shin-ryu-ken Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I would like to have my chapter organised differently but am unsure how i can justify it. I am planning on having "Deathwing" style 1st, "Ravenwing" 2nd and then have 4 battle companies that consist of 1 vanguard vets squad, 1 sternguard vets squad, 3 tactical squads, 3 assault squads and 2 devestator squads. 7th will be scouts. Undersized chapter with each company acting more like a clan, with it's own ship etc. Here's the real problem, I want them to be Blood Angels successors. Only reason I can think of is something to do with the culture of thier homeworld influencing thier organisation. Any better ideas? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
soddinnutter Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Fighting one type of foe for too long or in the same sorts of environments may have caused them to adapt. Or maybe the goof on the Chapter Master throne at some point in history took one too many lumps of shrapnel to the Brain and said something on the lines of "I have had an idea..." and that idea actually worked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Why do you need to have that alternate organization? Often, people implement alternate Chapter organizations for their DIYs because of the way they envision their armies. This is unnecessary, however. Space Marine forces are often task-organized, rarely being solely formed from a single company. So a force under the command of Captain Y might take elements of his battle company (but not the entire company), and will then include elements from other companies. Alternately, players will have different Chapter organizations for no other reason than to be different, with no real reason and a subsequent shoehorning in of a reason. I'm not saying that either of these two motivations applies to you, but it's worth considering. Looking at the particulars of your Chapter organization, you have set up for a much higher number of veterans than normal, with a full First Company and eighty additional veterans scattered through the Battle Companies. There is some sort of precedent with the Company Veterans of the Unforgiven Chapters, but even those Chapters limit themselves to just one squad of such veterans in other companies. My suggestion is to adjust the company composition, changing your "1 vanguard vets squad, 1 sternguard vets squad" to simply "1 squad of veterans" and turning the other squad back into a Tactical squad. The squad of veterans can be fielded as either Sternguard or Vanguard (assuming all tactical dreadnought armour remains in the First Company). If you feel a need to have additional veterans in your army, you can simply say that they've been borrowed from the First Company for the operation. Regardless (you can always ignore my suggestion), in addition to the potential influences of the homeworld, you may decide that an alternate interpretation of the Codex Astartes allows your Chapter to organize along slightly deviant lines. This is similar to how the Red Scorpions allow for Apothecaries in their Tactical squads. Or you could use your clan analogy in a manner similar to the Iron Hands (organized into Clan Companies), Space Wolves (organized into Great Companies), and White Scars (organized into Brotherhoods). This is really a variant of the "homeworld influence" you alluded to, providing the explanation for how the homeworld influenced the Chapter to not follow standard Codex Astartes organization. Alternately, perhaps prolonged operations using a standardized task force setup prompted the Chapter to institutionalize this composition, reorganizing to support it and reduce task-organization. It's important to remember that "most" Chapters are created along Codex lines. This allows for "some" Chapters to not be created along strict Codex lines. And Insignium Astartes made it clear that some Chapters might start off as Codex adherent, but might later deviate for some reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yeah I guess that is a lot of veterans. My plan is for the chapter to be organised like this: The chapter master and all hq staff live in the fortress monastry on the homeworld which is manned by the 1st co (50 marines)in TDA as sort of a royal guard, they join other companies as an when necessary but always leave enough at home to guard the chapter master unless he goes to war in which case they will go with him. The rest of the companies/clans each have a ship that they mooch around the universe in. Every 10 years the captains of each company leave a retainer in charge of their ship and return home to discuss space mariney things with the chapter master That's why I had the 2 vet squads cause they're all function independently. You think this is feasible with some tweaking? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Only reason I can think of is something to do with the culture of thier homeworld influencing thier organisation. That doesn't seem to satisfy you. I think it's weak and boring. Why do you need to have that alternate organization? Often, people implement alternate Chapter organizations for their DIYs because of the way they envision their armies. This is unnecessary, however. Space Marine forces are often task-organized, rarely being solely formed from a single company. So a force under the command of Captain Y might take elements of his battle company (but not the entire company), and will then include elements from other companies. Alternately, players will have different Chapter organizations for no other reason than to be different, with no real reason and a subsequent shoehorning in of a reason. I'm not saying that either of these two motivations applies to you, but it's worth considering. If the alternate organization is their for a bad reason, you'll figure that out and drop it later. Don't worry about this. I would like to have my chapter organised differently but am unsure how i can justify it. I am planning on having "Deathwing" style 1st, "Ravenwing" 2nd and then have 4 battle companies that consist of 1 vanguard vets squad, 1 sternguard vets squad, 3 tactical squads, 3 assault squads and 2 devestator squads. 7th will be scouts. Undersized chapter with each company acting more like a clan, with it's own ship etc. Here's the real problem, I want them to be Blood Angels successors. They seem ready for anything. A single codex company isn't enough for even planetary wars. Chapters usually have strike forces made from a battle company plus a hundred marines from the veterans and reserves. That's the only way they can cover all the specialties and have enough bodies. So that way, they usually have two captains per strike force, and somebody has to decide which battle company gets how many support units from the reserves. The Iron Hands have completely separate companies because they don't have a proper chapter master. They don't have anybody with enough political power to make the captains coordinate well. They also have a thing about concentrating everyone in the same place. You aren't doing that, but it's a non-homeworld reason. The Chapter decided not to have a headquarters. Since your Chapter Master controls the Terminators directly, you might say that the battle companies are independent because they each choose their own captain from their own ranks, and they don't have to refer that choice to the Chapter Master, the Master of Sanctity, or any other part of the chapter. The Chapter Master is really just the captain of a half-strength company, and his main influence is recruiting