Was Isstvan 5 really that effective?

[TennisBall]

Well, the judgement of "success" really has to depend on the goal, though, doesn't it? Consider Horus' position for a moment. He's just dramatically weakened his own legion, along with the Death Guard, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children, with the purge of loyalists that happened at Isstvaan III. His remaining allies are arriving as part of the trap, but none of them have been blooded, yet. He can't really know for sure that they're willing to go all-in with him, until he makes them pull the trigger on the other legions.

 

The Word Bearers are the ones that corrupted Horus, they were the first legion to fall to chaos so they were definitely in. The Iron Warriors were the ones that built the defences that Horus used on Istvaan V so they were already actively involved too and had purged their own planet as had the Night Lords. The Alpha Legion had butchered their own fleet some time back after their meeting with the Cabal. All the traitor legions in the second wave had committed atrocities already, this was their first major conflict against fellow astartes. Of course the bulk of the Word Bearers were in Ultramar attacking the Ultramarines or however that timeline goes.

 

What the loyalists lost was the bulk of the Raven Guard Legion and its supporting fleet; almost all the Salamanders Legion and its fleet; 1000 veterans of the Iron Hands and the primarch Ferrus Manus which effectively cut the head off of a third Legion.

 

What the traitors gained was all the war material that was salvageable and the fear that their victory brought to the Imperium. They also knew that there were no traitors in their ranks and were free to operate accordingly, the loyalists couldn't say the same.

[Epistolary Exander]

The Iron Warriors were the ones that built the defences that Horus used on Istvaan V

 

It was actually the Emperor's Children who fortified the Urghall Depression ready for the loyalist assault, while the Iron Warriors used prefabricated fortifications to secure the 2nd wave's landing positions.

[Amadeus Baal]

Personally I think it was very effective for several reasons. Firstly, he crippled three legions that he would at some time have to face, a huge blow to his opposition. He did so on his terms, on a ground of his choosing, reducing his losses. He gave his fledgling rebellion a great victory and proved his vision was possible. He was able to observe how his legions performed and worked together when fighting other Marines. A valuable lesson when his aim was ultimately to take Terra. Most importantly in my opinion, he showed the billions of Imperial soldiers and citizens that three of the Emperor's legions could fall and one of the Emperor's sons slain in one fell stroke. An event that they probably thought or were told by Imperial dogma was impossible, impossible unless perhaps right was on his side. The side of a man honoured and respected throughout the Galaxy. Enough to plant the seeds of doubt amongst the billions out there. Sprinkle in a little propaganda and hearsay, add a few victory reports, if this wasn't enough to lure others to your cause, it would at least slow their hand in reacting. Not bad for act one of a rebellion. Yes some escaped the massacre, but he probably expected that considering the quality of his opposition.

[Veteran Sergeant]

It was most definitely a success. Three legions all but wiped out with comparatively minimal casualties. Yeah, the Raven Guard and Iron Hands were a bit of a pain in the butt afterwards, but their effectiveness as a fighting force capable of derailing Horus's plans for assaulting Terra was removed.

 

The bigger hit to his plan was wasting the incompetent and inexperienced Word Bearers against the Ultramarines. Believing that Lorgar could defeat Guilliman was insane. Even with the element of surprise, it was matching the Legions' greatest general against the Legions' worst one. Horus would have been smarter to expend the Word Bearers against Terra and dealing with the Ultramarines later, or using the Alpha Legion to delay the Ultramarines in some manner instead of the Space Wolves, who would have already been depleted in razing Prospero.

[TennisBall]

The Iron Warriors were the ones that built the defences that Horus used on Istvaan V

 

It was actually the Emperor's Children who fortified the Urghall Depression ready for the loyalist assault, while the Iron Warriors used prefabricated fortifications to secure the 2nd wave's landing positions.

Okay thanks, I did wonder about that as I thought the Iron Warriors were supposed to be around Olympia at that time but as they were the great siege legion I thought that was them.

[Kol Saresk]

The way I see it, it did two things.

 

One, it effectively broke the back of three Legions. In severely depleted the numbers of the Salamanders and the Raven Guard, at least until Corax implemented his cloning regime.

