Epistolary Exander Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I was wondering recently just how effective the dropsite massacre really was for helping the Chaos side in the conflict of the heresy? I say this because from most of the material new and old I have read indicates that Horus did not succeed in destroying the 3 loyalist legions of the first wave. If you look at the effects on the 3 legions appear to be: 1) The Salanders were almost exclusively wiped out to a marine, with the status of Vulkan unknown. So with this regard Horus succeeded with his aim with this legion. Yet if you actually consider the importance of this legion in the overall picture Horus has arguably only removed a lesser legion as the Salamanders were one of the smallest legions. To counter this though the Salamanders care of civlians, coupled with their technical abilities would have been useful to the Imperium with the loss of so many Forge Worlds and PR value of the Sallies protecting Imperial Worlds from the traitors. Overall the loss the Salamanders was useful to Horus. 2) The Raven Guard recieved over 75000 dead marines, extensive losses to both fleet & armoury assets and in particular shortage of suits of power armour was acute. However Corax survived and is leading his surviving few thousand marines in a shadow campaign against the traitors, which would not stop the traitors advance on Terra but would slaughter thousands of valued traitor marines. This outcome indicates only a half win for both sides. 3) The effect on the Iron Hands appears to be limited the loss of their veteran cadre along with the death of Ferrus Manus himself, this being as most of the Legion did make it to the dropsite to be killed along with the 2 other legions. The status of the rest of the Iron Hands appears to be that with the loss of Ferrus the legion was incapacitated with no clear leadership and largely stayed out the remaining conflict, although certain elements of the legion did still openly oppose the traitor advance. This result appears again to be only a half win for both sides as Iron Hands played little part in the conflict, while still 10 of thousands of loyalist marines remained at large as a possible threat to the traitors. To top this off Horus placed more value on eliminating other legions in the preparation of the Heresy namely the Blood Angels and Ultramarines, for he believed this legions would be pivotal against him and it appears that this assumption would be correct. Considering how his machinations failed to remove these 2 legions & the survival of the Raven Guard and Iron Hands would suggest that Horus failed to remove a significant threat to his cause at Isstvan 5. Least this is my 2 cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 What? he effectively removed the 3 legions from having any more participation in the war, eliminated a Primarch and not just the deaths of the marines but the tanks and other resources (armor, geneseed, weapons) that the loyalist had to leave behind and thus ended in the hands of the traitors. how the hell was that not a success? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 wasn't istvaan V ment to both deal damage to the other loyalist chapters aswell as removing any loyalists left in their own fleet? Horus needed a conflict to remove himself from the loyalists within his own legion, think of what he would need to do if it wasn't for istvaan, a lot of "accidents" without getting suspicious? he couldn't allow any of them on his fleet anymore, think of how they could could have hindered his approach to terra; voidshields and engines failing, stuff exploding etc. sure in the end they would bite the dust, but i can easely see them delay the surge forward to terra almost as much as the loyalist legions would be able to do Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon950 Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I believe that his objectives were 2-fold. The first being to bring the legions under his command together and test them in killing their brothers from other legions. Then the second was to reduce the other legions so that they would be inefficative or wiped out. The only real damage that was done on that world was Ferrus Manus was killed, since the other 2 primarchs survived. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Added to the fact that at that point all the remaining loyalist legions really ahd to double-check who they were trusting - 5 'loyal' legions were sent to Isstvan to take down Horus, and 2 of them revealed themselves as traitors, turning their guns on the remaining 3. Thats 2 major blows to the bonds of trust that existed between the marines, the Emperor and the Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 wasn't istvaan V ment to both deal damage to the other loyalist chapters aswell as removing any loyalists left in their own fleet? Horus needed a conflict to remove himself from the loyalists within his own legion, think of what he would need to do if it wasn't for istvaan, a lot of "accidents" without getting suspicious? he couldn't allow any of them on his fleet anymore, Wrong planet, that was Isstvan III. 5 'loyal' legions were sent to Isstvan to take down Horus, and 2 of them revealed themselves as traitors, turning their guns on the remaining 3. 7 legions, 4 turned traitor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Sorry - my bad. Was thinking of the Iron Warriors and I knew there was at least 1 other who rebelled. Do I assume that the others you refer to include the Night Lords? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I believe that his objectives were 2-fold. The first being to bring the legions under his command together and test them in killing their brothers from other legions. Then the second was to reduce the other legions so that they would be inefficative or wiped out. The only real damage that was done on that world was Ferrus Manus was killed, since the other 2 primarchs survived. Its arguable that Vulkan survived, and Corax didnt really do much to help the outcome of the civil war after Isstvan. Also, the Salamanders being almost wiped out, the Raven Guard suffering crippling loses and the entire of the IH first company being killed could be called "serious damage". