Sniper Scouts or Bolter Scouts for backfield objectives?

[DarkGuard]

I did a search for this and couldn't find anything too explicit. Now I was talking to a friend of mine at my local store and we got into a discussion about Scouts. He likes Scouts, but dislikes sniper Scouts, preferring bolter Scouts for backfield objective sitting and shotgun Scouts for disruption. Upon querying him on this he explained that in his experience sniper Scouts had done less damage than bolter Scouts. Although they have a longer range, the low BS and poisoned nature of them means about 25% of their attacks will cause wounds, and for a small unit this isn't too great. Bolter Scouts, however, have a similar damage output at 24", and the lack of damage beyond that doesn't mean too much. But at 12" range they double their damage output, which is quite handy when you have an objective nearby.

 

So what do you guys think? I'm asking this because in my Terminator/Scout list the Scouts are representing Veteran Scouts (obviously I'm using WS/BS 3, unfortunately), and as their Veterans first and foremost they don't use common Scout weaponry, such as the sniper rifle and shotguns. I've been using the sniper Scouts though to sort of represent them with Stalker Pattern Boltguns, with Telion in the squad of course, but it would look better thematically to have them with boltguns instead.

 

So do you think it makes much of a different to backfield Scouts about whether they have a sniper rifle or boltgun? The way I see it they go to ground a lot, and snipers don't do much damage either in my experience, when using Telion's squad I'm always relying on him to do damage, and even he doesn't do too much (though that could be because I have yet to roll a 6 with him).

[Kaldoth]

It depends on what your scouts are doing for your army. Sniper scouts aren't that great for whittling down units quickly. You are correct when you say bolter scouts have a higher damage output. But, against enemy HQs and more elite choices (nobs, fexes, multi wound models) sniper scouts can wreak havoc with their poisoned weaponry and the pinning results. The loadout should depend on the job.

 

-Kal

[Grey Mage]

Snipers disruption abilities through pinning checks can win games by themselves. The ability to force important enemy units to do all of nothing for a round has a huge impact on the game. That being said the chances are low, though not as low as statistics would likely tell us- alot of my opponents seem to roll complete crap on their leadership checks.

 

The other thing they bring to a force is a reliable way of dealing with monstrous creatures. While torrent of fire can sometimes get the job done theres little better than sniper scouts for taking down wraithlords and daemonprinces- where their longer range means they can get the job done without being in charge range of the winged beasties and they can support the front lines without exposing themselves.

 

Either way though giving them cloacks will dramatically increase their survivability against most opponents- 2+ saving scouts are nothing to laugh at when it comes to holding an objective and are one of the reasons why I reliably bring a whirlwind in my lists.

[Laughingdagger]

Snipers disruption abilities through pinning checks can win games by themselves. The ability to force important enemy units to do all of nothing for a round has a huge impact on the game. That being said the chances are low, though not as low as statistics would likely tell us- alot of my opponents seem to roll complete crap on their leadership checks.

 

The other thing they bring to a force is a reliable way of dealing with monstrous creatures. While torrent of fire can sometimes get the job done theres little better than sniper scouts for taking down wraithlords and daemonprinces- where their longer range means they can get the job done without being in charge range of the winged beasties and they can support the front lines without exposing themselves.

 

Either way though giving them cloacks will dramatically increase their survivability against most opponents- 2+ saving scouts are nothing to laugh at when it comes to holding an objective and are one of the reasons why I reliably bring a whirlwind in my lists.

 

2+ scouts are only possible with a techmarin or lysander in the list, but they are night unkillable without flame or whirlwinds/tfires.

[greatcrusade08]

i use both units, but before i can answer which is better id ask what opponents do you face reguarly (what armies)

if its orks/IG/eldar then bolters would serve you better, but anything with MCs or MEQ is a snipers job

[spartan249]

I prefer Sniper Scouts because of the extra reach of the Rifles in addition to the Rending capability of the rifles. This is taken in the context of me packing my short range firepower in other units.

