Snipers/Heavy Bolters

[Buliwyf]

As I'm becoming more and more familiar with the codex and the rules of 40k, I had a question I would appreciate your input on.

 

I was wondering if the following would be a viable tactic:

To loadout a squad of scouts with 4 snipers and a Heavy Bolter (maybe two) and use the Behind Enemy Lines ability. This would hopefully deploy all of them into range, and make them a threat immediately (which, of course, is the idea). Now with snipers replacing bolters, that still leaves the 4 snipers with close combat weapons, and with the counter attack ability, still a force to be reckoned with, so if any hostiles move into range or assault the squad, they can still hold their own.

 

The only two tactics I've seen scouts being used for is A) A Behind Enemy Lines unit that tangles up a long-range weapon squad or busts a tank with a melta or :lol: Infiltrated with snipers - and nothing but - to focus fire on a potentially lethal unit or HQ. Can the two be combined, taking Heavy Bolters and creating a nightmare for infantry? This lays down a Heavy 3 and a pinning save. Has anyone tried this with some measure of success?

 

Could I potentially be reading the rules wrong, and the snipers /don't/ get a close combat option? If the snipers do, do the Heavy Bolter Units?

 

Let me know what you think.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

It has potential but I am in love with the Melta scouts.

 

After seeing them blow up a land raider and then charge next turn into Gaunts during a team game and completely wipe the gaunts in close combat, I dare say that Space Wolf scouts should always be used aggressively and that the more heavy weapons they have, the weaker they are because of their higher weapon skill/outflank abilities.

 

As a space wolf enemy, I would not be afraid of 1 wound a turn from the sniper rifles and maybe a wound from a heavy bolter. I am afraid of losing a tank instantly on turn 2.

[Schertenleib]

You can still fight in close combat. The Heavy Bolter would just have his base number of attacks +charge bonus if you make your Counter-attack roll. The Sniper Rifles don't replace your bolt pistol when you buy them, so your snipers would get base attackes +1 for two CCW + your Counter-attack bonus. You won't be able to fire when you come on board as the Heavy Bolter and Sniper Rifles as heavy weapons. A thought might be to throw in melta bombs, just in case there is a nice juicy piece of armor handy to attack.

[Buliwyf]

So their deployment is considered movement and I won't be able to immediately fire? That throws a wrench in it.

 

Ah-a-nothepsis: A higher weapon skill in comparison to enemy troop choices? That certainly makes sense, that you'd want to capitalize on that strength, and many units are content to sit back and just pepper you with fire.

 

I'm unfamiliar with the outflank ability as I leaf through my 5ed Rulebook?

[Wulf Vengis]

So their deployment is considered movement and I won't be able to immediately fire? That throws a wrench in it.

 

Ah-a-nothepsis: A higher weapon skill in comparison to enemy troop choices? That certainly makes sense, that you'd want to capitalize on that strength, and many units are content to sit back and just pepper you with fire.

 

I'm unfamiliar with the outflank ability as I leaf through my 5ed Rulebook?

I believe she meant higher WS/BS than normal marine scouts, but yes they have a better WS/BS than many of their enemies as well. The Wolf Scouts also have Behind enemy Lines instead of Outflank which means on a 1 they arrive on their controllers left side table edge, on a 2 they arrive on the right table edge and on 3+ they arrive on whatever edge youd like (even your opponents deployment edge). Wolf Scouts kitted out with melta and standard gear are far superior to the sniper kit. Ive run both loadouts at the same time and the BEL pack is ALWAYS more effective.

[Sven Firewolf]

Before I begin, in my local group, any "light" heavy bolters are given "suspensors" i.e rng 18, assault 3 from the deathwatch article.

 

I quite often field 5 scouts with melta bombs, 2 plasma pistols and a heavy bolter and they wreck havoc using behind enemy lines.

[Kassill]

Just to clarify, you do in fact have to trade either the Bolt Pistol OR CCW for the Sniper Rifle, so the most attacks you could have with a sniper rifle would be 1 base + 1 charge/counter attack, right? Because you only get a bonus for having both the Bolt Pistol AND the CCW, right?

 

Or have I read something wrong? :)

[Buliwyf]

So Outflank is synonymous with BEL?

 

Thanks for all of the suggestions and input, Brethren and Sistren. As it is, I can potentially field both ranged/CC units. Will try one of the loadouts tomorrow against some Blood Angels (probably the ranged kit, I hear the BA are pretty nasty up close) and let you know how I do.

