Help versus Space Wolves

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ok well my friends plays a ridiculous 2000pt Space Wolf list, basically six squads of 5-man Grey Hunters w/meltagun in LasPlas razorbacks, three squads of 5-missile launcher Long Fangs, nine double-heavybolter speeders and led by RunePriest with Chooser.

 

All attempts I've taken at beating this list with my Blood Angels has failed. Does anyone have any thoughts? I've got 12k pts of BA so I could use any unit selections (except only have one Land Raider and no speeders or storm ravens).

 

Community thoughts on beating Razorspam? Please note I'd rather not razorspam myself.... but if that's the only choice, I'd love to get a Win against my friend :( Trust me, its friendly gaming but at the same time he's an ultra-competitive player.

[spec.ops]

To start, whats your thoughts of a take-all-comers competitive BA list that would give your friends list trouble.

 

This should tell us a lot.

[Sanguinarian]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

[Blitzkrieg861]

I play SW as well...

 

The Baals, assuming you can make decent use of your scout move or get first turn, will make pretty short work of the Long Fang squads. I take 3 Baals and would love to pour them into some Long Fangs. Remember, while they put out a lot of missiles, as soon as they start taking hits they start losing their power as well. Even knocking 2-3 of the out per squad (which shouldn't be too hard with a Baal) will really reduce their output next turn.

 

The Speeders will tear up infantry. That is a lot of heavy bolters regarless of whether or not you have a 3+ or even 2+ save. Feel No Pain may help here but AV13 and AV14 vehicles are your friend here. Hell, even AV12 they can't hurt. Baals, Preds, Dreds, Vindies, all are good choices here. Just be sure to protect your side armor as applicable. Speeders go down real fast to even Bolters. A Baal can lay hurt on these, maybe another reason to stock up and take 3 of them.

 

LasPlas Razors... Well, they aren't as fast as ours first off. I tend to, even on my "shooty" armies, have a solid core of assaulting units. Usually Mephiston and either a Raider with Death Company or a Raven with Death Company and a Dred. If you can zip a Raven or Raider towards his lines he has to deal with it. Although he has a lot of shooting, it doesn't mean he can let a Raider/Raven use meltas and assault cannons on his squishy AV11 vehicles. Nor can he let Mephiston, Death Company or a Furioso just have a field day in his back end. This will do one of two things. 1) Force him to shooty your assaulty stuff and get torn up from your Baals, Preds (and maybe Razorbacks) or 2) Shoot your Baals so he can protect his Long Fangs and Speeders allowing your nasty assaulty units a pick at whatever it is they want. The beauty of a Raider in a list like this is that only his Razorbacks and Long Fangs (sorta) can hurt it, and not even reliably to be honest. This means the two units who could really hurt those Baals, Vindies, Preds and Dreds are busy dumping massive amounts of shots into a Land Raider that realisticly will take a good 2 rounds of shooting to take down. At least. This will give you more free reign to hurt his more fragile but dangerous units.

 

Hope this helps. I honestly would be scared to fight BA with my SW but I can see it from both sides of the coin.

[Bartali]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

 

Is illegal for a start, and would be exactly the kind of list that would get tabled by the SW list.

 

Just plain old jumper/devs would probably be fine. Sure, you'll probably loose 10+ on the way in, but you'll table him once you're there

 

No Name (2000pts)
2000pt Blood Angels 5th Edition Roster (Standard)

Selections:

* HQ (125pts)

* Librarian (125pts) 
	* Power Armour
		Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack

* Elites (225pts)

* Sanguinary Priests (225pts) 
	* Sanguinary Priest
		* Power Armour
			Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack
	* Sanguinary Priest
		* Power Armour
			Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack
	* Sanguinary Priest
		* Power Armour
			Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack

* Troops (1260pts)

* Assault Squad (225pts) 
	9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Power Weapon

* Assault Squad (235pts) 
	9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Power Fist

* Assault Squad (235pts) 
	9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Power Fist

