Rick Priestley on the Missing Legions

[Aegnor]

It's in The Lightning Tower, and it doesn't actually definitely say they were united or anything specific as to what happened. It's something along the lines of "their separate tragedies had seemed like abberations, but now Dorn wouldn't if they weren't warnings.". That can imply anything, and specifies nothing. :D

 

And there's been nothing more definite since then I'm aware of regarding timeline of when Primarchs were recovered, when the "tragedies" happened, and when legions were destroyed - apart from *maybe* the inaccurate rumor derided in the text as inaccurate in The First Heretic.

[Conn Eremon]

It's in The Lightning Tower, and it doesn't actually definitely say they were united or anything specific as to what happened. It's something along the lines of "their separate tragedies had seemed like abberations, but now Dorn wouldn't if they weren't warnings.". That can imply anything, and specifies nothing. :lol:

 

And there's been nothing more definite since then I'm aware of regarding timeline of when Primarchs were recovered, when the "tragedies" happened, and when legions were destroyed - apart from *maybe* the inaccurate rumor derided in the text as inaccurate in The First Heretic.

 

Not united together, just united with their Legions. Meaning all twenty Legions found their Primarchs. Going from that quote, among others, it does seem clear that whatever happened with those two Primarchs, it happened at different times and for different reasons. They had "separate tragedies," one was "lost" and the other "damned," and there was something about these tragedies that, at least to Dorn, had some connection or similarity to the Horus Heresy, unless he's referring to some other situation going on in that current context. That's what we know. We also think or believe it likely that the Space Wolves played a prominent role in the conclusion of one or both of these tragedies, and we know that it's rumored or joked about in-universe, at least with certain Word Bearer Legionnaires, that the Ultramarines took in loyal survivors. Considering that the author of the last bit has outright stated that he regrets writing that rumor, it's more than likely that it won't come out to be true, unless another BL author picks up the thread and decides to just go with it anyways.

[Aegnor]

I meant united with their legion, not the two missing legions united with each other. It doesn't have to be that the Primarchs were united with their legion - what do you do with a legion when you've had to execute their Primarch upon finding him, for instance. More interesting and more likely they HAD been united with their legion, but like almost everything re the missing Two, not definite.

 

Maybe the two plinths were empty as they never had statues made, not because they were made then removed.

[Conn Eremon]

I meant united with their legion, not the two missing legions united with each other. It doesn't have to be that the Primarchs were united with their legion - what do you do with a legion when you've had to execute their Primarch upon finding him, for instance. More interesting and more likely they HAD been united with their legion, but like almost everything re the missing Two, not definite.

 

Maybe the two plinths were empty as they never had statues made, not because they were made then removed.

 

The plinths were not empty, just shrouded. That was the real kicker, the fact that with just a whisk of a hand one could look upon the face of one of these Primarchs. And it is said that all the Primarchs were united with their Legions. So the missing two were united with their Legions as well. That's definite.

[MonSTeR]

Also, it may come across poorly sometimes, but the "Antichrist" of the setting is Abaddon. All of his fluff states it - his is the name whispered in terror, and his final return heralds the apocalypse. And even if most worlds have heard of him (they won't have, of course), few of them will have the exact same mythology about him, let alone the same actual lore.

 

EDIT: I'll add that while everyone's perspective on 40K is as right and wrong as they want it to be, this is something that's come up specifically a few times in meetings with the IP department, and it's a subject dear to my heart that I've enjoyed them explaining to me. Hence all the wordage.

 

The other important thing is that that the folklore of the 40K universe is mutable. It has been re-written, albeit to a decreasing degree, with each new edition of the game and update of the fluff in the publications. just because in THIS edition something is black, doesn't mean in the next edition that it won't be dark grey and so on. Things have changed to an incredible degree over the last 25 years and things will continue to change. A-D-B may have access to the current and immediate future plans for the mythos, but I'd wager that there are circles within circles as to who decides what will happen in the next revision of the plot arcs.

