Gabriel Seth question

[raivana12]

Me and a buddy of mine had a discussion on Gabriel Seth's special rule "Ferocious Instincts " . while we were playing a unit of his assault marines were attacking Seth and his unit of assault marines. his marines had a chaplain with them ,and they got to assault me so they got to reroll there "to hit rolls "

 

he had rolled 4 1s against Seth and I told him " ok now before you reroll those i get to see if i wound you , he contested that since they were able to be rerolled id have to roll hit him back if he rolled any ones on his reroll , in which 2 of them were 1s again . should i have rolled 4 "to wound rolls BEFORE he re made his "to hit "rerolls

and then do it again after he rerolled and rolled to more 1s?

 

for those who dont know this rule :

"Ferocious Instincts "for every roll of '1' to hit seth in close combat enemy units immediatly sufferan automatic str 4 hit as the chapter master takes advantage of the opening

[Elric the Silvercoat]

I would say yes in a Fluff stand point but in a balance game stand point I am not sure. Seems like a free way to get extra hits if you can do both just my opinion.

[company veteran]

because they are RErolls the first roll is completely ignored.. so no you dont get free attacks

[raivana12]

even thought his rulle say immediately ?

[Leonaides]

yes. The re-roll makes the first roll non-existant.

[JamesI]

Agreed with Leonaidas. The first roll never occurred, the last is all that matters.

[librisrouge]

Another +1 for Leonaides. Re-rolls completely make the initial rolls non-existent.

[knife&fork]

Another +1 for Leonaides. Re-rolls completely make the initial rolls non-existent.

 

That's just your RAI and not RAW. Even RAI you could justify hits one the first or both rolls as well.

 

The wording of the rule clearly breaks the normal combat sequence.

[Sir Blayse]

It would only count the one's after the re-roll. It is the same for having TL-linked Plasma reroll your one's before you have to take saves for the 'ones'.

 

As before, you don't count the rolls before the re-roll. They don't exist.

[knife&fork]

It would only count the one's after the re-roll. It is the same for having TL-linked Plasma reroll your one's before you have to take saves for the 'ones'.

 

As before, you don't count the rolls before the re-roll. They don't exist.

 

The Gets Hot! USR uses a different wording. It even has a special paragraph for dealing with rerolls.

[SevenExxes]

Seth attacks after the re-rolls. Otherwise it would make re-rolls not only redundant but painful to use against Seth.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

The re-rolls blurb in the bottom-left of p2 of the Rulebook says that when re-rolling "The second score counts..." which tells you that the first score doesn't; that it is replaced to all intents and purposes by the second score.

 

There's obviously nothing wrong with asking the question, but insisting that you get an extra hit from Seth for 1s which are then re-rolled and don't score 1s is the worst kind of rules-lawyering IMO.

 

Hey guys, did you know that the Rulebook doesn't tell you which face of the die to get your score from? It's brilliant, I roll and then just pick whatever result I want every time. I sucked at 40k until I noticed this and now I stomp all these losers who insist on their silly RAI of only reading the result from the top of the die.

[Leonaides]

be nice... :-)

[knife&fork]

There's obviously nothing wrong with asking the question, but insisting that you get an extra hit from Seth for 1s which are then re-rolled and don't score 1s is the worst kind of rules-lawyering IMO.

 

Nothing stops you and your group from house ruling it if you think it makes more sense that way. It's not playing it RAW however, and what you consider "the worst kind of rules-lawyering" someone else would think of as an interesting and fun USR.

[Morollan]

Another +1 for Leonaides. Re-rolls completely make the initial rolls non-existent.

 

That's just your RAI and not RAW. Even RAI you could justify hits one the first or both rolls as well.

 

The wording of the rule clearly breaks the normal combat sequence.

 

How is it not RAW? Page 2 of the rules makes it clear that the second score counts, not the first. The first roll no longer exists.

[knife&fork]

Another +1 for Leonaides. Re-rolls completely make the initial rolls non-existent.

 

That's just your RAI and not RAW. Even RAI you could justify hits one the first or both rolls as well.

 

The wording of the rule clearly breaks the normal combat sequence.

 

How is it not RAW? Page 2 of the rules makes it clear that the second score counts, not the first. The first roll no longer exists.

 

Seth's rule says that the counter hit is applied immediately in response to any roll of 1 to hit. It doesn't say "after all rolls to hit have been made" or something like that. In this situation the 1 you rolled at first doesn't count when we determine if you hit him or not, but it still triggers his special rule. Saying that the first roll "no longer exists" adds nothing to the discussion since that wording is nowhere to be found in the rule text.

[Morollan]

So you're saying that the original dice roll counts for one thing but not another. Any citation to support that? The rulebook says that the second roll counts, not both.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

There's obviously nothing wrong with asking the question, but insisting that you get an extra hit from Seth for 1s which are then re-rolled and don't score 1s is the worst kind of rules-lawyering IMO.

 

Nothing stops you and your group from house ruling it if you think it makes more sense that way. It's not playing it RAW however, and what you consider "the worst kind of rules-lawyering" someone else would think of as an interesting and fun USR.

