Land Raider Choices

[Brother Orifiel]

Hello folks, I'd like to ask for some wise input from the community here as a newcomer to forums of 40K inclination.

 

I used to play around mid 4th edition as Eldar and occasionally C/SM. Recently I saw the new grey knight models out in plastic and after having read some 40K fluffy novels I decided I MUST get back into the hobby.

 

Question is, is it absolutely unacceptable to use a land raider redeemer in an army of GK? My army composition is pretty simple, mainly strike squids (Squads?) with relatively standard equipment aside from lavish slappings of halberds (I really really like the versatility factor of GK and I am totally abhorred by the idea of solely using the majortiy of my GK as a shooty army, which I personally find as an incredibly dull concept.) I like counter charging and slow manouvers coupled with brilliantly timed assaults, (Curse my high elf mentality.) I'm now considering adding pallies as my elite choice. (With a hint of inceration.)

 

What I've wanted to do in plop them into a land raider redeemer and using it as a counter charging beast machine of doom. Also, if I have a redeemer/crusader it would allow me to have my HQ (A GM) in this transport also (I believe).

 

The reason I really like the redeemer is because of the totally bossmode flame template weapons, (And in my opinion, if people don't think flame template weapons are the coolest thing ever they are not truly inquisitorial at heart.) and the extra capacity to include my HQ choice.

 

My army is not meant to be competetive, and I am somewhat of a newcomer (To these rules and army) to make much of a judgement option. Note this means that I do not need a 100% I am going to wipe your face in your own blood on the filthy broken floor after finishing you with my tournie army, but I would like an army that is at least -capable-.

 

What I'm asking is, because I LOVE the redeemer, is it viable in any way on the table top? After asking a few friends they seemed to suggest that it is absolutely a waste of points and should never ever ever be fielded even in an army that is primarily meant for fun as is it so bad. Is there any merit to that? Would anyone using a redeemer be branded instantly a failure?

 

NB: Arguments for or against the other land raiders based on gameplay is what I'm looking for, I've already pretty much decided I think the redeemer is probably the coolest of the bunch. Is pwnhammer really mandatory? If I don't take a lasraider how else should I pop tanks efficiently? (Other than dreadknights as I think they look out of place personally.)

 

 

 

TL;DR Can I play a land raider redeemer in an army without being laughed at and lynched by a mob of angry gamers. PS thanks for reading and sorry for any inciteful mental images my text may have conjured but at the same time I take little or no responsability.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I actually consider the Redeemer to be one of the better variants, especially for a Grey Knights army. It has a fairly large cargo capacity, can be given a pintle-mounted multi-melta, and then if you slap psybolt ammunition on it's twin-linked assault cannon, is capable of either taking out armor (with the multi-melta and "psycannon") or infantry, especially if you also slap on the psyflame ammunition.

 

I like my standard Land Raider for firepower at range, but I'm all over the Redeemer for firepower up close. It's actually the Land Raider Crusader I'm least enamoured of, because why take a Crusader when I can take a Redeemer?

 

I say ignore your friends, go with what you like or feel drawn to, and savor every moment when you slam it down their throats by wiping out entire squads with it's flamers then charging the close-combat cargo into their lines :D Nicely and politely, of course.

[the jeske]

is it viable in any way on the table top?

no

 

After asking a few friends they seemed to suggest that it is absolutely a waste of points and should never ever ever be fielded even in an army that is primarily meant for fun as is it so bad. Is there any merit to that?

and they are right.

 

If I don't take a lasraider how else should I pop tanks efficiently?

by not trying to play GK the way there arent suppose to be played[aka assault army] and using shoting stuff like rifleman , mass rending psycannon , henchmans[if you happen to play cortez razor spams]+ their razors etc.

 

 

 

 

It's actually the Land Raider Crusader I'm least enamoured of, because why take a Crusader when I can take a Redeemer?

because sponson mounted flamers are stupid , short range and on a wide tank like a LR it is hard to use more then one ? while at the same time the crusader can have everything the red has , the AC , sponsons that work even on the move , the same MM etc.