 

Two, it caused the remainder Legions to be wary of trusting each other. You can see this in that the remaining Legions start function on their own without each others aid. The DA go on their own crusade after the Night Lords while Luthor breaks Caliban away from the Imperium. And Gulliman consolidates the realm of Ultramar so it would survive what he saw as an inevitable collapse of the Imperium at large. He even invites the Lion to join in. And there is no current fluff, that I've read yet, of any joint operations between the remaining Loyalist Legions until the Siege of Terra. This means that as long as the Traitor Marines don't get cocky, they can roam at large and ensure Horus' rule. This is pretty much what allowed the entirety of nine entire Legions(or has it been shortened to eight now?) to fall upon Terra itself once they opened a path to it.

[Kol Saresk]

It was most definitely a success. Three legions all but wiped out with comparatively minimal casualties. Yeah, the Raven Guard and Iron Hands were a bit of a pain in the butt afterwards, but their effectiveness as a fighting force capable of derailing Horus's plans for assaulting Terra was removed.

 

The bigger hit to his plan was wasting the incompetent and inexperienced Word Bearers against the Ultramarines. Believing that Lorgar could defeat Guilliman was insane. Even with the element of surprise, it was matching the Legions' greatest general against the Legions' worst one. Horus would have been smarter to expend the Word Bearers against Terra and dealing with the Ultramarines later, or using the Alpha Legion to delay the Ultramarines in some manner instead of the Space Wolves, who would have already been depleted in razing Prospero.

Actually in both the old and new fluff it was always Kor Phaeron who led the assualt against the Ultramarines with only half of the Word Bearers force. And they did literally burn Calth to the ground as well as wreak havoc on the entire region of Ultramar before they were forced back into the Maelstrom roughly the same time as Horus' death and the retreat to the Eye. As far as Lorgar, he participated in the Siege itself. And I wouldn't call them inexperienced or incompetent as they expanded the Imperium well beyond its Crusade-era borders on all fronts while increasing to such numerical superiority that even split in half as well as a presence on Terra(Battle of the Abyss although it is literally the only source that mentions a Word Bearers presence on Terra before the Siege) and still be a threat on at least two of the fronts.

[hendrik]

, or using the Alpha Legion to delay the Ultramarines in some manner instead of the Space Wolves, who would have already been depleted in razing Prospero.

how do you figure the space wolves would be depleted? i mean sure they took a lot of casualties but so did the all the traitor legions (their full fighting strenght- all the loyalists-losses in the "purification" of their own fleet=smaller traitor legion). I might have to reread prospero burns but i'm pretty sure leman russ only had deployed two waves before he defeated magnus. also take in account that it was the space wolves legion who was the one that was intended to deal with other legions should they stray from the emperors path. as such i'm pretty sure they would be able to do so without getting depleted. had they been depleted it would have been mentioned in a book by now. that's why horus was so affraid of the wolves, they were still a sizeable force and the emperors chosen legion to deal with any primarch/legion that doesn't listen.

he simply could not afford to leave the wolves come to terra

[Epistolary Exander]

, or using the Alpha Legion to delay the Ultramarines in some manner instead of the Space Wolves, who would have already been depleted in razing Prospero.

how do you figure the space wolves would be depleted? i mean sure they took a lot of casualties but so did the all the traitor legions (their full fighting strenght- all the loyalists-losses in the "purification" of their own fleet=smaller traitor legion). I might have to reread prospero burns but i'm pretty sure leman russ only had deployed two waves before he defeated magnus. also take in account that it was the space wolves legion who was the one that was intended to deal with other legions should they stray from the emperors path. as such i'm pretty sure they would be able to do so without getting depleted. had they been depleted it would have been mentioned in a book by now. that's why horus was so affraid of the wolves, they were still a sizeable force and the emperors chosen legion to deal with any primarch/legion that doesn't listen.

he simply could not afford to leave the wolves come to terra

 

It is quoted in Prospero Burns that the there was roughly 4000 wolves that survived the razing of Tizca along with their 13th Company missing, this would place the SW with a similiar ground combat ability to the Raven Guard of the period but the SW would have probably have excessive amounts of armour and fleet assets after the battle of Tizca. Saying this maybe the 13th Company were sent off by Russ to directly pursue the traitor legions while he took the majority of his legion back to Fenris, only BL & GW can clarify that later in the series.