and distributing terminator squads. You have a lot of assault and veteran squads. In the earliest incarnation of Ultramarines, assault and veteran squads were the same things, and the same in the original Space Wolf rules. Assault squads weren't jump-packers, they were just the spearhead of the army, and it was a coveted honor. Jump-packs were usually distributed to regular squads. You might say that each battle company has a Sternguard fraternity of 10-25 marines, and a Vanguard fraternity of 10-25 marines, and these account for your veterans and assault squads. All the other squad types are regular battle brothers. Since there are only a few companies and they are independent, they might have to have more than 100 marines each. Dark Angels' second company are an enormous search party, they aren't really used for fighting battles or splitting among other companies. What are you searching for? Wait, you're obviously searching for a cure to the Blood Angels' curses, and that's why the companies have to be independent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 A space marine company is described as being able to overwhelm a world single handed ;) Otherwise SW Great Companies would be less than effective on their own, which is how they typically operate :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Rathul Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 No chapter has to be a codex chapter, they all choose to be. Chapters choose to follow the codex as a guideline of orgaization that works efficently. No harm in using something that is not broke. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Otherwise SW Great Companies would be less than effective on their own, which is how they typically operate :( Exactly. The DIY companies would need to be large, like great companies, instead of 100 marines, like non-great companies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Exactly. The DIY companies would need to be large, like great companies, instead of 100 marines, like non-great companies. Er, no, you missed my first point. A typical Great Company is only 120 marines including Wolf Guard and Wolf Scouts :( Ragnar's is considered especially large at almost 200. There's even a unit in the Space Wolf codex that represents when the Great Wolf of the Great Company is busy, but doesn't need all of his forces, so he sends a wolf guard to take care of leadership for him. Wasn't the whole point of a codex company, that it was effecient and very powerful as a standalone unit? You've got everything you need in there - scouts are there for training (not really necessary in other words) and veterans are there for viewing who should join them (also not necessary). The only real support units that a company brings along for the actual needed help you didn't even mention, and that's the Chapter's motor pool. The only reason those are needed is because some things are better done with tanks, and it let's the rest of the actual company get along with whatever else needs to be done. DIY companies, if they follow codex, don't need to be large at all :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Er, no, you missed my first point. missing things on purpose, ITT. Bran Redmaw has nearly two hundred marines. Blackmane and Grimnar's companies both have more than Redmaw's. The full chapter assembled after being devastated during Battle of the Fang was 2000 marines. During that battle, one great company was reduced to forty marines - at least 67% loss. Since large parts of the chapter were away, they may have lost less than 20% original strength, instead of 67% across all great companies. Even less than 20% losses provide for original strength over 2400 marines divided among the Great Companies. Subtracting priests and three large companies, a moderately poweful Wolf Lord commands over 150 personnel. Two sources suggest a motor pool. The 3e codex does so ambiguously on the same chart it mistakenly gives land speeders their own crew. The Chronus entry is in passing and in a way that does not provide enough crew for an entire chapter. Neither of these describe the putative group's recruitment, constitution, or livery. Codex Ultramarines, Insignium Astartes, and two non-consecutive Imperial Armor books explicitly describe the main companies as crewing tanks. Crew are shown and labeled as coming from regular squads in the companies. Even in a compromise whereby tank crew are provided by an independent Chronus contingent, there are not enough to crew rhinos. Instead they must be crewed by the companies' squads as in the Armies of the Imperium company list. Codex companies which have to crew their own vehicles require augmentation. The Reserves are constituted specifically to "bolster and reinforce," verbatim, the battle companies. Both the prescriptions of codex forces and the tendencies of the Wolf Lords demonstrate that the natural strength of a marine strike force is 140-200 marines. If they operate unsupported over a system or several systems, an unaugmented battle company cannot sustain successive campaigns. I see their names instead of their images, and I still am not sure what your interjections are meant to emote. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Where vehicle crews come from is a topic for another discussion (which has taken place multiple times). This discussion is about how shin-ryu-ken might justify having an alternate Chapter organization, and what that might end up looking like. Let's show shin-ryu-ken some courtesy and stay on topic, please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Only reason I can think of is something to do with the culture of thier homeworld influencing thier organisation. Any better ideas? Mutated geneseed (even moreso than usual) prevents your chapter taking on as many recruits as they otherwise could? This could explain the deviation in your numbers, and give your ravenwing-esque company something to search out - alternate homeworlds where the people might be more compatible with the geneseed. You could also have some tensions with some companies preferring the newer semi-autonomous clan-structure, and others wanting to go back to the glory days of the original ten companies. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2961760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CantonWC Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The Codex structure works pretty well the way it is. If it's not broke, don't fix it. If you want something different, you had better be able to explain it, and convincingly. Now, according to an old source, "The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could." So I guess that's a little wiggle room for you. According to Insignium Astartes, the Codex does seem to be strangely and surprisingly lenient on how the ten 100 man Companies can be organized, "or rather the various copies of the Codex do not agree on this point." If they are of Ultra stock, they will most likely have the traditional ten Company structure, with maybe a minor difference or two due to a long history and some quirk of personality that may develop in that time. If they are not of Ultra stock, it might be a tiny bit more believable if they decide they don't want to do things Guilliman's way. Even so, most gene-lines still follow the traditional ten Company structure. CWC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244886-how-to-justify-non-codex-organisation/#findComment-2962220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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