Son of Rawl Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 An interesting topic has popped up in another thread regarding who would, or could take over command of the traitors if Horus was killed before the Seige of Terra, too much effort and time had been invested at this point for anyone to disband or retreat so who would you think could lead the traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Lion El'Jonson. The chance to be supreme dalek over all mankind would finally get him off the fence. he was sat on. What? Just saying what you're all thinking.... ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I'd imagine some kind of council or something of that sort consisting of all of the primarchs. It would crumble, the assault on Terra would fail. I'm sure one or more of the traitors would have been killed on Terra. And the rest of them would flee to the Eye of Terror. Business as usual. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Perturabo. Only remaining primarch with a semblance of tactics and strategy. Not that he could lead or anything. The rest of them is just a mess. I didn't put Alpharius since with Horus gone, Cabal's plan is no longer relevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Carmine Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 An interesting idea, though my first thoughts on it lead me to conclude that there would be a succession crisis that would cause the Traitors forces to fragment, or even lead to war within their ranks. I think that without Horus to keep them in check both Angron and Curze would independently take their Legions off on their own crusades, Angron seeking battle unleashed from the restrictions placed upon him, and Curze would continue his own war until his death much as he did in the original timeline after the Battle of Terra. Mortarion, Fulgrim and Perturabo all strike me as being proud individuals who would seek the title of Warmaster for themselves, which would lead to them squabbling amongst themselves. Lorgar and Alpharius are to my mind the most invested in the Heresy succeeding, Lorgar to enlighten mankind, and Alpharius to prevent Chaos from winning, so I think they would seek to bring about consensus on who the new Warmaster would be rather than try and take the title for themselves. Either a successor would be named and the war would continue, or the legions would assault one another trying to gain supremacy. I think Magnus, being the least willing convert to my mind would see discretion being the better part of valour and would return to the Planet of the Sorcerers with his Legion. As for the Sons of Horus, I believe Abaddon would take control of the legion, but would not even be considered as a successor to the Warmaster’s title. This is long before his various pacts with the Chaos Gods, so as exceptional as he is, to the other primarchs he is still 'just' another Astartes at this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I don't think the traitors would even make it to Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus de Mortalis Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 The three traitor primarchs left that I think people could follow would be Fulgrim, Mortation, and Lorgar, due to their reputations and leadership abilities. Angron is crazy, Magnus is too introverted, Konrad Curze is creepy, Alpharius is sneaky, and Perturabo gets bullied. Of course the ones who I think would have the greatest probability of leading the traitor legions to victory would be Perturabo and Alpharius as they seem to be the best generals and don't make the same tactical blunders based on their emotions like all the rest of them seem to repeatedly do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allfather1 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Angron and Fulgrim would be out of the question. Angron is a bloodthirsty butcher and will not be able to give the traitors the leadership and unity they requir. Fulgrim is possesed, so the primarchs would probably be loath to follow him. Mortarion seems to like a good battlefield commander but would not have the charisma and ability to lead the Traitor legions. Curze was already on his way to insanity. Alpharius seems like the obvious chose because he has no allegiance to one Chaos God. So the Word Bearers wouldn't be annoyed about that. He seems to have no quarrel with any of the traitor primarchs and he probably has spies in almost every legion (both traitor and loyal) or at least has some in their crews. Lorgar would probably be despised by the other primarchs as weak (especially by Curze) because he needed to be saved form Corax Magnus would probably not get the support from Mortarion and Angron because of their dislike of Psykers. Perturabo seems like the ideal commander for the traitor legions because of his abilty to put reason before emotion and because his legion kept supplies coming their way. But his coldness would make it hard for him to gain enough support from his brothers. So I think that either Alpharius or Perturabo would be next in command if Horus died before they got to Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I can see it now Perturabo: ”...and that is how we will take the imperial palace, with only 11% casualties amongst the astartes, 15% in the legio and 5% in the fleet. So what do you think?” Interview panel: “That is very impressive. You show a lot of detailed planning and a commitment to the job.” P: “So does that mean I get the job of warmaster?” IP: “No” P: “Why not?” IP: “Well to be truthful you are incredible boring. We are giving the job to Fulgrim! Look at him he is brimming with excitement and has such drive, look at him dance over there! We are choosing him to be warmaster.” Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 the warmaster doesn't need to be the best general, he needs to be the most charismatic so the best generals will still join his cause Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Angron and Fulgrim would be out of the question. Angron is a bloodthirsty butcher and will not be able to give the traitors the leadership and unity they requir.Fulgrim is possesed, so the primarchs would probably be loath to follow him. Mortarion seems to like a good battlefield commander but would not have the charisma and ability to lead the Traitor legions. Curze was already on his way to insanity. Alpharius seems like the obvious chose because he has no allegiance to one Chaos God. So the Word Bearers wouldn't be annoyed about that. He seems to have no quarrel with any of the traitor primarchs and he probably has spies in almost every legion (both traitor and loyal) or at least has some in their crews. Lorgar would probably be despised by the other primarchs as weak (especially by Curze) because he needed to be saved form Corax Magnus would probably not get the support from Mortarion and Angron because of their dislike of Psykers. Perturabo seems like the ideal commander for the traitor legions because of his abilty to put reason before emotion and because his legion kept supplies coming their way. But his coldness would make it hard for him to gain enough support from his brothers. So I think that either Alpharius or Perturabo would be next in command if Horus died before they got to Terra. Angron wouldn't make a very good choice although he'd probably still try to take the mantle of the warmaster. He wanted it in the past and was pretty peved when Horus got it. Actually most of the Primarchs don't even notice Fulgrim is possessed. Really only two other Primarchs besides Horus knew and that was due to their psychic gifts. I think Lorgar or Perturabo would be the best replacement choices for Horus. Perturabo doesn't have enough background info yet from the HH series though to be fully judged. Lorgar on the other hand fully makes up for his humilation at the hands of Corax. He's definitely charasmatic enough although tactically gifted I'm not so sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Who has led them since he died? There's your answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 It's doubtful the other Primarchs would have allowed Abbadon to lead them. Their egos were pretty big. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I forgot about Abbadon. I was more getting at the fact that nobody has effectively led a unified force since Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broker Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 No other primarch could have led the Heresy, apart from maybe Sanguinius. Horus was irreplacable because all his brothers respected, and reluctantly or not, accepted him as warmaster. Lorgar was despised for his perceived weakness by many of his brothers. Alpharius was almost certainly not trusted by the other primarchs, and his style of war could easily clash with the likes of Angron and Fulgrim. Perturabo seems to be quite a vindictive individual, judging by his relationship with Dorn, and I could see him alienating any primarch who he perceived to fail him. Not going to bother saying why the aligned primarchs weren't up to the task. Sons of Horus would also have a bee in their bonnet about playing second fiddle in the heretic forces, and this would no doubt result in clashes with their fellow heretics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I think once the other Primarchs realized Lorgar's real strength after his pilgrimage into the warp their opinions of him would've changed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I think once the other Primarchs realized Lorgar's real strength after his pilgrimage into the warp their opinions of him would've changed. Sure he became bolder and stronger but still he's still an overglorified preacher zealot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I think once the other Primarchs realized Lorgar's real strength after his pilgrimage into the warp their opinions of him would've changed. Sure he became bolder and stronger but still he's still an overglorified preacher zealot. but who else could do it? alpharius? don't make me laugh, he's the "little brother" not the one that leads angron? i would be suprised if he even has a vision what to do. perturabo? i believe it was said he wasn't really popular with the other primarchs? sure he's actually the one most likely to make the assault on terra succesfull but he just lacks the charisma to make the other primarchs join his side now who leaves that, curze? lmao, the guy was a crazy bastard! mortarion, i see him having a shot but doesn't he have some sort of feud with certain primarchs? fulgrim, now that's an interesting one. he certainly should have the skills to make them like him, but i'm affraid he is too arrogant to be able to do so. the way i see it he always looks down upon the other legions. and now who would you join to assault the most badass fortress in the world, a guy that says he needs you, that your superiority in the field of artillery/close combat/whatever win will you the day, or a chap that goes like "i know your tactics and methods are flawed, but i really need you to be there as cannon fodder" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2960927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezzy Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Lorgar, after his trip into the Eye he wasn't really the runt of the pack any more was he? He's the chosen of the Chaos Gods and the architect of the entire Heresy. Lorgar would lead the traitors to Terra with the help of Demon-Fulgrim and Magnus I guess. Without Horus in control though there'd have been a breakdown of order. The World Eaters at least wouldn't follow orders and would split off from the main forces. They'd probably go to Terra anyway just not on the path that Lorgar would be leading. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2961153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus de Mortalis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 This discussion got me thinking of how bad most of the primarchs actually were at being battlefield commanders. Their pride and narcissism usually guided them in battle and not sound strategy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2961318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Since they are following a certain god, Fulgrim, Angron, Magnus and Mortarion wouldn't be the warmaster. Alpharius would probably backstab traitors, Lorgar was perceived as a boring preacher by the others, Perturabo had no social skill, Konrad Curze was crazy. Loyalists have charismatic leaders, such as Lion, Roboutte, Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius but traitors seems to be suffering from absence of a leader except Horus. This is the reason why Abaddon, an astartes, bears the warmaster title. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2962920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Konrad Curze was crazy. Not to mention that he's currently suffering from a fatal case of death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2962925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kizzdougs Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Anybody saying Lorgar was weak and despised hasn't read 'Aurelian'. Sure he started off that way but after the 'drop site massacre' things are different. Having said that, i'm not sure he would have wanted overall command. My personal vote for 'new' warmaster would have to go to Angron or Perturabo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2962936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowHaunt Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm thinking that Alpharius would make sure that the "wrong" choice was made, so as to ensure the ultimate defeat of Chaos. That probably would mean installing Lorgar as chief talking head, while convincing the other Primarchs to mostly ignore him, thus undermining the invasion's cohesiveness. Meanwhile, he'd be leaking information to the loyalists each time one of the others went "off the reservation", whittling down their forces. By the time they arrive at Terra, Alpha Legion would be 40-50% of the total forces, and be able to hand the remnants over on a platter. Afterwards, he'd nudge RG with his elbow and say "See how well MY way works? Alpharius 8, Traitors 0!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2962938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Since they are following a certain god, Fulgrim, Angron, Magnus and Mortarion wouldn't be the warmaster. does mortarion already follow a single god? if i recall correctly he only went over to nurgle after typhus released the plague on their way to terra. if he coud unite all the legions behind him i can see all the gods possibly investing in him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244824-if-horus-was-killed-before-the-siege-of-terra/#findComment-2963092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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