Rick Priestley on the Missing Legions

[Midwest]

My search fu didn't turn this up, so my apologies if this has already been discussed, but tonight I listened to a rather long and interesting interview 40k Radio did with Rick Priestley last summer. The audio's bad, so I didn't quite catch all of it, but they asked him about the mystery legions, what the inspiration was, etc. The audio cut out at times, but besides the normal stuff about wanting it to always be a mystery, he states that the Marine legions were based on the Roman Legions and how some Roman legions were lost or erased from memory, and he seems to specifically suggest that the two missing legions did something Very Bad , but then subsequently were redeemed by the Emperor, but because the Very Bad Thing was so Very Bad, the Emperor's Mercy was to actually completely erase them from history so that future generations of humanity would never remember their crimes/failings/etc.

 

Not long later, he seems to contrast this with the Dark Angels, another legion that did a Very Bad Thing, but were allowed to continue on - the suggestion being that the civil war within the Dark Angels wasn't as bad as whatever the two missing legions were accused of, and thus even though the DA were allowed back into the fold ('forgiven', as it were :rolleyes: ), it wasn't bad enough to warrant 'redeeming' them by striking them from the history books.

 

I thought the redeeming bit was a neat twist, tho' I don't know how relevant/'official' RP's apparent original intent is to the current concept of them.

[Olis]

Seems an odd stance, the Traitor Legions did very bad things and yet aren't erased. Why erase a legion for redeeming themselves? Surely the redemption angle would be a good example for others to follow? :rolleyes:

[Midwest]

I don't know much about Roman History in this regards - my only knowledge of 'damned memories' being when they were erasing someone they actually hated - and the audio kept cutting out at this point, but it seemed like what he was suggesting is that what they did was so heinous that their legacy would always be marred by it, and as a result the actual 'merciful' thing to do (from a certain mindset) would be to erase them - that being never remembered is better than remembered for the wrong reason.

 

He doesn't go into the Traitor side of that. I guess the fluff reasoning would be the Emperor doesn't have the time during the Heresy, nor is capable afterwards, of issuing a similar decree against the Traitor Legions. Kinda like how in the fluff IG can't use Land Raiders because the Emperor temp-banned it during the Heresy to ensure Marine supplies and then never had a chance to rescind the order.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Seems an odd stance, the Traitor Legions did very bad things and yet aren't erased. Why erase a legion for redeeming themselves? Surely the redemption angle would be a good example for others to follow? :rolleyes:

 

They will be though. Once every member of them is dead, they'll be deleted from the records, and all information on them destroyed. While the Imperium wants the shame of them destroyed, they also cannot bear to put themselves at a disadvantage by destroying potentially helpful information on their enemies.

 

Plus, we often forget that, as players, we have information that only the higher levels of Imperial authority have access to the barest basics of. The basic citizens might know that some of the Primarchs fell, but not their names, or to what. We also know that in Blood Reaver, when Talos tells an Imperial citizen that he's a member of the VIII Legion, the citizen responds by saying there never was a VIII Legion.

 

So, the information we as players have is probably better than the information that the highest levels of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors specialising in hunting the Traitor Legions have. The average Imperial knows nothing more than probably a few religious passages told by their preachers that mention no specifics, and are so couched in metaphor, allegory and plain wrong facts, if even that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Seems an odd stance, the Traitor Legions did very bad things and yet aren't erased. Why erase a legion for redeeming themselves? Surely the redemption angle would be a good example for others to follow? :huh:

 

My take on that is whatever the 2 missing legions did was foul, but didnt impact a large enough area so were able to be wiped from history.

 

the traitor legions are too large to be erased, they were noticed by too many, and still have an impact to this day.

 

also, the Emperor isnt running the show. If he had stayed healthy through the heresy, he might have ordered them erased as well.

 

WLK

[Hrolf the Cunning]

It must also be considered the power or respect dynamic between the Legions and the rest of the Imperium at those times.

The 2 missing legions may have misbehaved at a time when Astartes were still held in such high regard that it was deemed worthwhile

to erase the records in order to preserve their image. Also at this time the Primarchs were unlikely be challenged by any administrative body or similar.

