Niiai Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Does the scout's behind enemy lines still work if I combine it with a independent character with saga of the hunter? Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes. Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2962918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would say the two dont combine. the FAQ only says says: Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a WolfScouts pack outflank? (p27) A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. Saga of the Hunter only gives you Stealth and the ability to Outflank. Nowhere in its description does it grant Behind Enemy Lines. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2962944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schertenleib Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This has been argued to death since the codex came out. No one can agree on it. Ask your opponent if he is okay with it and ask the folks running your game/tournament. As for me and mine.... Yes you can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2962965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would say the two dont combine. the FAQ only says says: Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a WolfScouts pack outflank? (p27) A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. Saga of the Hunter only gives you Stealth and the ability to Outflank. Nowhere in its description does it grant Behind Enemy Lines. WLK Well, I mean... Wolf Scouts don't even have the Outflank ability. They just have BEL. I would say yes they can, but it's been argued to death both ways. I wish GW would just FAQ it already instead of saying that it can do something the Scouts can't even do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2962973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would say the two dont combine. the FAQ only says says: Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a WolfScouts pack outflank? (p27) A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. Saga of the Hunter only gives you Stealth and the ability to Outflank. Nowhere in its description does it grant Behind Enemy Lines. WLK Well, I mean... Wolf Scouts don't even have the Outflank ability. They just have BEL. I would say yes they can, but it's been argued to death both ways. I wish GW would just FAQ it already instead of saying that it can do something the Scouts can't even do. your right, it doesnt specially say that Scouts have Outflank...unless you read the rules for Infiltrate (page 75 of rulebook) where it says it gives a special Outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94) Page 94 says that any unit with the Scout or Infiltrate rule can outflank the enemy, and then goes onto to describe how it works. and in all these glorious rules, no mention of Behind Enemy Lines. Behind Enemy Lines does say that when a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its aability to outflank, and then goes on to modify the rules of Outflanking for the unit. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2962978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yep. GW really flubbed by not simply stating yes or no about BEL in the FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yep. GW really flubbed by not simply stating yes or no about BEL in the FAQ. Yes, yes they did. I dislike to do so, but some of GWs rules are so poorly written, i try to always follow them to the letter. if it says i can do something, then game on. if it doesnt that dammit. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. Really depends on who you're playing. Me personally, I would allow it because it fits with how the army works and makes logical sense given the only thing that outflanks in the army does it in a special manner. Someone who's hard core to RAW would likely dispute it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This answer is there if you follow a logical sequence. Can characters with Saga of the Hunter join a WS pack? Yes. Can this unit outflank based on the Scout/outflank given by the Saga? Yes. How do units with this ability in C:SW outflank? They have BEL, which is a variation of outflank. It is not completely different, the table edge is determined by dice roll, but an additional table edge is added to the possible result. So can the unit with character outflank as per the BEL rules? Yes. Yes, the FAQ is less clear as it says outflank and not BEL, but Space Wolves do so by using the variant outflanking rules: BEL Anyone who tries to stop you really needs to get out more :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes. Cheers. As has been pointed out, this has been argued to geath. And as Durfast pointed out, the logic is simple. Except he left out the last step of the logical progression : When an IC is attached to a squad, he is part of the squad for all purposes except fighting in close combat. The BEL rule affects the Wolf Scout unit, and does not make mention of the unit loosing it if a member does not have the special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niiai Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks, I'll ask the tournament organiser. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes. Cheers. As has been pointed out, this has been argued to geath. And as Durfast pointed out, the logic is simple. Except he left out the last step of the logical progression : When an IC is attached to a squad, he is part of the squad for all purposes except fighting in close combat. The BEL rule affects the Wolf Scout unit, and does not make mention of the unit loosing it if a member does not have the special rule. Exactly I would say yes. Also bel is not a universal special rule with * so not every member must have it. certainly worth asking though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This answer is there if you follow a logical sequence.Agree Can characters with Saga of the Hunter join a WS pack? Yes. Agree Can this unit outflank based on the Scout/outflank given by the Saga? Yes. Agree How do units with this ability in C:SW outflank? They have BEL, which is a variation of outflank. It is not completely different, the table edge is determined by dice roll, but an additional table edge is added to the possible result. Disagree. Key word here, "variation" meaning they dont Outflank as normal, but as per special rules only they have. So can the unit with character outflank as per the BEL rules? Yes. Nope Yes, the FAQ is less clear as it says outflank and not BEL, but Space Wolves do so by using the variant outflanking rules: BEL Again, key word "variant". Anyone who tries to stop you really needs to get out more ;) Or just play by the rules in the actual rulebook, despite what randomn net guy's "logic" claims. Thanks, I'll ask the tournament organiser. probably the best way to go here... WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Anyone who tries to stop you really needs to get out more :POr just play by the rules in the actual rulebook, despite what randomn net guy's "logic" claims. The actual rules in the actual Rulebook and Codex allow a unit of Wolf Scouts with an attached IC to BEL Outflank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Anyone who tries to stop you really needs to get out more :POr just play by the rules in the actual rulebook, despite what randomn net guy's "logic" claims. The actual rules in the actual Rulebook and Codex allow a unit of Wolf Scouts with an attached IC to BEL Outflank. well, i disagree (as is obvious at this point, because an attached IC with Outflank is not a wolf scout, so doesnt get their variation outflank rule but the standard Outflank rule on page 94), and have