 

With regards to the Abaddon being the "Baddie". This may be the case in the gameworld after all he's the living incarnation of Chaos, but GW has spent so much time and effort in publishing the HH series of books, that a lot of people care a lot less about 40K than they do 30K so to speak and they lose sight of what is 40K and what is 30K and how the galaxy has changed in those 10K years. The 30K series is fleshed out a LOT more than the contenporary game world and that's something GW needs to address in order to reinforce their own fluff, unless of course, there are plans within plans :)

[Orphus]

Seems an odd stance, the Traitor Legions did very bad things and yet aren't erased. Why erase a legion for redeeming themselves? Surely the redemption angle would be a good example for others to follow? :P

 

They will be though. Once every member of them is dead, they'll be deleted from the records, and all information on them destroyed. While the Imperium wants the shame of them destroyed, they also cannot bear to put themselves at a disadvantage by destroying potentially helpful information on their enemies.

 

Plus, we often forget that, as players, we have information that only the higher levels of Imperial authority have access to the barest basics of. The basic citizens might know that some of the Primarchs fell, but not their names, or to what. We also know that in Blood Reaver, when Talos tells an Imperial citizen that he's a member of the VIII Legion, the citizen responds by saying there never was a VIII Legion.

 

So, the information we as players have is probably better than the information that the highest levels of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors specialising in hunting the Traitor Legions have. The average Imperial knows nothing more than probably a few religious passages told by their preachers that mention no specifics, and are so couched in metaphor, allegory and plain wrong facts, if even that.

 

All true. And even moreso, it goes deeper.

 

Think of Earth. How much of several thousand years of history do we know of one single planet? We have names and a few myths/stories/legends/accounts of countless historical figures, and little more than that. Now think of all the cultures that record next to nothing about (or simply have no contact with) ancient civilisations. Does someone living the wilds of South America or Africa know who Cyrus the Great was? Do they know the word Babylon? That ignorance applies to every culture in the world. There's an infinity of lore we just don't know, and a huge amount we piece together, surely getting a lot of it wrong.

 

In a few thousand years of civilised history, we can barely even imagine everything we don't know - and it's because we don't know the scale of it that we simply can't imagine what we're ignorant about.

 

Now apply that not to one world and 4,000-6,000 years, but to a million worlds and 10,000 years. Most of the Imperium won't even know or care that Horus existed. They won't know what a primarch is. Most will even probably consider the Adeptus Astartes to be a myth, if they've even heard of them at all. Think how many religions we have on one world that worship the basic concept of "one god". The Imperium will have that across its millions of worlds, all of them different just slightly in the observance of the Imperial Creed, so that many will barely even resemble one another.

 

That's the reality of 40K. The scope, the scale, the sheer span of the setting is absolutely breathtaking.

 

It's something a lot of people forget in topics like these. There are probably countless worlds that worship the Emperor as a Sun God, or the manifestation of the spirits of their ancestors, or an aspect of the souls of every machine, or simply the ethereal presence that makes the crops grow every year. The Golden Throne. The Space Marines. The Astronomican. The Traitor Legions. Daemons. Chaos. These are words and concepts that just don't exist to many, many Imperial citizens, and those that are aware of them won't know a fraction of what we do, as readers of the rulebooks.

 

 

Well said, ADB.

 

As to the fate of the missing legions, personally I hope we never find out. Leave it to our speculation with random hints once in a while (which often contradict other random hints). Its just one of the fun mysteries of the 40k universe that would lose a little if we knew the whole story.

 

This and this^

 

And I had a thought. What if THQ/Relic didn't invent the Blood Ravens? Like they were an original concept chapter that just didn't make the cut. So not wanting to favour a chapter in their upcoming games they give the Blood Ravens some room.

[Orphus]

So why there are NO legions based on the two greatest cultures (based on longevity and influence), Indian and Chinese?

and before some ignoramus posts, Mongolian is NOT Chinese

or even African? where humanity basically originates?

or Mayans etc etc

Why don't you tell us then? Give us reasons, I shouldn't have to justify your argument for you.