 

During the heresy, knowledge of the fall of such a huge proportion of the Astartes would have been almost universally known. Also in the period of recovery

after the heresy, the whole attitude of the establishment towards the Astartes would likely have changed significantly and without "protection" from the Big E

the early high lords would have seen it as a way to reduce the power of and opinion towards the remaining loyalists (by not deleting records pertaining to traitor legions).

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

They 'disappeared' during the Great Crusade. Perhaps on being reunited with the two primarchs, the Emperor found them lost to the cause - even more so than Angron and Cruze. Too debased/tainted by chaos to be trusted.

 

Recognising failure and suspecting that such weakness infected the geneseed of their Legions, he chose to eradicate the potential threat. One of the enjoyable blank spots in the fluff ;)

[A D-B]

Seems an odd stance, the Traitor Legions did very bad things and yet aren't erased. Why erase a legion for redeeming themselves? Surely the redemption angle would be a good example for others to follow? ;)

 

They will be though. Once every member of them is dead, they'll be deleted from the records, and all information on them destroyed. While the Imperium wants the shame of them destroyed, they also cannot bear to put themselves at a disadvantage by destroying potentially helpful information on their enemies.

 

Plus, we often forget that, as players, we have information that only the higher levels of Imperial authority have access to the barest basics of. The basic citizens might know that some of the Primarchs fell, but not their names, or to what. We also know that in Blood Reaver, when Talos tells an Imperial citizen that he's a member of the VIII Legion, the citizen responds by saying there never was a VIII Legion.

 

So, the information we as players have is probably better than the information that the highest levels of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors specialising in hunting the Traitor Legions have. The average Imperial knows nothing more than probably a few religious passages told by their preachers that mention no specifics, and are so couched in metaphor, allegory and plain wrong facts, if even that.

 

All true. And even moreso, it goes deeper.

 

Think of Earth. How much of several thousand years of history do we know of one single planet? We have names and a few myths/stories/legends/accounts of countless historical figures, and little more than that. Now think of all the cultures that record next to nothing about (or simply have no contact with) ancient civilisations. Does someone living the wilds of South America or Africa know who Cyrus the Great was? Do they know the word Babylon? That ignorance applies to every culture in the world. There's an infinity of lore we just don't know, and a huge amount we piece together, surely getting a lot of it wrong.

 

In a few thousand years of civilised history, we can barely even imagine everything we don't know - and it's because we don't know the scale of it that we simply can't imagine what we're ignorant about.

 

Now apply that not to one world and 4,000-6,000 years, but to a million worlds and 10,000 years. Most of the Imperium won't even know or care that Horus existed. They won't know what a primarch is. Most will even probably consider the Adeptus Astartes to be a myth, if they've even heard of them at all. Think how many religions we have on one world that worship the basic concept of "one god". The Imperium will have that across its millions of worlds, all of them different just slightly in the observance of the Imperial Creed, so that many will barely even resemble one another.

 

That's the reality of 40K. The scope, the scale, the sheer span of the setting is absolutely breathtaking.

 

It's something a lot of people forget in topics like these. There are probably countless worlds that worship the Emperor as a Sun God, or the manifestation of the spirits of their ancestors, or an aspect of the souls of every machine, or simply the ethereal presence that makes the crops grow every year. The Golden Throne. The Space Marines. The Astronomican. The Traitor Legions. Daemons. Chaos. These are words and concepts that just don't exist to many, many Imperial citizens, and those that are aware of them won't know a fraction of what we do, as readers of the rulebooks.

[JamesI]

Well said, ADB.

 

As to the fate of the missing legions, personally I hope we never find out. Leave it to our speculation with random hints once in a while (which often contradict other random hints). Its just one of the fun mysteries of the 40k universe that would lose a little if we knew the whole story.

[Dosjetka]

Well said, ADB.

 

As to the fate of the missing legions, personally I hope we never find out. Leave it to our speculation with random hints once in a while (which often contradict other random hints). Its just one of the fun mysteries of the 40k universe that would lose a little if we knew the whole story.

Well said AD-B and JamesI.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself :P

 

Ludovic

[Midwest]

Most of the Imperium won't even know or care that Horus existed. They won't know what a primarch is. Most will even probably consider the Adeptus Astartes to be a myth, if they've even heard of them at all.