[postal105]

blood angels are not that nasty in CC if you charge them first.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Just to clarify, you do in fact have to trade either the Bolt Pistol OR CCW for the Sniper Rifle, so the most attacks you could have with a sniper rifle would be 1 base + 1 charge/counter attack, right? Because you only get a bonus for having both the Bolt Pistol AND the CCW, right?

 

Or have I read something wrong? :wallbash:

That is how I read it as well, either the Pistol or CCW must be replaced to get a Sniper. My opinion is to always replace the CCW. There is no difference between the Pistol and CCW when in CC itself, and keeping the Pistol allows the Scout to have an Assault weapon (something they can shoot then Assault) should the need ever arise.

 

Before I begin, in my local group, any "light" heavy bolters are given "suspensors" i.e rng 18, assault 3 from the deathwatch article.

Where are those rules coming from?

[Wulf Vengis]

So Outflank is synonymous with BEL?

 

Thanks for all of the suggestions and input, Brethren and Sistren. As it is, I can potentially field both ranged/CC units. Will try one of the loadouts tomorrow against some Blood Angels (probably the ranged kit, I hear the BA are pretty nasty up close) and let you know how I do.

Outflank works somewhat differantly, its essentially the same pricipal however.

If youre going with the snipers HB loadout then youll want to infiltrate them near or in cover, use their Scout move to get better cover then go with target priority. Shoot/pin the killy stuff down, and dont leave the Infiltrated Scouts without some for of support should they need it. I would take 8 and give at least 3 Bolters for that extra midrange oomph to help should they find themselves looking at a closing enemy unit.

[Wulfebane]

I was wondering if the following would be a viable tactic:

To loadout a squad of scouts with 4 snipers and a Heavy Bolter (maybe two) and use the Behind Enemy Lines ability.

 

You can still fight in close combat. The Heavy Bolter would just have his base number of attacks +charge bonus if you make your Counter-attack roll. The Sniper Rifles don't replace your bolt pistol when you buy them, so your snipers would get base attackes +1 for two CCW + your Counter-attack bonus.

 

Just to clarify, you do in fact have to trade either the Bolt Pistol OR CCW for the Sniper Rifle, so the most attacks you could have with a sniper rifle would be 1 base + 1 charge/counter attack, right? Because you only get a bonus for having both the Bolt Pistol AND the CCW, right?

 

Or have I read something wrong? :D

That is how I read it as well, either the Pistol or CCW must be replaced to get a Sniper. My opinion is to always replace the CCW. There is no difference between the Pistol and CCW when in CC itself, and keeping the Pistol allows the Scout to have an Assault weapon (something they can shoot then Assault) should the need ever arise.

 

Whoa whoa whoa.. some people should re-familiarize with their codex. Kassill and Malachi are correct. Here's some excerpts straight from the codex regarding Wolf Scouts:

 

Options:

* Any model may replace his bolt pistol and/or close combat weapon with:

-Boltgun

-Sniper Rifle

 

* One Wolf Scout may replace his bolt pistol with:

-Flamer or heavy bolter

-Meltagun or missile launcher

-Plasma gun

 

Starting with the OP's quote, you are not allowed more than one Heavy Bolter (or melta or ML for that matter) one pack of scouts. However, should you choose, you can replace one scout's ccw with a sniper rifle, and his bolt pistol with a heavy bolter...though why anyone would want to is beyond me.

 

Kassill is right about the amount of attacks due to the lack of an extra ccw (since you have either sacrificed your bolt pistol or ccw to receive these sniper rifles).

 

I also agree with Malachi regarding the sacrifice of a ccw whenever possible so that you can still shoot and move (as is standard practice). It allows you to shoot into the squad you intend to charge OR you can kite them by running away (optimally through cover) if it is a squad you have no hope of beating in melee.

 

Alternately (and I have never seen anyone do this) should you never want your scouts in melee, preferring to keep them ranged, you could trade your ccw for a sniper rifle and bolt pistol for a boltgun - as mentioned above - removing the ability to fire prior to assaulting, but instead opt to Rapid Fire (or snipe) and take the charge should your target survive the barrage. This tactic would best be used by players who use their scouts to hit and run, rather than lead them into melee.

 

Note that since you MUST sacrifice your bolt pistol to receive a heavy bolter, that model will not be able to fire any weapon should his pack choose to move.

[Schertenleib]

Sorry about posting bad information. I'm at work and don't have my codex handy to double check.

 

Thanks for catching my gaff!

[Hfran Morkai]

You could spend some points and gain an extra attack for two Scouts in a Sniper/Bolter/Heavy Bolter pack.