 

Poppycock. A unit that can re-roll to hit rolls does not roll a 1 to hit if the first dice they throw results in a 1, they only roll a 1 to hit if the re-roll is also a 1. p2 makes it very clear that the first score on a re-rolled dice simply does not count and the use of the word "immediately" in Seth's rule is doing nothing more than telling you that the hits inflicted by rolling a 1 to hit him take place outside of initiative order.

[Sanguinarian]

There's obviously nothing wrong with asking the question, but insisting that you get an extra hit from Seth for 1s which are then re-rolled and don't score 1s is the worst kind of rules-lawyering IMO.

 

Nothing stops you and your group from house ruling it if you think it makes more sense that way. It's not playing it RAW however, and what you consider "the worst kind of rules-lawyering" someone else would think of as an interesting and fun USR.

 

Poppycock. A unit that can re-roll to hit rolls does not roll a 1 to hit if the first dice they throw results in a 1, they only roll a 1 to hit if the re-roll is also a 1. p2 makes it very clear that the first score on a re-rolled dice simply does not count and the use of the word "immediately" in Seth's rule is doing nothing more than telling you that the hits inflicted by rolling a 1 to hit him take place outside of initiative order.

 

Let's not forget that in most cases Seth has already made his normal attacks/kills and these 'extras' are most likely against lower Initiative and Strenght attacks, so IMHO rerolls happen 1st, then Seth's pimp-slap(s)!!!

 

Now if that's settled, what happens if Seth hits, wounds and kills his attackers? Unless they're equal or greater Init they don't get their Wound rolls right? That's just so bad-ass!!!

[Blitzkrieg861]

I agree that the first roll doesn't count. Why would it? If you have a twin-linked assault cannon and get all 4 hits, you can't re-roll them to get 4+4 hits. The immediately portion of his rule is to show that 1) these attacks could kill people before they have a chance to wound him and 2) possibly allow strikes from seth outside his normal turn to attack in initiative order.

[librisrouge]

I believe that the first roll doesn't count (since the re-roll undoes it) but knife&fork is good to notice the importance of the immediately in the description. I'd love to see a GW thought map on the topic (not that such a thing exists) but I believe that they mean (RAW) that you do the FI attacks before any rolls to wound are taken (or saves, etc.) This would prevent the initial attacks from killing Seth before he can knee them in the groin or gouge their eyes.

[knife&fork]

I believe that the first roll doesn't count (since the re-roll undoes it) but knife&fork is good to notice the importance of the immediately in the description. I'd love to see a GW thought map on the topic (not that such a thing exists) but I believe that they mean (RAW) that you do the FI attacks before any rolls to wound are taken (or saves, etc.) This would prevent the initial attacks from killing Seth before he can knee them in the groin or gouge their eyes.

 

It doesn't matter if a model or unit is killed by FI, or Seth is killed. Everyone in the combat are still entitled to their attacks in order of initiative as normal. Of course in Seth's example that means he can sometimes attack above and below his normal I.

 

As for the reroll debacle I think it's important to remember that when the player attacking Seth is throwing those dice he's not rolling to see if Seth gets to suckerpunch him, that is a seperate process that works outside of the normal combat order.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Why would it be important to remember an irrelevant and inconsequential tangent?

[Sanguinarian]

I believe that the first roll doesn't count (since the re-roll undoes it) but knife&fork is good to notice the importance of the immediately in the description. I'd love to see a GW thought map on the topic (not that such a thing exists) but I believe that they mean (RAW) that you do the FI attacks before any rolls to wound are taken (or saves, etc.) This would prevent the initial attacks from killing Seth before he can knee them in the groin or gouge their eyes.

 

It doesn't matter if a model or unit is killed by FI, or Seth is killed. Everyone in the combat are still entitled to their attacks in order of initiative as normal. Of course in Seth's example that means he can sometimes attack above and below his normal I.

 

As for the reroll debacle I think it's important to remember that when the player attacking Seth is throwing those dice he's not rolling to see if Seth gets to suckerpunch him, that is a seperate process that works outside of the normal combat order.

 

Not really "separate," more so an extra in between step IMO. Please don't correct the details as much as the sequence.

 

1. Seth, SP and 1x10 Assault Squad charges out of LR or SR.

 

1a. Seth vs. enemy SC: 5 attacks w/Blood Reaver @ I6/S9 (+1 for FC).

~5 attacks/2.5 hits/1.25 wounds/1 kill.

 

2. Enemy IC attack backs > than Seth's squad's I5.

 

2a. Against Seth's squad resolve as normal.

 

2b. Against Seth: roll to hit; re-roll 1s; if any 1s on re-roll, Seth's FI takes place now at S4

 

3. Since Seth's SR doesn't specifically mention it, I would assume (:eek) both players roll to Wound simultaneously and resolve Saves accordingly. The enemy's hits still landed, whether before or the same time as Seth's headbutt/crotch-kick/etc.The dice show 'x' Hits and 'x' 1s: enemy rolls the 'hits' and Seth rolls the '1s.'

[JamesI]

Seth does not get +1 strength for Furious Charge. With his giant sword he is always S8, just like Corbulo and Astorath always fight at the same strength.

 

Other than that looks right.