I think you're spot on with most things, but I'd disagree with these points. I know real world examples are dangerous, but that'd be akin to being a (modern) Christian and having no clue/concept of Satan, or even just being a person in a "Christian" society (even if you yourself aren't one) and having absolute ignorance of that. Horus is such a part of the Emperor's fate and the origins of the Imperial Creed that some concept or image of him would be known to even the most casual or cynic of Imperial citizen.

 

I mean, yes, some complete primitive inhabitant of a death-world likely knows nothing, sure, but any citizen with even the remotest exposure to a Ministorum street preacher, propaganda art, or Dark Millennium News Network app for their iServoSkull has an inkling of Horus, the primarchs, and the Astartes. Accuracy may vary, but the general knowledge is there.

 

I also agree that the sheer vastness of a galactic setting is often underappreciated in 40k's mythos and fiction, and there's always been the acknowledgment like with Fenris that for some subjects the Astartes are little more than semi-mythical 'sky warriors', with no real concept of the greater reality off-planet that they represent, but I think way more often than not, Imperial worlds are interconnected enough that transmission of shared cultural values like the Imperial Creed are a bit more effective than games of telephone or messages in a bottle. :D

[A D-B]

Most of the Imperium won't even know or care that Horus existed. They won't know what a primarch is. Most will even probably consider the Adeptus Astartes to be a myth, if they've even heard of them at all.

I think you're spot on with most things, but I'd disagree with these points. I know real world examples are dangerous, but that'd be akin to being a (modern) Christian and having no clue/concept of Satan, or even just being a person in a "Christian" society (even if you yourself aren't one) and having absolute ignorance of that. Horus is such a part of the Emperor's fate and the origins of the Imperial Creed that some concept or image of him would be known to even the most casual or cynic of Imperial citizen.

 

I mean, yes, some complete primitive inhabitant of a death-world likely knows nothing, sure, but any citizen with even the remotest exposure to a Ministorum street preacher, propaganda art, or Dark Millennium News Network app for their iServoSkull has an inkling of Horus, the primarchs, and the Astartes. Accuracy may vary, but the general knowledge is there.

 

I also agree that the sheer vastness of a galactic setting is often underappreciated in 40k's mythos and fiction, and there's always been the acknowledgment like with Fenris that for some subjects the Astartes are little more than semi-mythical 'sky warriors', with no real concept of the greater reality off-planet that they represent, but I think way more often than not, Imperial worlds are interconnected enough that transmission of shared cultural values like the Imperial Creed are a bit more effective than games of telephone or messages in a bottle. :D

 

Imperial worlds really aren't connected in that sense, though. Most, not all, are connected by trade, but not by a galactic internet. Astropathy isn't a cell phone call to another ship, world, or star system. It's a bunch of scrambled dreams in the minds of a psychically gifted few, who may be considered insane, or may be contracted by the Imperial Powers That Be on that world, and listened to. There's no guarantee the dreams are interpreted the right way, or this particular voice in the astropath's head is one worth listening to over the others, and so on.

 

The most reliable way to get a message to another planet is to take it there yourself. That baroque, lethal truth - coupled with the savagely unpredictable technology - is one of the main points of fundamental awesomeness behind 40K.

 

Think how long it takes information - accurate information - to reach people in times of war, on one single planet. Sometimes, it never happens. Often, it's a version of events, or simply delayed by any kind of interference, bureaucracy, propaganda, technological failings, or whatever else. Now apply that not to one world, but to a galaxy that can't be reliably crossed, that spans countless thousands of worlds.

 

As for Horus... Well, it's 10,000 years. And you're assuming the "Imperial Creed" (as if "Christianity" or "monotheism" is one singular thing) even mentions him. On some worlds? Sure, maybe. On others? It won't get a mention in: the Ecclesiarchy cares that people worship the God-Emperor, but not how. Hence, the Sun God examples, and manifestation of ancestor-spirits or seasonal storms, and so on. In most cases, even the more accurate worlds just consider him "A godly guy who loves us all" with no concept of his past.

 

And even then, you've got billions of souls in the Ecclesiarchy adapting the Imperial Creed for local history, relevance, cultural significance, and just getting it wrong through 10,000 years of history. Look at how much even monotheistic religions have changed in a few thousand years on a single world.

