dswanick Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 They can outflank normally, but since the HQ does not have Behind Enemy Lines, it cannot outflank. The only reason wolf guard are except is because they become part of the unit they join. Independant characters are part of a squad in terms of shooting, but they are always cosnidered a individal unit Seems pretty simple to me. Incorrect, see the FAQ. The attached IC can outflank with the Wolf Scout unit. And they are not considered seperate from the unit the have joined except for Close Combat Resolution - else how could they give their Leadership value to the unit during the Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases for example? Yes, they can out flank, but they can't go behind enemry lines. They don't have the rule for it, nor do they have any way of gaining it. Nor does the IC need it, as part of the unit the unit has an altered Outflank roll. CHARACTERS AS LEADERSRemember that a unit's Leadership tests are taken using the Leadership of the model with the highest Ld value in the unit (see page 8 ). MOVING INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together. INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & SHOOTING In the heat of battle it is often hard to distinguish individuals, and even harder to pick them out as specific targets. Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets. INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & ASSAULTS If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onwards). All this shows that an attached IC is a member of the unit he is attached to while attached. The Wolf Scout unit can BEL when they Outflank - ergo attaching an IC doesn't change this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 @dswanick: thank you for being so gracious... @ghent: i would have to say they can because they are granted normal Outflank by having the Infiltrate rule. This is how i see it being played (or house ruled as it has been called) Deploy army, no wolf scouts Decided if you are going to Infiltrate them. If not, decide to either Outflank them (and add IC with Saga of the Hunter) or use the Behind Enemy Lines rule. Play game. This limits the Wolf Scouts, yes. But I would rather limit a single unit in my army then employ rules against my opponent that arent clearly expressed. Again, this is a poorly written rule with a weak FAQ. Play it in any manner in which you see fit. How i run my games with my opponents only effects 5 people on B&C. How you choose to run your games only effects your buddies. In a tournament, ask the organizer what answer they prefer. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 @ghent: i would have to say they can because they are granted normal Outflank by having the Infiltrate rule. This is how i see it being played (or house ruled as it has been called)Deploy army, no wolf scouts Decided if you are going to Infiltrate them. If not, decide to either Outflank them (and add IC with Saga of the Hunter) or use the Behind Enemy Lines rule. Play game. This limits the Wolf Scouts, yes. But I would rather limit a single unit in my army then employ rules against my opponent that arent clearly expressed. Again, this is a poorly written rule with a weak FAQ. Play it in any manner in which you see fit. How i run my games with my opponents only effects 5 people on B&C. How you choose to run your games only effects your buddies. In a tournament, ask the organizer what answer they prefer. WLK From the C:SW: "If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of it's ability to outflank, yadda yadda BEL rules". It's not Outflank OR use BEL rules. It's when you Outflank, use BEL rules. So, when the UNIT Outflanks, you use the BEL rules. The IC would be part of said unit, and would use BEL when the unit Outflanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I see what you are saying, but disagree. Its a stupid situation because GW doesnt word it very well at all, and didnt properly address it in the FAQ. If you want to BEL an IC, go for it. You dont need my approval. can somebody link the previous threads on this? I am pretty sure somebody there says what i am trying to say alot better than i. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Quick question and a genuine one, I'm not trying to be snide. I want this to work for my fave style of play, but from an empirical interpretation of the rules I'm not sure it can. My question is this... How do the Wolf Scouts retain their ability to outflank when joined by an Independent Character with Saga of the Hunter ? The Wolf scouts have both Scouts and Infiltrate, universal special rules marked with an asterisk. These special rules grant the outflank move. BUT as far as I can see the special rules marked with an asterisk are lost by the wolf scouts if the IC joining the unit doesn't have the these rules (not abilities - rules MRB p74) Saga of the Hunter grants the Stealth special rule and the ability to outflank. It grants neither Infiltrate, nor Scouts. Thus the Wolf Scout unit loses both these rules and the associated ability to outflank and thus any chance of BEL. I've seen folks explain this away by saying it doesn't take effect prior to deployment, but when you look at the RAW, that doesn't seem to make sense. However i happily accept that the FAQ suggests that ICs with Saga of the Hunter are intended to be able to deploy BEL if accompanying a unit of Wolf Scouts. Again, I'm not calling anyone out on this, just asking for rational explanations :) I want my frostblade equipped Initiative 5 Character who hits on 3+ with 4 attacks turning up in someones defenceless fire support units every single time I go to war :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 lets just say Saga of the Hunter has been badly worded... I agree however, that a model with saga of the hunter joining a pack of scouts should be able to use BEL. The way we play it, they are. it's how we think the RAI rules are. who cares about RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It explicitly says in the FAQ they can join an outflanking unit of scouts, if they also have the outflank special rule via Saga of the Hunter. So they would not lose the ability to outflank or BEL by being joined by an IC with SoH. The IC with SoH would then be part of a unit of Wolf Scouts, who again when they use outflank use BEL rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i found this while skimming the Wolf FAQ: Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leaderassigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its Scouts special rule, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines? (p86) A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts special rule does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities. Here it is clearly makes a difference between outflanking and using Behind Enemy Lines, and how they relate to the Wolf Scouts being joined by other models. here is the part of the FAQ that allows a Saga of the Hunter IC to outflank (and in my opinion, not BEL as it is a modified Outflank) with Wolf Scouts: Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a WolfScouts pack outflank? (p27) A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. so again, poorly worded rules mean make sure you and your group/tourney runner is informed. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. And I think this is the issue right here. They are not using OBEL to outflank, they are outflanking- wich triggers OBEL. Its like Vangaurd Veterans- they dont "heroic intervention" they Deepstrike, and then use Heroic Intervention. Theres alot of things like this in the game where its easier to describe the special rules being used than the full sequence. So... yes, the Wolf Priest, for example, Outflanks with the unit of scouts. When the scouts come in- via outflank- they then use OBEL to determine where they outflank to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I knew all I had to do was wait, and you'd give the answer I wanted to give, only correctly. thank you Grey Mage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. And I think this is the issue right here. They are not using OBEL to outflank, they are outflanking- wich triggers OBEL. Its like Vangaurd Veterans- they dont "heroic intervention" they Deepstrike, and then use Heroic Intervention. Theres alot of things like this in the game where its easier to describe the special rules being used than the full sequence. So... yes, the Wolf Priest, for example, Outflanks with the unit of scouts. When the scouts come in- via outflank- they then use OBEL to determine where they outflank to. Grey Mage has summarized my opinion on this. I see no reason to withhold BEL from scouts with a Saga of the Hunter IC attached. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. And I think this is the issue right here. They are not using OBEL to outflank, they are outflanking- wich triggers OBEL. Its like Vangaurd Veterans- they dont "heroic intervention" they Deepstrike, and then use Heroic Intervention. Theres alot of things like this in the game where its easier to describe the special rules being used than the full sequence. So... yes, the Wolf Priest, for example, Outflanks with the unit of scouts. When the scouts come in- via outflank- they then use OBEL to determine where they outflank to. Worded better and the point I was trying to get to. Yes, this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2963931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. And I think this is the issue right here. They are not using OBEL to outflank, they are outflanking- wich triggers OBEL. Its like Vangaurd Veterans- they dont "heroic intervention" they Deepstrike, and then use Heroic Intervention. Theres alot of things like this in the game where its easier to describe the special rules being used than the full sequence. So... yes, the Wolf Priest, for example, Outflanks with the unit of scouts. When the scouts come in- via outflank- they then use OBEL to determine where they outflank to. This is exactly why I think they CAN'T outflank with an IC SoH attached. I can't see how Wolf Scouts can outflank when an IC SoH is attached as, as soon as the IC joins the unit, the scouts lose the universal special rules (infiltrate and scouts) that would otherwise allow then to outflank. If you read the RaW, when an the IC SoH joins the unit he is actually the only one left who CAN outflank. No outflank means no BEL. It's not the rules as intended, but as far as I can see, it is the rules as written. If it's not this, can someone reference (page numbers in the rules, etc) how Wolf Scouts keep their outflank ability when joined by an IC who does not posess the rules (marked with an asterisk, so are lost) that allow the Scouts themselves to outflank IF - the Scouts could keep their outflank ability (I don't see how they do) then I agree that an IC SoH would happily be able to BEL along with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2964139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Wich is why the FAQ is so important- because otherwise you are correct, they should lose the rule. However, we know it IS possible for them to outflank with the wolf priest etc, so they must not lose the outflank rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2964199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would tend to think that they could, given Space Wolves outflank completely differently than other Scouts, but how it's written it's so unclear since they use BEL instead of outflank. And I think this is the issue right here. They are not using OBEL to outflank, they are outflanking- wich triggers OBEL. Its like Vangaurd Veterans- they dont "heroic intervention" they Deepstrike, and then use Heroic Intervention. Theres alot of things like this in the game where its easier to describe the special rules being used than the full sequence. So... yes, the Wolf Priest, for example, Outflanks with the unit of scouts. When the scouts come in- via outflank- they then use OBEL to determine where they outflank to. This is exactly why I think they CAN'T outflank with an IC SoH attached. I can't see how Wolf Scouts can outflank when an IC SoH is attached as, as soon as the IC joins the unit, the scouts lose the universal special rules (infiltrate and scouts) that would otherwise allow then to outflank. If you read the RaW, when an the IC SoH joins the unit he is actually the only one left who CAN outflank. No outflank means no BEL. This was the exact correct interpretation based on the originally published codex and rulebook; however, the FAQ changed this entirely, and expressly allows an IC with Saga of the Hunter to join a Wolf Scout unit and still outflank together. Understanding that outflanking is, in fact, now allowed for the combined unit (due to the publication of the FAQ), we should also see that the unit will use the modified table for deployment, which is referred to in the Behind Enemy Lines portion of the Wolf Scout rules. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2964687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 BEL isnt a rule unto its own. Just like heroic intervention. Just like dropping from a storm raven. It is an outflank. The OLD BEL from the 3rd ed book, that was a RULE UNTO ITS OWN. Just like the arguement of "does a thunderwolf give a TRUE t5..." when the book first came out... Just like do you get the benefit of two frostblades... this is actually an EASY ANSWER. BEL states that WHEN they make use of OUTFLANK.... they dont have a specific OUTFLANK rule, they have the ability to do it. Does the IC have the ability to outflank, and is he part of the unit? YES by the arguement of them NOT beign able to BEL with an IC you are taking it away from a wolf guard, who is NOT a scout. who DOES NOT have the ability to outflank. even though the scouts GIVE him the ability to outflank, which by the same arguement would NOT give him BEL.... make sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2964724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coverfire Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 by the arguement of them NOT beign able to BEL with an IC you are taking it away from a wolf guard, who is NOT a scout. who DOES NOT have the ability to outflank. even though the scouts GIVE him the ability to outflank, which by the same arguement would NOT give him BEL.... This is the most convincing arguement I have seen so far in support of an IC with Saga of the Hunter being able to go BEL. I am honestly still on the fence (probably leaning against being able too) but am by no means set in that mindset. I would say that GW may decide to answer this question with a 6th Ed FAQ and may depend on any changes to the game mechanics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2965294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 but remember that the faq specificly state that a WG can BEL while it doesn't do the same for an IC. Also it is clear that WG are not unit part of the unit but become the unit. a WG joined to a troop choice can still hold a obj even if he is the only remaining guy from the unit, the same cannot be said for an IC. I would like it if you could attach an IC to scouts in this way but being unable isn't hurting us much. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Also it is clear that WG are not unit part of the unit but become the unit. Are you just trying to confound us into submission? V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 just ask youre opponent if hes fine with it. Iam in the no he cant camp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. A. K. Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 you guessed it Valerian :). I said it poorly but what I meant was how an IC is counted as part of the unit but not in the same way as a WG which joins and can't leave. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghent Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 but remember that the faq specificly state that a WG can BEL while it doesn't do the same for an IC. Also it is clear that WG are not unit part of the unit but become the unit. a WG joined to a troop choice can still hold a obj even if he is the only remaining guy from the unit, the same cannot be said for an IC. I would like it if you could attach an IC to scouts in this way but being unable isn't hurting us much. G Doesn't say they can't. It says they can outflank with them, however. And when scouts outflank, BEL triggers. So if they can outflank, they can BEL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 but remember that the faq specificly state that a WG can BEL while it doesn't do the same for an IC. Also it is clear that WG are not unit part of the unit but become the unit. a WG joined to a troop choice can still hold a obj even if he is the only remaining guy from the unit, the same cannot be said for an IC. I would like it if you could attach an IC to scouts in this way but being unable isn't hurting us much. you guessed it Valerian :lol:. I said it poorly but what I meant was how an IC is counted as part of the unit but not in the same way as a WG which joins and can't leave. But for the Wolf Guard Pack Leader, he doesn't have Scouts, Infiltrate, Outflank, or the IC rule - so the FAQ is needed to clarify that even without any of the rules he's still a part of the unit, gets the benefit of the unit's special rules, and doesn't prevent the unit from performing an Outflank maneuver. The Battle Leader on the other hand had the problem that without Scouts, he had InfiltrateOutflank via the SotH but the WGSs would lose InfiltrateOutflank because they lose Scouts/Infiltrate being joined by an IC without Scouts/Infiltrate. So both FAQ questions address a specific concern which does not negate the other or the combined question which has never been FAQd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The Battle Leader on the other hand had the problem that without Scouts, he had Infiltrate via the SotH but the WGSs would lose Infiltrate because they lose Scouts being joined by an IC without Scouts.So both FAQ questions address a specific concern which does not negate the other or the combined question which has never been FAQd. SotH doesn't grant Infiltrate, it grants outflank. And therein lies the problem that needs to be reolved by the FAQ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The Battle Leader on the other hand had the problem that without Scouts, he had Infiltrate via the SotH but the WGSs would lose Infiltrate because they lose Scouts being joined by an IC without Scouts.So both FAQ questions address a specific concern which does not negate the other or the combined question which has never been FAQd. SotH doesn't grant Infiltrate, it grants outflank. And therein lies the problem that needs to be reolved by the FAQ... Sorry, you are correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245010-behind-enemy-lines-and-sage-of-the-hunter/page/2/#findComment-2967421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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