* Assault Squad (235pts) 
	9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Power Fist

* Assault Squad (235pts) 
	9x Assault Marines, Meltagun, Meltagun, Retain Jump Packs
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Power Fist

* Scout Squad (95pts) 
	Missile Launcher, 4x Scouts, 3x Sniper Rifle
	* Veteran Sergeant
		Combi Melta

* Heavy Support (390pts)

* Devestator Squad (130pts) 
	4x Devestator Marine, 4x Missile Launcher, Veteran Sergeant

* Devestator Squad (130pts) 
	4x Devestator Marine, 4x Missile Launcher, Veteran Sergeant

* Devestator Squad (130pts) 
	4x Devestator Marine, 4x Missile Launcher, Veteran Sergeant

Created with BattleScribe

[Sanguinarian]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

 

Is illegal for a start, and would be exactly the kind of list that would get tabled by the SW list.

 

Just plain old jumper/devs would probably be fine. Sure, you'll probably loose 10+ on the way in, but you'll table him once you're there

 

 

Curious as to why you think this is illegal? :) You might want to read Codex: BA again. This list meets the requisite FOC and would crush that SW list if played correctly. But we all know that even the best laid plan goes to heck as soon as the enemy is engaged!!! :)

 

***Reclusiarch = HQ

***15 DC & 3 DC Dreads = 4 Troops

***3 Furiosos = 3 Elites

***3 Rifleman Dreads = 3 Heavies

***LRC & 2-6 Drop Pods = Dedicated Transports

 

Three RM Dreads from the front and the 3 DC Dreads drop-podding behind those Long Fangs would cripple those Space Pups by Turn 2. :huh: Once that LRC full of our crazed DC and Reclusiarch drops down near a pod w/beacon, it's a wrap. Not to mention the other 2 Furiosos dropping in where needed,while the Libby Dread nullifies the Rune Priest.

[Leonaides]

Bartalli - whats illegal about that list? 1 HQ, 4 Troops choices (1 in a dedicated transport), 3 Elites and 3 HS. Unless its over the points?

[Sanguinarian]

Bartalli - whats illegal about that list? 1 HQ, 4 Troops choices (1 in a dedicated transport), 3 Elites and 3 HS. Unless its over the points?

 

Naked base points is not over and the # of pods (2-5, Libby would use Wings) would/could be the variable entries. ;)

[Corby]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

 

Is illegal for a start, and would be exactly the kind of list that would get tabled by the SW list.

 

Just plain old jumper/devs would probably be fine. Sure, you'll probably loose 10+ on the way in, but you'll table him once you're there

 

 

Curious as to why you think this is illegal? :) You might want to read Codex: BA again. This list meets the requisite FOC and would crush that SW list if played correctly. But we all know that even the best laid plan goes to heck as soon as the enemy is engaged!!! :)

 

***Reclusiarch = HQ

***15 DC & 3 DC Dreads = 4 Troops

***3 Furiosos = 3 Elites

***3 Rifleman Dreads = 3 Heavies

***LRC & 2-6 Drop Pods = Dedicated Transports

 

Three RM Dreads from the front and the 3 DC Dreads drop-podding behind those Long Fangs would cripple those Space Pups by Turn 2. ;) Once that LRC full of our crazed DC and Reclusiarch drops down near a pod w/beacon, it's a wrap. Not to mention the other 2 Furiosos dropping in where needed,while the Libby Dread nullifies the Rune Priest.

 

This list wouldn't crush the space wolves list the Op is describing even if played well. You'll pod in and get blown up by the Msu melta grey hunter teams as well as by the long fangs and razorbacks he has , before you can engage him in combat. You could certainly pop smoke when you land ,but that reduces any shooting damage you may inflict to him. And what if your opponent reserves? Then theres a huge uncertain element to where he'll come onto the board ( though this depends on the mission. But with Nine heavy bolter speeders he could scatter the objectives out , roll onto the unoccupied area of the board and hope to contest any far flung objectives.) , not to mention you'll be hitting your opponents army piece meal which allows him to use his whole army against a portion of yours.