 

I say ignore your friends, go with what you like or feel drawn to, and savor every moment when you slam it down their throats by wiping out entire squads with it's flamers then charging the close-combat cargo into their lines

if your wiping out something with a red durning shoting phase the there is a good chance of not having units to charge in range .

[Inquisitor Fox]

Except that the hurricane sponsons are a laugh at anything more than 12", and I'd rather have the AP3 flamer template than a handful of rapid fire bolters, thank you very much. Being able to have even a single strength 7 ap 3 flame template is incredible, and while you aren't likely to hit with both, that's when you can fire the "psycannon" or multi-melta as well, or simply move 12" and fire a single flame template. Since we tend to concentrate special weapons with psycannons in the squads, having vehicles that can have cover ignoring templates or handle bunched hordes is incredibly useful.

 

You may find sponson mounted flamers "stupid" and insist that there is only one playstyle for every army, but I have to completely disagree with you. :nuke:

[Okidus]

aside from the issues above, which are all valid arguments against a LRR, the LRR must be within melta range to get any use out of its flamers. Chances are good that they will pop your tank and you are out 250+ points, while best case scenario you annihilate a 10man squad of marines w a single flame shot (200pts) you are still out 50-70 points.

[Inquisitor Fox]

As a thought though, with what are they going to pop an AV14 tank from outside 'melta' range when said tank can use a psychic power to shrug off stuns and shakens, and has enough weapons to ignore several weapon destroyed results? If they're within melta range with a meltagun, they're within range to be burned to death. Not a lot of infantry units want to take that risk. If they close to get him inside melta range they'll be eating even a single flame template to the face as he can move 12" and shoot one with PoTMS.

 

Otherwise they're looking at lascannons from long range, and the odds of destroying a Land Raider in one shot with a lascannon are fairly laughable. It'll be multiple turns for them to pull that off, in which case he's protected his terminators and other targets from anti-tank weaponry for multiple turns. If his goal is to advance towards the 'bad guys' firing off flame templates or psycannon shots, then dump cargo into their lines and go around flaming things, the LRR is the tank of choice for this. It's an aggressive style, but there's a lot to be said for playing aggressive when they're expecting you to sit back and shoot.

[Brother Orifiel]

Jeske, care to elaborate on that "no"? Also thanks for the tips for anti lasraider.

 

Taking in mind, again, that I am not attempting to play competetively. Are you suggesting that it is so bad that it is totally useless in normal, pretty casual games, despite what I see as a tactically more interesting and dynamic option that is it totally unplayable in an army? Is the internal balance really that horrible in armies these days?

 

Thanks for the input Nic, I definately agree that there is something to be said for aggressive play even if it may not be particularly standard. If I get the raider in very close up, (And no, that doesn't mean charging into melta range of the anti tank squad in my opponent's armies. More like moving in whilst hopefully staying out of LoS of some units or atleast obscures whilst roasting the wretched souls of boring shooty soldiers that are seeking cover untill they are but puddles of the foul goo that is their composition.) it'd work like a blast, and be far more interesting.

 

Thanks also to Okidus, it does seem that is the case. Despite this, I tend to be highly averse to math hammering. It never, ever, works out to be the case for me in any game I've played. Too many assumptions that I see as being unfathomable for my liking.

 

I'd like to add in that, whilst this land raider may draw lots of fire, (Which is what I oh so want to happen,) as it rears its fugly head out of cover to advance on the enemies to assault + unleash flamey death, I can use that surely as a good time to push in with my halberd SS (Which are quite scary) if oppertunity permits. That's where the real killy aspect is. (Which I see as just perfectly dynamic, and somewhat more... exciting than the dice roll games of dedicated shooty or assault rush armies.)