[Lord_Caerolion]

, or using the Alpha Legion to delay the Ultramarines in some manner instead of the Space Wolves, who would have already been depleted in razing Prospero.

how do you figure the space wolves would be depleted? i mean sure they took a lot of casualties but so did the all the traitor legions (their full fighting strenght- all the loyalists-losses in the "purification" of their own fleet=smaller traitor legion). I might have to reread prospero burns but i'm pretty sure leman russ only had deployed two waves before he defeated magnus. also take in account that it was the space wolves legion who was the one that was intended to deal with other legions should they stray from the emperors path. as such i'm pretty sure they would be able to do so without getting depleted. had they been depleted it would have been mentioned in a book by now. that's why horus was so affraid of the wolves, they were still a sizeable force and the emperors chosen legion to deal with any primarch/legion that doesn't listen.

he simply could not afford to leave the wolves come to terra

 

The Wolves have consistently been described as not being a very large Legion, and they then proceeded to attack another similarly sized Legion, on said Legions homeworld, with the other Legion being fuelled by the infernal powers of Chaos. I think you're also overestimating the whole "Wolves as Executioners" thing. We know from Aurelian that the Wolves aren't the sole choice, in that in the book they're said to work alongside the Night Lords in one possible future to take down the Word Bearers, and secondly, they might be good fighters, but they don't have any massive advantage over other Legions. If anything, they're at a disadvantage, because they're far smaller than most of the other Legions. Unless you're going to tell me that every Space Wolf is consistently worth at least two Astartes from the other Legions, then you've got to recognise that the Wolves aren't the utter Marine-killing super-Astartes that people make them out to be.

 

You've also got the fact that the Wolves split into only two Chapters after the Heresy. While I know that the Wolves don't follow the Codex, you've also got to realise that there was far, far greater scrutiny after the Heresy, so he would have been far more accepting of the limitations. Hell, Dorn almost got declared Traitor for refusing the Codex, and he was the Emperors Praetorian, guardian of Terra itself. Russ would have had far less political protection if he'd said "screw the Codex, my Chapter is staying at 6,000 men!" Let's be generous, and assume that Russ managed to get away with 2000 Astartes in the Space Wolves, and 1000 in the Wolf Brothers. That's still 3000 Astartes left over, from the tens of thousands they had before. Forgive me, but that sounds pretty damned depleted, and they didn't exactly go through incredibly heavy fighting after the Scouring of Prospero.

[Kol Saresk]

That is true. The Wolves would have been depleted since a Titan and an entire Legion was thrown against them using psychic powers that would have torn through them. But it can be inferred that Horus still feared the Wolves of Russ in a way that he feared none of the other Legions since he saw fit to trap them in the warp. At least that is what the fluff is pointing towards happening anyways. It is possible that even at their depleted strength the Wolves were still able to act on such a cohesive level that they presented a greater threat than say Corax's guerrilla tactics. It might have been different because the Raven Guard would have needed a just a really strong police force while the Space Wolves would have needed some sort of united front as they were on par with the World Eaters as far as assault power.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Pretty much. Given the fact that the Space Wolves were only split twice, their numbers must have been lower after the Scouring. So, we can either assume they took heavy casualties restoring the Imperium (where other Legions were growing in size like the Raven Guard and Ultramarines), or the more likely thing, that going toe to toe with another legion, one full of pyskers at that, that they didn't escape Propsero without taking considerable casualties.

[TennisBall]

Of course the Wolves only having one successor chapter is a relic of when the legions were a lot smaller too.

[hendrik]

note that the number of space wolves in prospero burns are just the ones russ took with him in the assault on tisca, and not all the space wolves out there at that moment. now offcourse a space wolf isn't necesarrily better than 2 other marines, but they were the ones to do the dirty jobs when needed, sticking to their orders without a question. what i ment in my comment was that the space wolves were a greater threat to horus at that time then the ultramarines. they might not have the biggest numbers, but they were still a sizable force,especially teamed up with the dark angels who were also making their way to terra. had the space wolves been further away the scenario could have been entirely different, but given the fact that even with the hold ups of the alpha legions the space wolves were only days,maybe even hours away from terra they were really breathing down on horus's neck

[calgar101]

As for legion sizes well we do not have the exact number for each legion just a for a few and then some comment for others. Now most legions would have been between 60-80k I would say, we know that the Ultramarines were in excess of 250k, the Word Bearers in excess of 100k those legions at the one end of the spectrum. The Thousand Sons and Emperors Children were at the other end with 10-20k marines. Now the Space Wolves could still be regarded as a small legion at 30-40k marines and still out number the Thousand Sons.