[Kierdale]

For holding a backfield objective I'd say snipers. I'm just returning from a game now in which my opponent had a squad of snipers camped at the back and Throne were they hard to shift! Their sniping didn't actually achieve a lot (the Ultramarines' sights were evidently faulty today) but they were sufficiently irritating, and with good range.

[Kingkaneda]

I ALWAYS use a squad of sniper scouts with Telion and a ML. Mainly because I think Telion looks badass, but besides that it is a great objective camper. Making sure the sniper have a long los without terrain or units in the way will up their dmg output enormously when you are lucky enough to roll a few 6's to rend. I've had reasonable succes with them against monstrous creatures(doing 2-3 wounds a round) and marines(4-5 pinning tests in a game will make sure he fails at least 1).

 

But their dmg is secundary. COmbining them with lysander wil get them 2+ cover saves en will force your opponent to try and get in CC with your scouts, or get in flame range. So basically you know what your opponent wants to do with his units, wich is priceless.

 

Lately I have been using scout bikes in my list as well to put the clustermines on the terrain the snipers are camping. This will make sure they can beat weak cc units like wolfscouts and kommandos that come from behind.

 

Scouts are great units when you use them correctly, but are far less forgiving when compared to tactical marines.

[greatcrusade08]

Scouts are great units when you use them correctly

 

im sure ive heard this before... just cant think where :tu:

[Kingkaneda]

Scouts are great units when you use them correctly

 

im sure ive heard this before... just cant think where :mellow:

 

Probably any opponent using scouts :P

 

My opponents always underestimate my scouts, even after they win games for me.

[maturin]

2+ scouts are only possible with a techmarin or lysander in the list, but they are night unkillable without flame or whirlwinds/tfires.

 

Well, or if you go to ground...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm with the sniper side of the argument -- I've got a full ten man squad of them, and they're great for all the reasons already put up there. One other benefit they have over bolter scouts is Rending; I've popped Rhinos with them in the past, which is always good for laugh.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for all the comments on this thread so far, they have been informative :huh:. At the moment my store is still, regrettably MEQ, though it's going more hybrid than mech fortunately, hopefully it'll stay that way. I'll try out the sniper Scouts again, this time with Telion and a missile launcher, which will fit into this list you can see here. Not sure about my Terminator/Scout list but I can see that going the way of Loganwing to be honest, as the options there best fit my Chapter's fluff...

 

So would you agree that while the bolters may give better tactical flexibility, particularly in deployment options, the snipers add something you can't really get elsewhere?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, what bolter and shotgun scouts give you over sniper scouts is mobile firepower. Sniper rifles are Heavy weapons, so sniper scouts camp in one spot the whole game. If you want to be able to maneuver your scouts, the other options are more appropriate.

[VoteForPedro]

Sniper scouts for me.

 

I generally play a Sternguard heavy Pedro Kantor build and so don't suffer from a lack of scoring units. I don't want Sternguard sitting miles from the action though so I can see the use of a sniper scout unit sitting in backfield and going to ground, maybe even coming on from reserve to reduce the shooting they'll take.

 

The key (imo) though is to not lose sight of what ranged scouts are: Objective camping troops units. They aren't there to be killly death machines and as they'll often be going to ground there is a good chance that they won't be shooting too much anyway!

[Kingkaneda]

The key (imo) though is to not lose sight of what ranged scouts are: Objective camping troops units. They aren't there to be killly death machines and as they'll often be going to ground there is a good chance that they won't be shooting too much anyway!

 

That is so true. I sometimes rely on them killing way too much beacause I had some luck with them in past battles(killing 4 plamacannon devs in 1 round), but their main job is scoring and being tough in cover(at wich they excel).

[DarkGuard]

The key (imo) though is to not lose sight of what ranged scouts are: Objective camping troops units. They aren't there to be killly death machines and as they'll often be going to ground there is a good chance that they won't be shooting too much anyway!

 

That is so true. I sometimes rely on them killing way too much beacause I had some luck with them in past battles(killing 4 plamacannon devs in 1 round), but their main job is scoring and being tough in cover(at wich they excel).