[number6]

My problem with the LRR is the sponson flamestorms. As noted earlier, I feel like template weapons of any kind are unsuitable on a vehicle that large, long, and wide. If instead there was a single flamestorm where the AssCan is -- and, say, heavy bolters or AssCans on the sponsons -- you wouldn't be able to keep me away from it! :lol:

 

The LRR is an incredibly popular variant in my gaming circle -- in fact I am now the lone user of the LR Crusader :lol: -- but even its strongest proponents admit that it's more KEWL than GOOD. And I agree: it's very cool, but not really so good.

 

The fact that there is virtually no practical way to ever use both flamestorm cannons really puts me off of it. And in my gaming circle, you rarely see LRRs last past their ability to deliver even just one template smackdown on an enemy before being blown up.

 

In total, I don't think the LRR to be a very competitive choice. :(

 

But that doesn't mean it's a bad choice, especially for more casual play. It's still a land raider. And you really can't let one of those things -- no matter what variant it is -- rampage around for too long uncontested. The Redeemer's potential to roast anything not in TDA and deliver an assault payload must be respected, even if (IMHO) ther are better land raiders for the task. (See, e.g., the awesomesauce land raider CRUSADER! best land raider ever made! :lol: )

 

I would never use a LRR. But I don't think that means you can't get some decent use of them. And you can even make a decently competitive list using a LRR provided you balance out its extremely limited profile -- which is nothing other than stupid-simple "drive up ASAP and roast something" -- in your army list, you should be more or less OK. I.e., load up on shooting! You'll need as many psycannons, twin-linked autocannons, and lascannons as you can muster. If you take a redeemer -- and spend even more points on any kind of assault unit inside -- even just Troops Terminators sans a character! -- you better spend pretty much every other point you have available to balance your list out appropriately. You need to make sure your opponent has a reason to focus attention on something other than your LRR and its cargo. And at the same time, you need to strand infantry on the table such that it will fear the LRR and its cargo. Both of these goals can only be accomplished with a strong shooting phase.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There is some merit for the Crusader if you want a large capacity transport. I first started to play Draigowing with a Crusader because it was an easy way to learn how to play this particular army. After gaining experience I went to a full infantry army using the points for more infantry. I'm not a fan of the LRR for the same reasons here... To use the flamestorm cannons means you must put the tank directly in harm's way... Sometimes that is okay but not always and probably not the majority of the time. If I want a landraider I'll take the Crusader so I can transport seven terminators (2x HQ & 5x GKT or Paladins).

 

G

[RedemptionNL]

For the Grey Knights codex, my order in choice of Land Raider is:

 

1. Land Raider Godhammer

2. Land Raider Redeemer

-- Long time of nothing

x. Land Raider Crusader

 

The problem is that the Grey Knights codex has little in the way of pure assault units. If you put something like Paladins or Purifiers in a Land Raider, you're wasting their shooting potential. Why is the Crusader at the bottom of the list? Well, first of all, a couple of bolters in an army filled to the brim with stormbolters and psycannons doesn't add anything new, while AP3 and cover ignoring weapons are at a premium. As I would rarely put any Grey Knight units in Terminator armour inside a Land Raider, the extra transport capacity is also wasted on me. The Redeemer is also 10 points cheaper, meaning you basically get upgrades like a multi-melta for 'free'.

 

Also, to fire a Crusader at full effect, you need to move 6" or less, and be within 12" of your target. That means you're in both assault and meltagun range the following turn, and any assaulters are hitting you on a 4+. So you're either moving 12" to deliver your payload ASAP, in which case you're rather shoot the Assault Cannon than a Hurricane Bolter sponson, or you want to stay out of melta/assault range, but then the Hurricane Bolters can't rapid fire.

 

So I mostly use the Godhammer pattern Land Raider in the back field with a counter-assault unit (Deathcult Assasins, mostly) inside, using its bulk to guard units like Dreadnoughts from long range anti-light armour units like Long Fangs or Lootas, and its lascannons to harass transports. If I want to switch things up for and go on the assault, I'd rather have the Redeemer filled with a handful of Deathcult Assassins and support character to annoy my opponent. :P

 

And of course, the Redeemer just looks that much cooler, especially with the FW GK flamestorm cannons. <3

[Brother Orifiel]

Thanks for the help, I think I will be going for the redeemer.