 

On one single world, we can't decide how to worship a single god. Across a million worlds? Multiply that by infinity.

 

And even that assumes the Traitor Legions are even left in Imperial history, which there're plenty of suggestions to show they're not - the Imperium is hilariously keen on removing all evidence of dissent, and so on.

 

Also, it may come across poorly sometimes, but the "Antichrist" of the setting is Abaddon. All of his fluff states it - his is the name whispered in terror, and his final return heralds the apocalypse. And even if most worlds have heard of him (they won't have, of course), few of them will have the exact same mythology about him, let alone the same actual lore.

 

EDIT: I'll add that while everyone's perspective on 40K is as right and wrong as they want it to be, this is something that's come up specifically a few times in meetings with the IP department, and it's a subject dear to my heart that I've enjoyed them explaining to me. Hence all the wordage.

[Midwest]

LOL, I read your blog and lots of your postings, so your arguments are pretty well-versed to me by now as well. ;-)

 

My point is that the 40k-lore itself has always presented a fairly top-down mono-cultural Imperium. Yes, some citizens are Space Beduoin, Space Mongols, Space Vikings, Space Akiras, Space Pirates, or Space Punks, but if GW's IP peeps are wanting a much more significantly fractured humanity within that collective net, they need to do a better job of that in their 'main' gaming materials, because it's almost always the same Imperial mentality sat within whatever random pop culture archetype they're using for the bodies.

 

While Abaddon may be the living Public Enemy #1, Horus has always seemed more like a Benedict Arnold or Guy Fawkes/more appropos British example - yes most Americans don't really fear Arnold or even know a whole lot about him or even think of him more than once in a while, at that, but he's still a part of American "pop history", as it were, and I would expect humans in the 41st millennium to still have such figures. And even without 4g wi-fi in much of the galaxy, there's been 10,000 years for the image of Horus (which would not come from one point but from multiple points throughout the Imperium where he was already known) to disseminate throughout the Imperium.

 

Put another way, as diverse as earth is, stop and consider how likely it is that a startling - perhaps depressing - number of people know who Michael Jackson or Michael Jordan is? And all they did was entertain peeps, not threaten the very foundation of civilization itself (well, maybe...).

 

BTW, just my .02 cents. I'm certainly am not trying to establish my POV as canon, only that GW has some esplainin' to do if they're suddenly wanting a less Austro-Hungarian, more Balkanized Imperium.

[Olis]

My point was more to do with the redemption angle on things, rather than "why are the Traitors not erased". Redemption seemed illogical if the result is to obliterate from the records any chance of a 'moral' story. It sounds like something thrown out there to further muddy the waters. But, uh, I see the discussion has veered well away from that angle, so... I'll get my coat. :D

[A D-B]

BTW, just my .02 cents.

 

In that light, I think my 2c are pretty close to yours. It's one of those things where it's impossible(?) to be objectively right, and all comes down to perspective (including those of us who sit in on meetings about it).

 

So, naw, I don't really disagree with you. That angle gels well with my personal perspective on things.

[Midwest]

BTW, just my .02 cents.

 

In that light, I think my 2c are pretty close to yours. It's one of those things where it's impossible(?) to be objectively right, and all comes down to perspective (including those of us who sit in on meetings about it).

 

So, naw, I don't really disagree with you. That angle gels well with my personal perspective on things.

Aren't you British? I think your 2 pence are worth a bit more than my 2 cents these days. ;)

 

BTW, can't wait for your next NL book. I'm already using the first two as 'required' reading for my Black Crusade RPG campaign.

[dragon950]

Except for records kept by founding chapters or high ranking members in the Imperium, information about the traitor legions were erased from the Imperium. Now unoffical records, stories, or rumors about them persist, but all other information was erased because the High Lords don't wont people to know what really happened. Also look at the Soul Drinkers books, from one act they became traitors in the eyes of the Imperium and were erased from the libraries. No matter what good they do they will still be wiped out and not becuase most of them are mutants.

 

As far as why the two Legions went bad, my best guess is that they allied with demons to do something good which turned bad. Or they attempted to modify their bodies or change their gene code like Fabius Bile was doing.