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry - my bad. Was thinking of the Iron Warriors and I knew there was at least 1 other who rebelled. Do I assume that the others you refer to include the Night Lords? And Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodunius Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Its arguable that Vulkan survived Is it? There are references in Heresy-era fiction about Vulkan being missing and presumed dead but do any of them actually outright state that he is dead? Sorry - my bad. Was thinking of the Iron Warriors and I knew there was at least 1 other who rebelled. Do I assume that the others you refer to include the Night Lords? The numbers are pretty much set in stone, exactly which legions they were however is a bit iffy.. Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness and the Emperor's Children and Raven Guard IA articles put the Emperor's Children as one of them. The Raven Guard IA (and also the 3.5 chaos codex IIRC) states the others to have been the World Eaters, Death Guard and Iron Warriors. Space Marine 1st edition, the Iron Warriors IA and the CCG/Black Library however put it as the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Night Lords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Speaking of Vulcan, does anyone have his actual status? Because I've read somewhere that says he was killed at Istvaan, but also that he opposed the splitting of the Legions. Kinda hard to do when you're dead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 He survived Istvaan, because he both took part in the debate over the introduction of the Codex, created/scattered his relics across the galaxy, and there are scattered records indicating he survived for nearly 3000 years after the Heresy. It's just unknown at the moment in the Heresy series because his Legion was mauled even more than the Raven Guard were, and it seems he retreated back to Nocturne rather than Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vazzy Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 He survived Istvaan, because he both took part in the debate over the introduction of the Codex, created/scattered his relics across the galaxy, and there are scattered records indicating he survived for nearly 3000 years after the Heresy. It's just unknown at the moment in the Heresy series because his Legion was mauled even more than the Raven Guard were, and it seems he retreated back to Nocturne rather than Terra. Ahhhh, ok, I was just wondering. And now I know and knowing... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The short stories (in Age of Darkness) include one with a Salamander who fought at Istvaan V- and does not know what happened to Vulkan, even two years later. So- it may be that he disappeared completely for the first few years of the Heresy, only turning up later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Also, the vicotry was many faceted in that it ruined morale within the Legiones Astartes, and if you remember correctly, I believe that whilst those 3 Legions who were massacred there were not the strongest or largest, they were the closest who were the least engaged (hence why there were able to deploy to isstvaan in such a small space of time) Horus had deployed others legions vast distances away and had used his choatic powers to prevent them from freely travelling. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Horus destroyed nearly a third of the Loyalist Astartes and salvaged all of their reusable heavy materiel as well as a fair few ships id imagine, killing one of the Primarchs and knocking another out of the Heresy arent to be discounted either... Its a solid win for Horus, no questions asked surely? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2961806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Horus destroyed nearly a third of the Loyalist Astartes and salvaged all of their reusable heavy materiel as well as a fair few ships id imagine, killing one of the Primarchs and knocking another out of the Heresy arent to be discounted either... Its a solid win for Horus, no questions asked surely? My argument is that while all of this happened, Horus failed to totally destroy the 3 legions sent against him & it is this fact that he supposedly destroyed the 3 legions in their entirety that is thrown around in some parts of the fluff to show how desperate a time the loyalists had during the heresy. While yes he did accomplish all of those feats he still had Corax and his 4000 marines butchering his forces, along with 10000s of Iron Hands doing something along & Vulkan being possibly still alive to be another cause of pain down the road. In short the Imperium still has good sources of propaganda it can take from the battle Isstvan 5, even if its not as good as it had hoped before the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Actually, the Massacre was a success in removing the Salamanders from the war, as they survived with a few hundred at best, and didn't have access to the gene-tech that allowed Corax to rebuild his Legion to fighting strength. The Raven Guard were also as good as gone, until the unexpected complication of the above-mentioned gene-tech allowing Corax to rapidly rebuild his Legion. As for the Iron Hands, the vast majority of their command organisation, including their Primarch, was destroyed on Istvaan. While there were many more Iron Hands surviving, they weren't in an ideal position to strike back at the Traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chaplain Ryld Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 From a 'weaken your enemy' point of view, Istvaan 5 would have been hailed as a success by the Traitors. But psychologically, the ambush failed somewhat in my opinion. 7 Traitor Legions ambushing 2 Loyalists, plus Ferrus and his First Company should have been destroyed to a man, sending a clear message back to Terra. Instead Corax survived with part of his Legion along with some of the Salamanders. I'm sure this would have given the rest of the Loyalist Legions a little bit of a boost further down the track. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceMarine77 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 true Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowHaunt Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, the judgement of "success" really has to depend on the goal, though, doesn't it? Consider Horus' position for a moment. He's just dramatically weakened his own legion, along with the Death Guard, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children, with the purge of loyalists that happened at Isstvaan III. His remaining allies are arriving as part of the trap, but none of them have been blooded, yet. He can't really know for sure that they're willing to go all-in with him, until he makes them pull the trigger on the other legions. Isstvaan V, for all the damage it did to the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands, was primarily a loyalty check on the newly arrived traitor legions. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers had not yet acted in rebellion before that. Any one of them - or all of them - could have had backed out at any point, headed off to Terra, and been able to say they had been approached by Horus, tempted into disloyalty, but refused. Horus needed them to commit, and by having them open fire on loyal legions, including even their brother Primarchs, he not only forced a demonstration of their loyalty, he blooded them in a way that would seal them to him. Once they fired on the Primarchs, they could expect no mercy from the remaining loyalist legions, and every one of them knew it. In a strict military sense, the battle went Horus' way, but with 8 legions taking on 3, it didn't demonstrate any resounding superiority beyond numerical. But in a political sense, it was huge. In one battle, he emasculated 3 of the 9 legions he had to face, and at the same time, removed all doubt about the loyalty of the 8 traitor legions to his own cause. While the loyalists would spend months being unsure which legions to trust, and which might turn, he gained clarity for his own forces. That alone could very well be the reason he was able to make it all the way to Terra without being beaten. Isstvaan 5 was not about men or material. It was a battle for the mind, and on that battlefield, Horus came up big. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, the judgement of "success" really has to depend on the goal, though, doesn't it? Consider Horus' position for a moment. He's just dramatically weakened his own legion, along with the Death Guard, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children, with the purge of loyalists that happened at Isstvaan III. His remaining allies are arriving as part of the trap, but none of them have been blooded, yet. He can't really know for sure that they're willing to go all-in with him, until he makes them pull the trigger on the other legions. Isstvaan V, for all the damage it did to the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands, was primarily a loyalty check on the newly arrived traitor legions. The Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers had not yet acted in rebellion before that. Any one of them - or all of them - could have had backed out at any point, headed off to Terra, and been able to say they had been approached by Horus, tempted into disloyalty, but refused. Horus needed them to commit, and by having them open fire on loyal legions, including even their brother Primarchs, he not only forced a demonstration of their loyalty, he blooded them in a way that would seal them to him. Once they fired on the Primarchs, they could expect no mercy from the remaining loyalist legions, and every one of them knew it. In a strict military sense, the battle went Horus' way, but with 8 legions taking on 3, it didn't demonstrate any resounding superiority beyond numerical. But in a political sense, it was huge. In one battle, he emasculated 3 of the 9 legions he had to face, and at the same time, removed all doubt about the loyalty of the 8 traitor legions to his own cause. While the loyalists would spend months being unsure which legions to trust, and which might turn, he gained clarity for his own forces. That alone could very well be the reason he was able to make it all the way to Terra without being beaten. Isstvaan 5 was not about men or material. It was a battle for the mind, and on that battlefield, Horus came up big. This is actually very well put! It describes the situation exactly as I understand it. Three objectives: Tactical: victory on the field - check! Strategic: destroy the military capacity of three loyal legions - check! Political: seal the loyalty of the traitor legions - check! Well written ShadowHaunt! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Also, it was part of the Alpha legions plan to let the Raven Guard escape with around 3k marines, as evidenced in the short story in the Age of Darkness Novel and Deliverence Lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epistolary Exander Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 I apologise I accidentally removed the original content of this post, please can a mod restore it, thanks :P. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowHaunt Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Based on Deliverence Lost Horus grilled Alpharius for not allowing the World Eaters to destroy the Raven Guard because that was not part of his plan. But do you think Horus was more upset about a thousand or so marines getting away, or about Alpharius' insubordination? I really think the marines were secondary, for him. It was far more important for him to solidify his authority among the traitor legions. And here's upstart of the bunch, last one found, with the fewest honors, and he's doing his own thing! If he doesn't upbraid Alpharius for that, strongly and quickly, there's 6 more Primarchs right there, who will get the idea that it's ok for them to play their own games, too. As Warmaster, Horus had his authority because it was given to him by the Emperor, and even if they didn't like it, none of the other Primarchs ignore that. As a traitor, his authority came only from what he could win for himself, through politicking, cunning, circumstance, or force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/244901-was-isstvan-5-really-that-effective/#findComment-2962648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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