 

Redemption, I've never -ever- understood the philosophy of grey knights not being purely assaulty, and that assaulting with them is wasting their shooting potential. This is true, but it is probably truer to say that there are hardly any purely shooty units in a grey knight army as standard either. I just don't get the logic when people play shooty armies of GK despite almost all of their army having force weapons. I chose GK -because- of their versatile feel. Maybe I am just crazy, but it isn't yet time to jump on the psycannon spam bandwagon just yet I think =P and yes, the redeemer does look that much cooler!

[Archon_77]

Thanks for the help, I think I will be going for the redeemer.

 

Redemption, I've never -ever- understood the philosophy of grey knights not being purely assaulty, and that assaulting with them is wasting their shooting potential. This is true, but it is probably truer to say that there are hardly any purely shooty units in a grey knight army as standard either. I just don't get the logic when people play shooty armies of GK despite almost all of their army having force weapons. I chose GK -because- of their versatile feel. Maybe I am just crazy, but it isn't yet time to jump on the psycannon spam bandwagon just yet I think =P and yes, the redeemer does look that much cooler!

 

 

Good on you! I beat way too many opponents because they read the internet and believe blanket statments like "GK ARE SHOOTY! IF YOU ASSAULT YOU LOSE!". GK are good to great at just about everything they do, and I really struggle to find a "poor" unit of any kind the the codex. I6 power weapons are scary, and if properly used can get you far. Does that mean you have to pick out the enemy CC unit and fight them straight up? Of course not. Just because some armies/units do CC better does not mean that GK assualt does NOT have it's place.

 

An idea on how to burninate better:

Take a libby with The Summoning, deepstrike him in and summon that LRR into burninate/cc range. Bonus if you can do it behind some sort of cover so they can't potshot you.

[RedemptionNL]

Redemption, I've never -ever- understood the philosophy of grey knights not being purely assaulty, and that assaulting with them is wasting their shooting potential. This is true, but it is probably truer to say that there are hardly any purely shooty units in a grey knight army as standard either. I just don't get the logic when people play shooty armies of GK despite almost all of their army having force weapons. I chose GK -because- of their versatile feel. Maybe I am just crazy, but it isn't yet time to jump on the psycannon spam bandwagon just yet I think =P and yes, the redeemer does look that much cooler!

I never ment to imply that assaulting Grey Knights is a bad idea in general. As you said yourself, Grey Knights are a versatile force. They have both good shooting and good assault capabilities, but they're not the best in either. Jack of all trades, master of none, and all that. And especially Strike, Interceptor and Purgation squads are generally much better in shooting than then are in assault. Sure they have force weapons, but with their low number of attacks they'll lose combat to anything with a decent number of attacks and/or doesn't care about force weapons because they have t-shirt saves anyway.

 

Consider the situations where you would be better off driving your Paladin, Purifier, Terminator or Strike squad in a Land Raider to the enemy, maybe shooting one turn if it doesn't risk getting you of assault range, and engaging them in assault, than when you would have been footslogging to them, deep striking close to them or simply letting them come to you, while you soften them up with a few rounds of shooting before you engage them in melee. Only against armies such as a gunline list would that seem like a better idea to me.

 

So what are you doing with the Land Raider in the situations where driving up to your opponent is not a good idea? Using it as just a gunboat probably isn't the most effective use of your points. And if you take some dedicated assault unit like a squad of Deathcult Assassins in your list, wouldn't they be the better choice to put in the Land Raider in all those situations?

[the jeske]

Take a libby with The Summoning, deepstrike him in and summon that LRR into burninate/cc range. Bonus if you can do it behind some sort of cover so they can't potshot you.

and if summon gets hooded you get a libby near your opponent army . awesome tactic.