already said my bit. soo good luck all and happy gaming! peace out thread! WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Anyone who tries to stop you really needs to get out more :POr just play by the rules in the actual rulebook, despite what randomn net guy's "logic" claims. The actual rules in the actual Rulebook and Codex allow a unit of Wolf Scouts with an attached IC to BEL Outflank. well, i disagree (as is obvious at this point, because an attached IC with Outflank is not a wolf scout, so doesnt get their variation outflank rule but the standard Outflank rule on page 94), and have already said my bit. soo good luck all and happy gaming! peace out thread! WLK He doesn't have to be a Wolf Scout, just part of a Wolf Scout unit. During deployment players may declare that Units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy. This means they are making a wide sweeping move to come at the foe from an unexpected direction. When an outflanking unit arrives from reserve the controlling player rolls a dice: on a 1-2 the unit will come in from the short table edge on the player's left; on a 3-4 they will come from the right, on a 5-6 the player can choose left or right. Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to see where it may be deployed, On the roll of a 1 the Wolf Scout unit enters play from the short table edge to the owning player's left, on a 2 they enter play from the short table edge to the owning player's right, and on a 3-6 they enter play from any table edge the Space Wolves player wishes. This may even be his opponent's table edge. Now, normally, the Wolf Scout unit would lose the Scout USR because it has been joined by an IC without Scout, but the FAQ allows the Scouts to Infiltrate anyway Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? (p27)A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. So the combined Wolf Scout unit can Outflank, thanks to Scout and SotH, and it can BEL because the special rule affects the unit, doesn't preclude its use (like C:SM Vanguard Vets Special rule "Heroic Intervention" does) and isn't a USR marked with a (*). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dammit. I thought i was done. Does the Independent Character have Behind Enemy Lines? Or just the Outflank rule? Because Behind Enemy Lines is a variantion of Outflank, but not the same thing. As you say in your example with Vanguard vets (which is worded well and leaves no doubt), its a variation of the Deep Strike rule granted by Jump Packs, but isnt the standard rule. Because as i am seeing it, it saya Wolf Scout unit may use its ability to outflank to yadda yadda yadda. Not a Wolf Scout unit and attached Characters with Saga of the Hunter. The FAQ says the Wolf Scouts may Outflank with a Character with Saga of the Hunter, but doesnt say they can use the Behind Enemy Lines rule. They may still outflank because it is granted by the Wolf Scouts also having Infiltrate. Since it doesnt say they can, in order to be fair to my opponents, I play it as they cannot join them. we disagree, thats fine. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Does the Independent Character have Behind Enemy Lines? Does Behind Enemy Lines say it can't be used if the Wolf Scout unit is joined by an Independant Character (a la : Heroic Intervention)? Does an attached IC stop being a part of the unit for anything other than Close Combat resolution? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Does the Independent Character have Behind Enemy Lines? Does Behind Enemy Lines say it can't be used if the Wolf Scout unit is joined by an Independant Character (a la : Heroic Intervention)? Does an attached IC stop being a part of the unit for anything other than Close Combat resolution? So this is going to boil down to you saying since it isnt specifically said they cant, they can. i disagree, as 40k rules are poorly worded. i believe that unless it says they can, then they cant. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Does the Independent Character have Behind Enemy Lines? Does Behind Enemy Lines say it can't be used if the Wolf Scout unit is joined by an Independant Character (a la : Heroic Intervention)? Does an attached IC stop being a part of the unit for anything other than Close Combat resolution? So this is going to boil down to you saying since it isnt specifically said they cant, they can. i disagree, as 40k rules are poorly worded. i believe that unless it says they can, then they cant. WLK Well, you're welcome to House Rule it however you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dammit. I thought i was done. Does the Independent Character have Behind Enemy Lines? Or just the Outflank rule? Because Behind Enemy Lines is a variantion of Outflank, but not the same thing. As you say in your example with Vanguard vets (which is worded well and leaves no doubt), its a variation of the Deep Strike rule granted by Jump Packs, but isnt the standard rule. Because as i am seeing it, it saya Wolf Scout unit may use its ability to outflank to yadda yadda yadda. Not a Wolf Scout unit and attached Characters with Saga of the Hunter. The FAQ says the Wolf Scouts may Outflank with a Character with Saga of the Hunter, but doesnt say they can use the Behind Enemy Lines rule. They may still outflank because it is granted by the Wolf Scouts also having Infiltrate. Since it doesnt say they can, in order to be fair to my opponents, I play it as they cannot join them. we disagree, thats fine. WLK Except, Wolf Scouts Outflank by using Behind Enemy Lines. Can Wolf Scouts Outflank normally? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 They can outflank normally, but since the HQ does not have Behind Enemy Lines, it cannot outflank. The only reason wolf guard are except is because they become part of the unit they join. Independant characters are part of a squad in terms of shooting and movement, but are always treated as a individral unit in all other purposes, including close combat where they can be singled out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 They can outflank normally, but since the HQ does not have Behind Enemy Lines, it cannot outflank. The only reason wolf guard are except is because they become part of the unit they join. Independant characters are part of a squad in terms of shooting, but they are always cosnidered a individal unit Seems pretty simple to me. Incorrect, see the FAQ. The attached IC can outflank with the Wolf Scout unit. And they are not considered seperate from the unit the have joined except for Close Combat Resolution - else how could they give their Leadership value to the unit during the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases for example? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 They can outflank normally, but since the HQ does not have Behind Enemy Lines, it cannot outflank. The only reason wolf guard are except is because they become part of the unit they join. Independant characters are part of a squad in terms of shooting, but they are always cosnidered a individal unit Seems pretty simple to me. Incorrect, see the FAQ. The attached IC can outflank with the Wolf Scout unit. And they are not considered seperate from the unit the have joined except for Close Combat Resolution - else how could they give their Leadership value to the unit during the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases for example? Yes, they can out flank, but they can't go behind enemry lines. They don't have the rule for it, nor do they have any way of gaining it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/#findComment-2963803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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