 

I think this is the point that my friend was alluding to, they don't kill much anyway, even with snipers, so if something comes close to them unless you have another unit around you've got problems. Giving them boltguns alleviates this somewhat as they can then stand a better chance at killing whatever is closer, though they may still have problems with that, but with snipers they are better off going to ground a lot. In my recent game in my Terminator/Scout list I think Telion killed a Purifier and that was all, they did nothing else, and when Crowe came closer to them they didn't have weight of fire to help. Boltguns may have helped here, especially as at range most of their damage is coming from Telion or the missile launcher.

 

Just playing Devil's advocate here, I'll most likely be using a 5 man squad with snipers, ML and Telion, and I know the reasons why you take snipers, but I'm trying to get underneath the reasoning of my friend and discussion is the best way to do that :P.

[Kingkaneda]

I always take a full group with telion to take advantage of his stealth as much as possible. If I'd want to keep it cheaper, I'd just take 5 snipers with cloaks.

 

In a 5 man squad with telion, you are paying 35 points for a BS upgrade with an extra shot that you can allocate if it wounds. In a 10 man squad you are paying only 20 points for those upgrades.

 

This also makes them much more survivable. Shooting at them basically becomes a no-no for your opponent, since he would be wasting too much firepower to kill a troop choice.

[VoteForPedro]

I think this is the point that my friend was alluding to, they don't kill much anyway, even with snipers, so if something comes close to them unless you have another unit around you've got problems.

 

That's a pretty valid point, I hadn't considered it that was to be honest!

 

I think given that both units are likely to be backfield objective camping the main selling point for sniper scouts for me is the extra range. Also the minor chance or rending means you'll plink something every so often. Realistically you'll likely be in in trouble if your opponent gets anything decent near your objective holders regardless of what you give them. As a result I tend to push forward with most of my army giving them plenty of more urgent targets.

 

Thinking about it maybe there is even an argument to be made for using shotgun or bolt pistol/ccw scouts to guard a backfield objective: we are generally all in agreement that your shooting damage is negligible as you're hiding like a coward on the ground all game and it's a waste of time people shooting you back due to cover. To clear the objective their best bet is close combat so defending against that could be the way to go! Just a though, could turn out to be rubbish of course!

[DarkGuard]

I always take a full group with telion to take advantage of his stealth as much as possible. If I'd want to keep it cheaper, I'd just take 5 snipers with cloaks.

 

In a 5 man squad with telion, you are paying 35 points for a BS upgrade with an extra shot that you can allocate if it wounds. In a 10 man squad you are paying only 20 points for those upgrades.

 

This also makes them much more survivable. Shooting at them basically becomes a no-no for your opponent, since he would be wasting too much firepower to kill a troop choice.

 

Hmm, you see if I'm paying for a small objective holding unit I will normally also just pay for the snipers and leave them there. However, beyond holding objectives it doesn't have much utility. Throwing in Telion even into a small unit has its uses, as paired with a missile launcher it becomes decent at knocking out light vehicles and Telion can pick out special weapons etc in units (still have yet to roll a rend with Telion, 7 games or so and counting). So even though he might not be as good value as in a 10 man squad doesn't mean he shouldn't be used in a 5 man squad. Furthermore, I've used the big unit before, and like all big units it suffers from deployment problems as in fitting them into a ruin or terrain piece without bunching them up too much for blasts. Also in using them I've not seen too much of a damage difference between the 5 man squad and the 10 man squad, there is one, but significant enough to have be running them again and again. I also feel that 5 men with a 2+ cover is often good enough, just keep heavy flamers away.

 

Another thing to consider is that if you're infiltrating them and need to hide them out of LoS it's easier to do so with a small squad than a big one. Also, for a big squad you're planning to combat squad that'll leave one half of the unit without Stealth, whereas a small unit will always have it. Of course it's a matter of personal preference, but for a small unit that's not going to do too much damage I'd much rather pay less points and put more killy stuff into other parts of my army.

 

@VoteForPedro, I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and for those that run combat Scouts in a heavy flamer Storm designed to pop in later from Outflank they can often end up as rearfield objective snatchers!