[Stormshadow]

I have three Land Raiders, one of each. And I play them all differently (but always give them Psybolts).

 

God Hammer: This is my Swiss army knife and Absolut favorite, I use it for almost everything and I am thinking about getting another.

 

Crusader: I play this bad boy a bit differently than many other players. For starters I give it a storm bolter instead of a Multi-melta. I drive it up about 20” from my table edge with an IC and a scoring unit and try to keep it in cover and close to an objective. From then on out it is a mobile pillbox that can grab objectives and slingshot units into assault. But generally I like to keep it stationary, anything with in 12.1”-24” suffers allot of small arms fire. 4 S7 twin linked, 6 S5 twin linked and 2 S5 shots are a lot of fire power to withstand, if the enemy is within 12” it is another 6 S5 twin linked shots. To anything with an AP greater or less than 4, that is the equivalent of another 2 heavy bolters. This is a great tool against high toughness and multi wound models like MC’s, and against all those things that fear the heavy blters of course.

 

Redeemer: This is the go to Land Raider in my speed army’s. It is perfect for a 5 man unit and IC in terminator armor, and it goes very well together with my twin Stormraven lists. I often take a Multi-melta with it, and it drives 12” almost every turn of every game I play it, shouting the Melta or “psycannon” until I am close enough to use one of the flamestorms. Once it is in range and has unloaded its cargo, I use it as a cc monster that does its fighting in the movement and shooting faze. I tank-shock in the movement faze to bunch the enemy together, and then I hit them with the Flamestorm cannon, in the assault faze the enemy cannot fight back because he is not locked in combat with the vehicle, and during his turn he hits on sixes.

 

Which Land raider is the best? I have no idea… They are different tools I use for different tasks, and I never listen when someone is trying to convince me that one or the other is worthless.

[Brother Orifiel]

Take a libby with The Summoning, deepstrike him in and summon that LRR into burninate/cc range. Bonus if you can do it behind some sort of cover so they can't potshot you.

and if summon gets hooded you get a libby near your opponent army . awesome tactic.

 

If ifs and buts were but cherries and nuts, then every day could be christmas.

The concept does feel situational, but those are the plays I like best. Mono-dimensional sweeping evaluation makes me a saaaaad panda. Sounds like it may have its uses! I never considered using a libby to port a raider ontop of himself.

 

@Redemption: I certainly agree putting a dedicated assault unit in the raider would be a far better option if I were to use one, alas in lieu of that pallies will have to do. Of course if they were melee (Or had to advance) orientated themselves it would make sense to let them come to me and whittle them down before engaging, and I also agree the firepower on GKs is really nice. Naturally, in the situations were their shooting is more effective, I wouldn't just run into melee, but if such a situation presented itself where I could charge an unassuming marine unit after they thought "Ah this guy is shooty" then I would jump on them and strike them down with all the force of a thousand viking warriors.

 

If driving up to my opponent were simply not a good idea, and note that I would never simply charge my raider straight into their gun line ASAP, then I'd really try to use it as a deterrant for moving closer to objective based locations. Positiong behind cover in an area which they would need to pass to effectively attack a position held by troops would be nice, and the pallies in the raider are almost always going to be used as a counter assault unit provided I'm fighting vs balanced armies, only doing the strafing promethium spewing annihilation of all that which is unholy once the cargo has entered melee of its own accord. The drive into their faces would only of course be used vs the really shooty armies, and even then not exactly driving into the unit with AT that I couldn't tie up with my melee unit. There are inevitably situations where it would be better to get out and shoot, and that's the sort of play I love! Thanks for the input you've given me some good thinking points for the playstyle.

 

Thanks for the info @ Storm

[RedemptionNL]

Well, always remember that if something works for you, disregard any comment other persons have on your playstyle. The main rule is that you have fun. ;)

 

Also, one of the more mature discussions I've had with a 12 year old in a long time, kudos. :) Heck, plenty of people on forums twice that age that can't form a coherent sentence if their life depended on it. ;) So, welcome to B&C and enjoy your stay!