[Iron Lord]

We know from Imperial Armour 8 that the Raven Guard were at 80,000.

[Salisbury]

The events on Istvaan V were towards a dual purpose, if you ask me. It seems that Horus was working to eliminate a primarch, and an entire chapter. But, he was also working to conquer Istvaan V (And later the rest of the Istvaan system) as a defensible staging ground for his rebellion. So, I feel like it was a double-success for Horus, unfortunately.

[Veteran Sergeant]

what i ment in my comment was that the space wolves were a greater threat to horus at that time then the ultramarines.

:D That's just absurtarded. Horus identified the Ultramarines as the greatest threat to his plans, and that was exactly why he made sure they were as far away from Terra as possible, and otherwise engaged. You really need to let go of your Space Wolf bias, it is making you say silly things. The Space Wolves were definitely a force to be reckoned with, but when you choice of foes is a few thousand Space Wolves or two hundred and fifty thousand Ultramarines led by the greatest strategic mind in the Imperium, I think it's fairly obvious who is the bigger threat.

 

Of course the Wolves only having one successor chapter is a relic of when the legions were a lot smaller too.

Perhaps, but while the number of Second Founding Chapters has changed, the fluff about the number that the Space Wolves split into has not. If that is retconned or clarified in 6th Edition, okay, but the latest Space Wolf codex is only two and a half years old or so. The updated Legion numbers is older than that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Veteran Sergeant: Hendrik's opinion mayb be influenced by the contents of Prospero Burns, in which it is said that the two legions that could cause the most harm to Horus were the Thousand Sons (with their abilities) and the Wolves (with their ferocity), and the events that led up to the invasion of Prospero were the result of Chaos influencing both parties.

 

Both Legions were manipulated into conflict with each other in a gambit that they would tear each other apart, rendering them unable to oppose Horus.

 

I think you might want to check for bias in your own posts before commentating on others, as some might take an issue with Guilliman being called the greatest srtategic mind in the Imperium. Guilliman was a talented primarch, but i believe his strenght were more in logistical matters than pure strategy. I would wage that Horus, Russ, the Lion and maybe Sangy were superior field tacticians than Guilliman. This is no slight on Guilliman, as he possessed skills that each of the previous primarchs listed didnt have.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I would have to agree with WLK' assessment of Gulliman. Was he an idiot? No. After all he had what was probably the largest, most well-organized Legion alongside the Word Bearers in the final days before the Heresy. And he was able to collect almost every strategy known to man into a single work. But he was rigid. He is the kind of guy who reacts in either an A or B fashion. He has to think before every decision, he doesn't trust his instincts. It is probably why Horus left him alone because Gulliman would be the guy who would look at the Heresy and Isstvan V and say, "It's only a matter of time." I'm not saying this just because where the fluff is pointing. It just seems like it was always a numbers game to Gulliman. As a result while he was a brilliant strategist, he never could account for the Human Variable. It just wasn't in his grasp to do so. Ironically Lorgar is the polar opposite in that he is the most human of all the Primarchs.

 

But to a guy like Gulliman, if he thinks defeat is inevitable, then he will follow the most logical course which was to secure Ultramar. Fortify it so it could act as a refuge any Imperial citizenry or military who survived the Heresy.

 

Meanwhile, you have the Lion who is a combination of Lorgar's ability to read the Human Variable and Gulliman's logistic and as such he would have posed a much greater threat as he would have been fluid. He would be the Charismatic leader who could read a battle as it happened and be able to account for the individuals within that battle.

 

Leman Russ would forever be the unpredictable monkey wrench that could screw up even the best laid plans. It was like he had a knack for it.

 

Corax was the noble version of Night Haunter. He followed similar combact doctrines, but he went for the cold efficiency of making his enemies running circles chasing their own tails rather than the brutal terror tactics of the Night Lords.

 

It wasn't that Gulliman was a threat, it was that he was predictable and therefore Horus was able to checkmate him before he even moved a piece on the board.