[Sanguinarian]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

 

Is illegal for a start, and would be exactly the kind of list that would get tabled by the SW list.

 

Just plain old jumper/devs would probably be fine. Sure, you'll probably loose 10+ on the way in, but you'll table him once you're there

 

 

Curious as to why you think this is illegal? :) You might want to read Codex: BA again. This list meets the requisite FOC and would crush that SW list if played correctly. But we all know that even the best laid plan goes to heck as soon as the enemy is engaged!!! :)

 

***Reclusiarch = HQ

***15 DC & 3 DC Dreads = 4 Troops

***3 Furiosos = 3 Elites

***3 Rifleman Dreads = 3 Heavies

***LRC & 2-6 Drop Pods = Dedicated Transports

 

Three RM Dreads from the front and the 3 DC Dreads drop-podding behind those Long Fangs would cripple those Space Pups by Turn 2. ;) Once that LRC full of our crazed DC and Reclusiarch drops down near a pod w/beacon, it's a wrap. Not to mention the other 2 Furiosos dropping in where needed,while the Libby Dread nullifies the Rune Priest.

 

This list wouldn't crush the space wolves list the Op is describing even if played well. You'll pod in and get blown up by the Msu melta grey hunter teams as well as by the long fangs and razorbacks he has , before you can engage him in combat. You could certainly pop smoke when you land ,but that reduces any shooting damage you may inflict to him. And what if your opponent reserves? Then theres a huge uncertain element to where he'll come onto the board ( though this depends on the mission. But with Nine heavy bolter speeders he could scatter the objectives out , roll onto the unoccupied area of the board and hope to contest any far flung objectives.) , not to mention you'll be hitting your opponents army piece meal which allows him to use his whole army against a portion of yours.

 

You forget there are 9 Dreads on 2-5 Drop Pods and an LRC that may or may not deep-strike behind enemy lines dependent on the Mission, but it's all hypothesis and not gospel so arguing whether it's viable or not is moot. All 9 could start on the table + the LRC meaning 10 targets + 2-5 empty pods crashing down somewhere with or without Deathwind Launchers. :) The OP said he didn't want to Razor-spam, so I recommended Dread-spam, is all. :) To each their own.

 

That begs another question to the OP, do you randomize Missions or just the same Meatgrinder/Annihilation over and over? different Missions may produce different results.

[Dropsik]

Hi there!

 

SW player should table 9 dreadnaughts list with ease. Not only can he mess with you Drop Podding by putting everything in reserves, but he doesn't provide juicy targets for your dreadnaught's. Everything is fairly cheap, most also mobile. If he decide not to reserve, he'll just move out of threat range and shoot you to death. Meanwhile sending one or two suicide squads for taking of that LRC, or just counting on massive lascannon and missile fire to score immobile/destroyed result. I can only see the outcome as total massacre - excluding cases when dice gods hate SW players.

 

The jumpers list however would have a big advantage against that SW list.

 

Cheers!

[Morticon]

Here are my thoughts on the matter;

 

Firstly, and as a brief side note, its also why I prefer hybrid lists.

 

The great thing about SW is that theyre specialised in what they are going to be able to take out. The Razorbacks and ML Fangs take out transports, while the speeders drill infantry.

 

What you need is target saturation, here. Enough units that can do enough damage to any of those units.

 

Starting off- your kicker.

 

Vs. This list Mephiston is the most obvious choice.

Aside from the razors he has a severe lack of AP2- weaponry. Mephy can get up into their grills fast. Also, with S10 for the 50% time he fails his 4+ staff save, and 6 attacks, you force him into making some tough choices with regards the hvy bolter speeders. Either he moves under 6" and fires all, and then gets hit on 4s in combat, or moves over- reducing his fire output.

 

Additionally, there is no one unit that will be able to take mephy alone. And if the hunters need to use their meltas, they'll need to get out of the razors.

