus and Maloghurst confirm that without shields they are sitting ducks. Why didn’t the Emperor destroy the Vengeful Spirit (which with the Imperial Palace’s defenses he could have) This is a suspension of disbelief breaker for me. I may be having my fluff tainted by the Battlefleet Gothic rules (wherein a ship has about 4x as many hull points as the shield strength) but I just don't see how the traitor fleet could have sat in orbit for two months if there were any meaningful ground based guns left after the initial attack. I have a much easier time accepting Malcador hiding the entire moon of Titan than I do accepting the idea that the invasion of Terra could have happened with firepower of that magnitude left intact - even if the Vengeful Spirit was protected by thrice damned warp infused platinum plated handwavium that level of firepower could have obliterated the rest of the traitor fleet in that time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Both Erebus and Maloghurst confirm that without shields they are sitting ducks. Why didn’t the Emperor destroy the Vengeful Spirit (which with the Imperial Palace’s defenses he could have) This is a suspension of disbelief breaker for me. I may be having my fluff tainted by the Battlefleet Gothic rules (wherein a ship has about 4x as many hull points as the shield strength) but I just don't see how the traitor fleet could have sat in orbit for two months if there were any meaningful ground based guns left after the initial attack. I have a much easier time accepting Malcador hiding the entire moon of Titan than I do accepting the idea that the invasion of Terra could have happened with firepower of that magnitude left intact - even if the Vengeful Spirit was protected by thrice damned warp infused platinum plated handwavium that level of firepower could have obliterated the rest of the traitor fleet in that time. If the Emperor has no defense guns that could take out the Vengeful Spirit then Erebus and Maloghurst would not be worried. I have already addressed this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244739-why-didt-the-emperor-destroy-the-venegeful-spirit/page/2/#findComment-2960325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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