[hendrik]

what i ment in my comment was that the space wolves were a greater threat to horus at that time then the ultramarines.

;) That's just absurtarded. Horus identified the Ultramarines as the greatest threat to his plans, and that was exactly why he made sure they were as far away from Terra as possible, and otherwise engaged. You really need to let go of your Space Wolf bias, it is making you say silly things. The Space Wolves were definitely a force to be reckoned with, but when you choice of foes is a few thousand Space Wolves or two hundred and fifty thousand Ultramarines led by the greatest strategic mind in the Imperium, I think it's fairly obvious who is the bigger threat.

nono, that's not what i meant at all! but since the ultras were so far away they posed a smaller thread at that moment then the wolves. think of it this way, you've got an entire magazine in your gun and only 5 meters behind you comes a dog rushing forward,seeking to attack you. now at the same moment a pack of dogs (the ultramarines) comes charging at you aswell, but they are atleast a mile away. what dog would you take care of first, and poses the greatest threat?

 

that's the whole point, the ultramarines were so far away they didn't really pose the biggest threat at that moment anymore. Horus got occupied besieging terra and knew the wolves and dark angels were coming in fast, he needed to delay them more than he needed to delay the ultramarines, since those would arrive way later anyway. not only could (and would) his plans fail, but the traitors would also find them trapped with the wolves and dark angels( which were also quite a sizeable force if i'm not mistaken) behind them, and the fists and bloodangels in front of them

[Epistolary Exander]

what i ment in my comment was that the space wolves were a greater threat to horus at that time then the ultramarines.

;) That's just absurtarded. Horus identified the Ultramarines as the greatest threat to his plans, and that was exactly why he made sure they were as far away from Terra as possible, and otherwise engaged. You really need to let go of your Space Wolf bias, it is making you say silly things. The Space Wolves were definitely a force to be reckoned with, but when you choice of foes is a few thousand Space Wolves or two hundred and fifty thousand Ultramarines led by the greatest strategic mind in the Imperium, I think it's fairly obvious who is the bigger threat.

nono, that's not what i meant at all! but since the ultras were so far away they posed a smaller thread at that moment then the wolves. think of it this way, you've got an entire magazine in your gun and only 5 meters behind you comes a dog rushing forward,seeking to attack you. now at the same moment a pack of dogs (the ultramarines) comes charging at you aswell, but they are atleast a mile away. what dog would you take care of first, and poses the greatest threat?

 

that's the whole point, the ultramarines were so far away they didn't really pose the biggest threat at that moment anymore. Horus got occupied besieging terra and knew the wolves and dark angels were coming in fast, he needed to delay them more than he needed to delay the ultramarines, since those would arrive way later anyway. not only could (and would) his plans fail, but the traitors would also find them trapped with the wolves and dark angels( which were also quite a sizeable force if i'm not mistaken) behind them, and the fists and bloodangels in front of them

 

And all the while the chaos forces are trapped the White Scars are doing doughnuts through enemy lines.

[eyeslikethunder]

Also In prospero burns Horus expresses disappointment at how much damage the 1k sons do to the SW's saying he had expected better. Also the wolves have the praetorians and sisters of silence with them

 

But to a guy like Gulliman, if he thinks defeat is inevitable, then he will follow the most logical course which was to secure Ultramar. Fortify it so it could act as a refuge any Imperial citizenry or military who survived the Heresy.

 

exactly maybe horus was able to predict( +info from chaos powers?) that RG would sit in ultramar the way he did rather than come to save the emperor. Therefore were very little threat at all

[eyeslikethunder]

@Epistolary Exander

which page is 4k quote in PB's? i cant find it

@vetern Sgt

Two key obstacles to my ambitions are the sons of prospero and wolves of Fenris.....the latter the only legion dangerous enough to represent a genuine military threat......Vlka Fenryka remain a stark and extant danger to me

 

is the quote the above are talking about

[hendrik]

@Epistolary Exander

which page is 4k quote in PB's? i cant find it

at the end of the story it's mentioned about 7000 space wolves were howling with russ. however most people seem to forget those were only the ones that were with him on the assault of tisca and not the ones elsewhere deployed on the planet, or nog even deployed at all, after all russ had only send in two waves of space wolves as i believe