Because of what they represented during those time periods, and that which they represented, led to a distinct design flavour for some of the legions. All the cultures that have chapters/legions based off them have...a niche. The reason the creation of the White Scars and their Primarch Jaghati Khan was based on the Ghengis Khan Mongols could be due to the Mongol's phenomenal, fast moving armies. This trait so to speak fitted the need for a speedy SM legion and gave inspiration towards their top commander to boot. The reason I can't think of Chinese, African, or Mayan examples is because I really can't see anything in them that would benefit a legion of Space Marines in the 41st Millennium. Taking this from a fluff perspective, the Emperor had been on Earth for tens of thousands of Years and sees the best parts in these cultures that he could use in the creation of his sons.

 

The way the Mayans operated is more suited to a death cult then SM legion.

 

:EDIT: This is the last time I'm reading one of these topics. Far too many spoilers being thrown around casually and it's starting to bug me. The spoiler warning insert special item is there for a reason folks. :P

[A D-B]

Think of Earth. How much of several thousand years of history do we know of one single planet? We have names and a few myths/stories/legends/accounts of countless historical figures, and little more than that. Now think of all the cultures that record next to nothing about (or simply have no contact with) ancient civilisations. Does someone living the wilds of South America or Africa know who Cyrus the Great was? Do they know the word Babylon? That ignorance applies to every culture in the world. There's an infinity of lore we just don't know, and a huge amount we piece together, surely getting a lot of it wrong.

 

In a few thousand years of civilised history, we can barely even imagine everything we don't know - and it's because we don't know the scale of it that we simply can't imagine what we're ignorant about.

 

Now apply that not to one world and 4,000-6,000 years, but to a million worlds and 10,000 years. Most of the Imperium won't even know or care that Horus existed. They won't know what a primarch is. Most will even probably consider the Adeptus Astartes to be a myth, if they've even heard of them at all. Think how many religions we have on one world that worship the basic concept of "one god". The Imperium will have that across its millions of worlds, all of them different just slightly in the observance of the Imperial Creed, so that many will barely even resemble one another.

 

That's the reality of 40K. The scope, the scale, the sheer span of the setting is absolutely breathtaking.

 

It's something a lot of people forget in topics like these. There are probably countless worlds that worship the Emperor as a Sun God, or the manifestation of the spirits of their ancestors, or an aspect of the souls of every machine, or simply the ethereal presence that makes the crops grow every year. The Golden Throne. The Space Marines. The Astronomican. The Traitor Legions. Daemons. Chaos. These are words and concepts that just don't exist to many, many Imperial citizens, and those that are aware of them won't know a fraction of what we do, as readers of the rulebooks.

 

So why there are NO legions based on the two greatest cultures (based on longevity and influence), Indian and Chinese?

and before some ignoramus posts, Mongolian is NOT Chinese

or even African? where humanity basically originates?

or Mayans etc etc

 

That has literally nothing to do with what I said.

 

It seems like a separate grievance entirely unrelated to the point I made. It's a great grievance, mind you. I agree with it completely.

[MadDoc]

The plinths were not empty, just shrouded. That was the real kicker, the fact that with just a whisk of a hand one could look upon the face of one of these Primarchs. And it is said that all the Primarchs were united with their Legions. So the missing two were united with their Legions as well. That's definite.

No, the Traitor Primarchs statues were covered, while the statues of Primarchs of the Lost Legions had been removed from their plinths sometime much earlier.

 

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for along time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh.

For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

As you can see by the use of the word 'vacant' in paragraph 7 and the turn of phrase 'also be removed' in paragraph 8, the 2nd and 11th plinths were in fact empty.

[Aegnor]

Ah, thanks for the quote - I only have the audiobook version, so was going from memory.

[Conn Eremon]

The plinths were not empty, just shrouded. That was the real kicker, the fact that with just a whisk of a hand one could look upon the face of one of these Primarchs. And it is said that all the Primarchs were united with their Legions. So the missing two were united with their Legions as well. That's definite.