[Kingkaneda]

There is some solid reasoning in there, I can see your point. I might try out the smaller group a few times to see how it feels. I think I like Telion too much for my own good though, and thats why I put him in a bigger squad. Those few extra sniper shots increase my chance to pin slightly.

[CaptinLoken]

The Hardest thing to say ... is at my hobby shop there is way to many Fearless units on the board to contest...

 

GS really has ironed out the 4 variations of scouts and the best uses in those times.

 

BTW as for all the little telion bits... My telion has killed storm ravens to dreadnoughts ... its amazing when he does... but its all luck in the most part...

remember his shot is strength 4 rend...

 

Now onto snipers... the Reason I favor them over the Bolter is ... frankly the Tactical Marine does it better... and comes with more options to aid moving and attacking closer in range. Scouts lack an assault weapon option for a reason... they should be waiting for the moment when the enemy closes and they launch there return...

 

In say this Snipers fit the niche most people see the need for Scouts so ... Hands down more often then not you should be using Snipers.

 

I do find it interesting to note still that ... scout squads can be set up to cheese out wound allocations if you do it correctly. Due to the FREE option to have both a sargent, sniper , CCW BP, Bolter, and Shotgun in the squad plus the lingering Heavy weapon... makes to be an open option to take advantage one day...

 

not that it matters much ... Scouts shouldn't be getting into that bad of a fight where they should need to...but its there.

 

Snipers are best imo

[DarkGuard]

Snipers are best imo

 

Is that just because Tactical squads have bolters and Assault Marines have CCW/BP etc? Maybe you could say Devs have heavy weapons at 36" so the Scouts would be better off with shotguns? :).

 

You are correct in that sniper rifles fill a niche role in the army, the closest things to it is either the Whirlwind with it's ability to pin, at -1Ld I believe, and Sternguard with their hellfire poisoned ammo, each of these units bring one of the Scout sniper's role to the table. However, especially for a small squad, you don't get much damage out of a sniper squad, even at range, due to their poor BS. What's the most common thing people say about this then? Take more of them. But what if you don't want to or can't take more, thanks to points and monetary restrictions?

 

One thing is to take Telion, a rather simple conversion and the ML and give them a role against mech and special characters. And the other thing could be as simple as giving them boltgun, because then you more or less equal the output of a 10 man sniper squad, although only at 2/3s the range, but if you weren't doing much damage at that range anyway then does it matter? Telion and the ML would have been the guys doing the most damage at that range in a 5 man squad, and they still can thanks to their range. And as a lot of armies are MEQ you have the same likelihood to hit and wound against Marines with boltguns as you do with snipers (apart from bikers, Plague Marines and Dreadknights of course), and so when they're closer to the objective you can do more damage. The loss of pinning isn't a massive loss against Marine armies IMO thanks the blanket Ld9 which is almost always present, you're very unlikely to pin a unit.

 

Again, I like the idea of Scout snipers, and will be using them in my next game, but this discussion is proving useful for understanding my friend's thinking and I may try out bolter Scouts on the home objective instead.

[Jehoel]

If you are using a full 10 man squad of scouts, why not have half of them with bolters and the other half with sniper rifles, then combat squad the two weapon load outs? Has anyone tried that?

[DarkGuard]

If you are using a full 10 man squad of scouts, why not have half of them with bolters and the other half with sniper rifles, then combat squad the two weapon load outs? Has anyone tried that?

 

This is indeed a good tactics and one that I imagine some people do, although it seems to be more common to have shotguns and CCWs. However, some people, including myself, believe that there's no point taking a 10 man unit if you're going to combat squad it anyway, you might as well take two 5 man squads and get the extra Sergeant. Of course, you'd have to have the extra Troops slot and points, which is why you may take the 10 man squad to begin with, if you don't have the points. However, for boltguns this could work, as in a full squad they'd also work. Note that what I've said doesn't apply to Tactical Marines, as even if you're planning to combat squad them you need the 10 man squad for special and heavy weapons.

 

Also, as an aside my snipers did something today! They shook a Killa Kan. The missile launcher did nothing, missing and then failing to wound a Big Mek over two turns, and as Telion was guiding it both times that tells you all you need to know about my luck in that game.