 

Next - Attack Bikers.

 

Id consider a bare minimum of 6 - (2x3 or 3x2 - id prefer 3x2 but this will depend on what you do with the other fat attack slot). Alternatively 2x 2MM + 1HB

But, if you dont have first turn, they're easy to conceal, and if you do, you can get them into firing positions really quickly, and with turbo boost you're getting a 3++ - meaning the missiles will be hard pressed to make a good choice.

Also, you're only looking at 2 wounds from each squad of speeders (1 if they have FNP!)

 

Then, id consider a 10man squad of marines, either supported by Corbulo in a nearby razor, or with a jumpy priest, to get close to the bikers. The heavy bolters are scary, but you're only looking at 1.5 deaths per squad with FNP.

 

VERY good odds. Theyre hardy enough to weather the storm, and easy enough to get a 4+ cover, not to mention being bulky enough to take the pesky 5man hunters.

 

Then, id consider a DC in rhino as your "point" unit. Let them take the fire where they can.

 

Fill this out with a few razors to help snipe out the razorbacks (the most important targets since theyre the only defense vs. Mephy.)

 

Then, you have one more thing to consider.

Personally, if i was theming to beat, I would throw in a 10man squad of Vanguard - 2 fists (or hammers). This will allow you to drill 2 fang squads from turn two.

 

Alternatively, if you dont want to throw that many poitns down, consider a sang guard squad to drop down behind enemy lines- they still have their 2+ save.

 

Using this BA list, you will need to focus fire on the razors.

Take the hits from the bolters and the MLs for a turn, and then let the Vanguard do their work, while the rest mops up. Obviously DC and Mephy along with the regular jumpers form your fighting vanguard - your immediate threat units. Followed by bikers as secondary threat units and then only the razors. The razors all have PW sarges so as to make sure youre winning in combat vs. the pups if you fight em.

 

In summary:

 

Mephy

Corbs

 

8 DC - PF

Rhino

10 RAS - 2MG, PF

5 RAS - MG, PW

Razor - TLLC (go twin las to make sure your shots on the razors count!)

5 RAS - MG, PW

Razor - TLLC

5 RAS - MG, PW

Razor - TLLC

 

3 Attack Bikes - 2MM, 1HB

3 Attack Bikes - 2MM, 1HB

10 Vanguard - TH, PF

 

2k

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Thanks so much for the feedback guys!

 

@Sanguinarian, yes we always randomize the mission. I'd say 80% of the time we'll play a standard book mission and 20% we play something from the Battle Missions.

 

@Corby, yes those are the tactics I've been facing.

 

@Bartali, that's a list I love running! Just haven't gotten it to jive versus my friend and pull a win lol.

 

@Morticon, thanks so much man that list looks great plus an explanation of employment really helps out SO much. As an aside, I'm going to have to practice my "VV Drop"... I've never used these guys because it makes me so nervous that I'll place too close and mishap, or too far away and fail the charge.

 

 

edit: spelling.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think a DoA army can take this list as the SW army is sorely lacking in melee prowess. A squad of VV will probably take care of one pack of Long Fangs. I fought a similar list with my Khorne daemons and swamped them in melee very early on. As Morticon has said Mephiston would work very well against them.

 

G :)

[OhKillerRabbit]

Morticon's list seems great, Im gonna try it as well in my 2k point games ASAP!

[Morticon]

@Morticon, thanks so much man that list looks great plus an explanation of employment really helps out SO much. As an aside, I'm going to have to practice my "VV Drop"... I've never used these guys because it makes me so nervous that I'll place too close and mishap, or too far away and fail the charge.

 

Remember once you roll for all ten, you can then split them up and deploy in two locations! And also remember, using Corbulo means those nerves are abated somewhat!! With the reroll, its a bit less risky! Not to mention the d6 !

[Morollan]

Ok well my friends plays a ridiculous 2000pt Space Wolf list, basically six squads of 5-man Grey Hunters w/meltagun in LasPlas razorbacks, three squads of 5-missile launcher Long Fangs, nine double-heavybolter speeders and led by RunePriest with Chooser.