[Brother Orifiel]

Well, always remember that if something works for you, disregard any comment other persons have on your playstyle. The main rule is that you have fun. ;)

 

Also, one of the more mature discussions I've had with a 12 year old in a long time, kudos. :) Heck, plenty of people on forums twice that age that can't form a coherent sentence if their life depended on it. ;) So, welcome to B&C and enjoy your stay!

 

Oh I'm not 12, I was making fun of a common meme. But yes, thanks fsor the mature discussion of the topic, it really gave me some good insights and I can't wait to resume playing. =P See you around!

[RedemptionNL]

Damnit! And you had given me a sparkle of hope that there is some kind of future for humanity too! ;)

[Lord Melvin]

Wait...people have fun while playing this game? UNHEARD OF!!!

 

I'd say all ahead full on the LRR idea. I have a lasraider, and I'm very much enamored of it. I use it very differently than I would an LRR, but any time "Land Raider" comes up an an army list, "Fire Magnet" comes right after it. People see AV 14 and pee their pants, so even if your LRR takes every melta and lascannon shot this side of the segmentum, that's another AP1 or AP 2 shot NOT hitting your GKs. And forever shot not hitting your core troops, that's another turn of advancing that they get.

[Archon_77]

Take a libby with The Summoning, deepstrike him in and summon that LRR into burninate/cc range. Bonus if you can do it behind some sort of cover so they can't potshot you.

and if summon gets hooded you get a libby near your opponent army . awesome tactic.

 

 

Positive as always Jeske. Do you ever contribute anything at all to this game/forum but venom? I'd really hate to play against you with this attitude, guys like you ruin games : /

 

And no, I'm not going to ever ever suggest anyone do this against any army that has a Psychic hood, Runes of warding, etc. But then again, it DOES only have a 24" Range, so the ".awesome tactic." as you put it does not mean it has to be a deepstrike/alphastrike situation. Why not hide the libby behind LOS blocking and then plan to roll that raider up and use it next turn? Or did you just assume that everyone is tactically inept including the OP?

[Archon_77]

 

If ifs and buts were but cherries and nuts, then every day could be christmas.

The concept does feel situational, but those are the plays I like best. Mono-dimensional sweeping evaluation makes me a saaaaad panda. Sounds like it may have its uses! I never considered using a libby to port a raider ontop of himself.

 

 

 

Do keep in mind however this can be costly if you dont have a lot of points to spare, I dont have my codex handy, but I believe its 15 pts for the power on the libby plus 50 pts for the wargear on the tank to make it "summonable". But the WOW factor is enough to have fun with it I think :)

[Stormshadow]

It’s a lot cheaper than that 

5pts for summoning and 5pts for Warp Stabilization Fields.

The problem I have with this tactic isn’t the point cost or the opponents psychic hood, It is the fact that you can’t guide the land raider with Teleport Homers. The Librarian and whatever unit he is within is impassible terrain and the Land raider have to be placed within 6” of hem, that’s risky business if you ask me.

You can guide Terminator armor though… I wonder if you could guide an entire Warband if it was accompanied by an IC in terminator armour… If you placed a Land Raider with its side along the edge of your deployment zone pivoted to gain an extra inch or two, moved 12”, disembarked a Librarian and a paladin squad 2” away, ad the distains of the librarians base, and summon a warband with IC in terminator armor that contains three Meltas 6” away… could that get them into melta range turn one? hmmmm

[RedemptionNL]

You can't use the teleport homer on models in terminator armour that you Deep Strike with The Summoning either, as it is not a teleport (something that could be changed in the next edition, if the leaked faq is true).

 

The only thing that currently prevents scatter for summoned units is a Mystic henchmen, which would have to be near the Librarian.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've been experimenting with 5 man Paladin squads with Redeemers (psyflame and psybolt ammo is fun). Put in an IC and you have a nice 6 man termie squad.