 

Space Wolf FAQ: Wolf Scouts Pack, Options, last bullet point

Change “Up to two Wolf Scouts may replace their bolt

pistol with:” to “Up to two Wolf Scouts may take:”

 

Therefore you can swap either Close Combat Weapon or Bolt Pistol for a Sniper Rifle, then take a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for up to two Scouts, making them quite nasty.

[Sven Firewolf]

My rules are just an unoficial house rule for wolf scout heavy bolters due to the fact they do not get hellfire shells

[TheLastHuzzah]

Having not read through all of the above posts, 85% of the time I will run BEL squads like those listed above.

 

However, I've found that sniper/HB or sniper/ML scouts are actually very good in smaller battles (<= 1250). You will often find folks trying to sneak ork bikers, Wraithlords, etc. as those are tough to deal with in low point games. Much above 1250, and you should have enough firepower to deal with those threats and the sniper/heavy weapon scouts kind of lose their niche.

 

When I do field said squad, I'll usually make use of infiltrate rather than BEL so that I don't waste a turn of shooting. Most recently, I have used 5 snipers + 1 ML, which comes in at 115 pts, and they do well for me.

 

Cheers

[Buliwyf]

The input has been great and you've clarified a lot for me, all! Thank you, Sons of Russ!

 

Tonight was my first (ever) game. My Blood Angels opponent didn't show until it was too late, so I started a game against a 'Nid army. My inexperience was apparent. I infiltrated the ranged scouts. I had points leftover, and bolstered them with two more scouts with Boltguns. The affects were underwhelming. I was content to sit back and weaken his Warriors as much as I possibly could. I figured that since I was against 'Nids, I wouldn't want to pull into close combat too soon. I was wrong, and a few bad rolls landed my entire squad annihilated in 2 rounds to venom cannon fire. I reflected on how much I would have enjoyed deploying BEL to tie up his Zoanthrope in Close Combat. Lesson Learned.

[Wulfebane]

You remembered the pinning rule, right?

[Buliwyf]

I did remember the pinning rule, but first with no successes and then he was able to make the save, so no avail.

 

I tried the BEL loadout and had a lot of success today until my Scouts failed to assault a covered position on the last game and were abruptly decimated by heavy weaponry. I played about 7 or so games today, and the scouts were basically the key role-players (whether by victory points or contesting objectives) in all of my wins of which I got 3 (or 4... I played A LOT today, my brain is pretty fried). Really beginning to see your addiction to them, Ah-a-nothepsis, I think I caught the bug, myself.

[Spacefrisian]

I was wondering if the following would be a viable tactic:

To loadout a squad of scouts with 4 snipers and a Heavy Bolter (maybe two) and use the Behind Enemy Lines ability. This would hopefully deploy all of them into range, and make them a threat immediately (which, of course, is the idea). Now with snipers replacing bolters, that still leaves the 4 snipers with close combat weapons, and with the counter attack ability, still a force to be reckoned with, so if any hostiles move into range or assault the squad, they can still hold their own.

 

 

The idea will most likely have a similar reaction as this...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xwLl2pWg5F4/SbAfmK7kDMI/AAAAAAAAAk4/3xsC0eFPFv8/s320/Rocks%20Eyebrow.jpg

 

As you do away with there greatest advantage of OBEL, eg suprise attack. Youre opponent will either blast them of the table without them ever done anything or get out of sight or combat with other units letting them waste another turn.

[Grey Mage]

The input has been great and you've clarified a lot for me, all! Thank you, Sons of Russ!

 

Tonight was my first (ever) game. My Blood Angels opponent didn't show until it was too late, so I started a game against a 'Nid army. My inexperience was apparent. I infiltrated the ranged scouts. I had points leftover, and bolstered them with two more scouts with Boltguns. The affects were underwhelming. I was content to sit back and weaken his Warriors as much as I possibly could. I figured that since I was against 'Nids, I wouldn't want to pull into close combat too soon. I was wrong, and a few bad rolls landed my entire squad annihilated in 2 rounds to venom cannon fire. I reflected on how much I would have enjoyed deploying BEL to tie up his Zoanthrope in Close Combat. Lesson Learned.

Sniper scouts shine more against monstrous creatures than warriors, where their ability to always wound on a 4+ makes the T6 of many larger tyranids meaningless and the rending helps get through their hides.

 

Missile Launchers for the warriors, or lascannons- because they are strong enough to inflict instant death on these guys, ignoring the three wounds that tyranid warriors have.