No, the Traitor Primarchs statues were covered, while the statues of Primarchs of the Lost Legions had been removed from their plinths sometime much earlier.

 

The second and eleventh plinths had been vacant for along time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

Sigismund had urged that the effigies of the traitors also be removed from the Investiary. He had offered to do the work himself. This, Dorn recalled, had made the Emperor laugh.

For the time being, the traitors had been shrouded. Their towering, draped forms seemed like phantoms in the blue darkness.

As you can see by the use of the word 'vacant' in paragraph 7 and the turn of phrase 'also be removed' in paragraph 8, the 2nd and 11th plinths were in fact empty.

 

I wasn't talking about the Lightning Tower, as I don't do audiobooks. I was referencing other fluff that listed them as shrouded. If that came after them, then it could count as it being retconned to the point you're making. As I'm not exactly certain on the where or when on my sources, and I'm too damn lazy to bother searching, I'll concede the point.

 

Unless there are other quotes in direct opposition to what I said, though, I'm still sure that I'm right about all twenty Legions meeting up with all twenty Primarchs. Of course, that's not to say that some of the theories of a Primarch never leaving his homeworld aren't true. The First Legion encountered the Lion before anyone else. It's possible one of these two Legions made planetfall, found their Primarch, but when the Emperor got there the Primarch was decreed unsuitable for whatever reason.

 

Hell, maybe they found a pacifist Primarch that utterly refused to fight. I know we already had that with Lorgar for an extant, but imagine a Primarch who could never be persuaded to commit any form of violence, period.

[MadDoc]

I wasn't talking about the Lightning Tower, as I don't do audiobooks.

I wasn't referencing the audiobook version, hence the page and paragraph numbers in the reference, but then again not everybody was lucky enough to get a copy of the chapbook.

 

I was referencing other fluff that listed them as shrouded. If that came after them, then it could count as it being retconned to the point you're making. As I'm not exactly certain on the where or when on my sources, and I'm too damn lazy to bother searching, I'll concede the point.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't any other source for information regarding the Primarch statues in the Investiary, The Lightning Tower contains the only reference to them.

[Conn Eremon]

I wasn't talking about the Lightning Tower, as I don't do audiobooks.

I wasn't referencing the audiobook version, hence the page and paragraph numbers in the reference, but then again not everybody was lucky enough to get a copy of the chapbook.

 

I was referencing other fluff that listed them as shrouded. If that came after them, then it could count as it being retconned to the point you're making. As I'm not exactly certain on the where or when on my sources, and I'm too damn lazy to bother searching, I'll concede the point.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't any other source for information regarding the Primarch statues in the Investiary, The Lightning Tower contains the only reference to them.

 

Maybe it's not the same area? I don't know what an Investiary is, the room with the covered missing Primarchs was just referred to as a hall. I'm pretty sure it was in Collected Visions if anyone wants to be bothered to check.

[Lucifer216]

Personally, my favourite pet theory about the missing legion is that one or both of their primarchs actually grew up to adulthood on a world dominated by a xenos culture. While they were sufficiently impressed by the Emperor to accept leadership of Space Marine Legion(s), they eventually were forced to choose between loyalty to the Emperor and loyalty to the world and culture of their birth, in a Last Samurai/Avatar sort of way...

[Sun Grilled Bacon]

People in history get either more famous or less known in the years after. Infamous dictators and warlords seem to be remembered more often, so I would assume the story of Abaddon and his 13 Black Crusades would have spread across the worlds of the Imperium, unless the Imperium/Inquisition did not want knowledge of Chaotic powers to be revealed to the majority of Imperial Citizens.

 

But I've just remembered that the 1st Battle of Armageddon was covered up by the Inquisition...

 

On the topic of the 2 missing legions, I would think one possibility would be mutation. A fast acting mutation that completely ruined the two legions and their primarchs.

 

Pure speculation is bliss~