[dustermaker]

It has been quite a while since I have read Lord of the Night, but wasn't Sahaal very suprised when the Inquisitor knew his Legion? As stated before, the high ranking people of the Imperium know about the Traitors. To me Sahaal being suprised someone recognized his colors means it is comon place for the Traitors to be stricken from the records.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

It certainly does make you wonder what those two Legions did that was so bad. There's only really a 100 year span, too, in which all this stuff happens, so it would've had to have been something that happened relatively quickly (galactically speaking)...and possibly had ramifications that would've been worse than what the HH did to the Imperium.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It certainly does make you wonder what those two Legions did that was so bad. There's only really a 100 year span, too, in which all this stuff happens, so it would've had to have been something that happened relatively quickly (galactically speaking)...and possibly had ramifications that would've been worse than what the HH did to the Imperium.

 

i dont think it had to be something bad, just somethign bad but contained to a small area.

 

if its contained to a small area its easy to purge. something like the HH was simply too massive to immediately purge.

 

WLK

[AGPO]

My point is that the 40k-lore itself has always presented a fairly top-down mono-cultural Imperium.

 

This is why I love the black library. Providing gaming materials for the whole Imperium is obviously impossible for a company like Games Workshop, and would make very little sense. The actual tabletop game only explores a very narrow strip of the 40K universe. If you want to know aboutn individual worlds, cultures and the day to day experience of life in the imperium you nedd a way to branch out.

[Kodanshi]

It’s odd in the sense that The Space Wolves pretty much beat the Thousand Sons for their sorcerous ways… yet this wasn’t enough to purge the Legion from the records — so what the warp could have happened to the other two Legions to actually have them expunged from all records? And have Primarchs not even talk about them?

[Lorenzen]

just to add something to the debate..

 

Put another way, as diverse as earth is, stop and consider how likely it is that a startling - perhaps depressing - number of people know who Michael Jackson or Michael Jordan is?

 

now as diverse as earth is.. think of the cultures in the world where people dont know of these people, because theyre out there.. so even on a planet where everyone is theoretically connected via telephones, pop culture and the like.. there are people who have literally no clue about this stuff.

 

in 40k information tends to be closely guarded or stuck in administratum funded purgatory.. afterall ciaphas cain is still on active duty and he's dead and buried..

[Lord_Caerolion]

It’s odd in the sense that The Space Wolves pretty much beat the Thousand Sons for their sorcerous ways… yet this wasn’t enough to purge the Legion from the records — so what the warp could have happened to the other two Legions to actually have them expunged from all records? And have Primarchs not even talk about them?

 

As has been mentioned, the Thousand Sons haven't been deleted because the purge wasn't successful. Whatever the missing Legions did, it was bad, and every member of those Legions was killed, without question. The Thousand Sons still exist in records because they're still out there, as with the other Traitor Legions. If Russ had managed to destroy all the Thousand Sons, they would have been deleted.

[Midwest]

It certainly does make you wonder what those two Legions did that was so bad. There's only really a 100 year span, too, in which all this stuff happens, so it would've had to have been something that happened relatively quickly (galactically speaking)...and possibly had ramifications that would've been worse than what the HH did to the Imperium.

I think it's probably important not to assume a similar standard applies to both situations.

 

I'm rereading the HH series from the start, and there's (albeit heavy-handed foreshadowing) references to how unthinkable Astartes-on-Astartes war is to the Legions at the time the HH series opens up (about 200 years into the crusade). Furthermore, according to DL, whatever happened to the two missing legions already occurs by the time the Emperor finds Corax, which seems to imply it happens fairly early on in the GC.

 

As such, what the two legions did (and I don't know if it's still valid lore, but there's been at least one mention somewhere that the legions' fates were 'separate' and 'different' tragedies) may not have been 'worse' than heresy, or even equivalent - if the mindset at the time was that the Primarchs and their legions were unquestionable in their loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperial project, even a relatively 'lesser' crime or sin or other issue may have still been considered so beyond the pale that extermination and censorship were seen as appropriate response.

 

And again, the original legions' fates came at a time when the Emperor could enact such orders. Whatever orders may or may not have been issued regarding the Traitor Legions after the Heresy would have likely come from elsewhere given the Emperor's condition.