 

To be perfectly honest, if your opponent wants to spend a big chunk of his points on 9 speeders that basically can't do anything to your army then I say let him. They can't damage your vehicles unless you let them get behind you and even if all 9 of them open fire with both weapons on one of your squads do you know how many marines they'll kill (assuming FNP) on average? Four! Ignore them utterly and concentrate everything you've got on taking out his Long Fangs and Razorbacks. Flanking Baals are nice, I'd even be tempted to go with Flamestorm Baals depending on how your opponent normally deploys his Long Fangs. If he has a tendency to park them in cover then a Flamestorm template will put a serious crimp in their day.

[MayorDaley]

If the SW player doesn't have any WG in any of his units; then his army is pretty much LD 8. A Libby with Fear The Darkness, could get those LFs out of whatever piece of cover they are in.

 

Food for thought.

[Morticon]

Ok well my friends plays a ridiculous 2000pt Space Wolf list, basically six squads of 5-man Grey Hunters w/meltagun in LasPlas razorbacks, three squads of 5-missile launcher Long Fangs, nine double-heavybolter speeders and led by RunePriest with Chooser.

 

To be perfectly honest, if your opponent wants to spend a big chunk of his points on 9 speeders that basically can't do anything to your army then I say let him. They can't damage your vehicles...

 

You're looking at a 200% chance to get a glancing. Thats all you need to stun-lock.

[Corby]

Can you say 9 Dreadnoughts!?!

 

***3 Furiosos (1 Libby) in pods w/1 beacon

***3 DC Dreads in pods w/1 beacon

***3 Rifleman Dreads (dual Auto Cannons)

***1 Reclusiarch and 15 DC in LRC (deep-strike on either beacon)

 

Is illegal for a start, and would be exactly the kind of list that would get tabled by the SW list.

 

Just plain old jumper/devs would probably be fine. Sure, you'll probably loose 10+ on the way in, but you'll table him once you're there

 

 

Curious as to why you think this is illegal? :huh: You might want to read Codex: BA again. This list meets the requisite FOC and would crush that SW list if played correctly. But we all know that even the best laid plan goes to heck as soon as the enemy is engaged!!! ;)

 

***Reclusiarch = HQ

***15 DC & 3 DC Dreads = 4 Troops

***3 Furiosos = 3 Elites

***3 Rifleman Dreads = 3 Heavies

***LRC & 2-6 Drop Pods = Dedicated Transports

 

Three RM Dreads from the front and the 3 DC Dreads drop-podding behind those Long Fangs would cripple those Space Pups by Turn 2. :nuke: Once that LRC full of our crazed DC and Reclusiarch drops down near a pod w/beacon, it's a wrap. Not to mention the other 2 Furiosos dropping in where needed,while the Libby Dread nullifies the Rune Priest.

 

This list wouldn't crush the space wolves list the Op is describing even if played well. You'll pod in and get blown up by the Msu melta grey hunter teams as well as by the long fangs and razorbacks he has , before you can engage him in combat. You could certainly pop smoke when you land ,but that reduces any shooting damage you may inflict to him. And what if your opponent reserves? Then theres a huge uncertain element to where he'll come onto the board ( though this depends on the mission. But with Nine heavy bolter speeders he could scatter the objectives out , roll onto the unoccupied area of the board and hope to contest any far flung objectives.) , not to mention you'll be hitting your opponents army piece meal which allows him to use his whole army against a portion of yours.

 

You forget there are 9 Dreads on 2-5 Drop Pods and an LRC that may or may not deep-strike behind enemy lines dependent on the Mission, but it's all hypothesis and not gospel so arguing whether it's viable or not is moot. All 9 could start on the table + the LRC meaning 10 targets + 2-5 empty pods crashing down somewhere with or without Deathwind Launchers. :nuke: The OP said he didn't want to Razor-spam, so I recommended Dread-spam, is all. ;) To each their own.

 

That begs another question to the OP, do you randomize Missions or just the same Meatgrinder/Annihilation over and over? different Missions may produce different results.

 

I'm not forgetting the dreadnoughts and drop pods. I don't know where you got that impression. If you were to start the dreadnoughts on the table you've basically thrown away the points you spent on drop pods ( deathwinds do jack all to vehicles , minor damage to infantry and can't fire the launcher on drop not to mention yout opponent can hide tanks behind them giving them cover if needed , though that last point is an afterthought) , and you'd then have a huge portion of your army walking towards the enemy , slowly I might add , while the space wolve army can deal with the rest of your force. Having a large target satuartion means nothing if those "targets" have no means to threat the opponent ( and lets face walking furioso dreads , unless they're libro dreads have no means of threatening an opponent unless they're in charge range , which if they're walking won't be happening till late into the game)

 

As for dealing with space wolves , I definitely would advise against razorspam , that space wolve list does quite a number on razorspam (loads of high strength shooting , something razorspam falls over against) , Long fangs loath Av 13 in large quantitys (as missiles arn't so good at penetrating it.) If you're not running at least 2 or 3 Av 13 vehicles I recommend doing so. his list as described sounds very defensive rather than the typical take all comers space wolves list (with beefy grey hunter sqauds in rhinos for pushing mid-field beating up other units etc). A BA jumper list or similar aggressive list may be the right trick.

[Morollan]

Ok well my friends plays a ridiculous 2000pt Space Wolf list, basically six squads of 5-man Grey Hunters w/meltagun in LasPlas razorbacks, three squads of 5-missile launcher Long Fangs, nine double-heavybolter speeders and led by RunePriest with Chooser.

 

To be perfectly honest, if your opponent wants to spend a big chunk of his points on 9 speeders that basically can't do anything to your army then I say let him. They can't damage your vehicles...

 

You're looking at a 200% chance to get a glancing. Thats all you need to stun-lock.

 

200%? If he's using AV11 then they can be glanced but as he said he'd rather avoid razorspam I assume he's either going for higher AV vehicles or a DoA list (or variant).

[Morticon]

Ok well my friends plays a ridiculous 2000pt Space Wolf list, basically six squads of 5-man Grey Hunters w/meltagun in LasPlas razorbacks, three squads of 5-missile launcher Long Fangs, nine double-heavybolter speeders and led by RunePriest with Chooser.

 

To be perfectly honest, if your opponent wants to spend a big chunk of his points on 9 speeders that basically can't do anything to your army then I say let him. They can't damage your vehicles...

 

You're looking at a 200% chance to get a glancing. Thats all you need to stun-lock.

 

200%? If he's using AV11 then they can be glanced but as he said he'd rather avoid razorspam I assume he's either going for higher AV vehicles or a DoA list (or variant).

 

Not too tough to get side armour with fast moving vehicles and a 36" range - especially if you using baals where you need to advance to make use of the 24"- showing your flanks even more.

[eyeslikethunder]

200%? If he's using AV11 then they can be glanced but as he said he'd rather avoid razorspam I assume he's either going for higher AV vehicles or a DoA list (or variant).

 

Yeah

2 glances on average. Still these speeders would be the element of his list that looks weakest to me against BA. They are are 1/4 of his points and weak against FNP and high armour. What are his RP powers or does he look at your list then choose?

[dswanick]

If the SW player doesn't have any WG in any of his units; then his army is pretty much LD 8. A Libby with Fear The Darkness, could get those LFs out of whatever piece of cover they are in.

 

Food for thought.

Long Fangs are Ld9. And at 2k, 4 of his 6 GH squads could have Ld9 or 10.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

He always takes Living Lightning every time-- and the second power is either Murderous Hurricane, Storm Caller, or Tempests Wrath depending on his whim. He chooses the 2nd power before I reveal my list, so no shenanigans going on there... but he knows I really like jumpers.