Gentlemanloser Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 BO, you're confusing things. The RAW for RP was the RAW. Set in stone, and broken. But it was the RAW. And the OR discussion sohuld have ended with the Orb (and Phyl) not working. That's not subjective. That's not interpretation. It was plainly how that badly written rule was written. Unbiased and objective. However a TO wanted to play it, that would be thier opinion of the rule. And thier personal houserule. Well: Touche. ;) OR is the RAI forum. ;) In that case, I'd like to ask for a RAW forum. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2970792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Try YMDC. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2970797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 While I like the restriction about "The Most Important Rule" (as I agree with it being worthless mentioning), YMDC is a mixture of RAW and RAI (or HYWPI) discussions. Personally, I still feel it would be better to have two distinct forums. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2970806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 And the OR discussion sohuld have ended with the Orb (and Phyl) not working. And that would have been a disservice to everyone who looks to our +OR+ for a workable solution in their games :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2970873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Exactly. If the forum was only allowed to use RAW that would be a true folly. Justice is blind. G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have to disagree with the latest thrust of this thread. The purpose of this forum is not to find a workable solution for a game. Dice for it is a workable solution for a game in progress. The purpose of this forum should be to elucidate what the rules actually say. The text of the rules does not change (bar errata). +OR+ is not meant to tell people how it must be played. How people decide to play afterwards is their own business, and there's no reason to think two groups are going to decide to play the same way. Rather, it is meant to inform people as to what the rules actually say, and let them use this as a basis for decisions. If the rules fail to function or don't indicate a clear procedure, it is our job to state that. It is the gaming group's job to come to a decision about a remedy for the issue, not ours. It may be ok to give *potential* solutions when the rules fail, but it would be ridiculous to state any of those are *the* solution. If the game rules do function, we should be able to state *how* they function, concisely and completely. It is the gaming group's decision whether or not those procedures will actually be followed. It is not our job to change, alter, or complete the rules. Those are jobs for individual gaming groups. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Incorrect. The purpose of this forum is to discuss rules issues. Sometimes RAW isn't enough, so RAI becomes valid for those groups that are willing to use an RAI solution. That's not everybody, obviously, so any discussion of RAI herein wouldn't even attempt to be authoritative in nature. It would merely be informative in order to help players and groups in resolving those issues that they can't resolve through RAW. So for those of you that don't like RAI, the simple solution is for you to ignore any RAI discussion herein. Note that I said "ignore." That doesn't mean "interfere" or "object." You can argue the RAW to your heart's content, and if a discussion then moves to RAI, just stay out of it unless you have something constructive to add. Everybody's a winner that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Incorrect. The purpose of this forum is to discuss rules issues. The purpose of this forum is to discuss the "Official Rules", as evidenced by the name of the board. RAI is in no way official, because once GW says something (FAQ, errata) its no longer RAI. As it is not official, RAI has virtually no place here. RAI discussion should move to the homebrew forum, conveniently also part of Tactica Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Wow squirrel, really? You're trying to tell the administrator what the forum 'really' is?? You might want to re think that, at least make it a suggestion at first, or a wish list. You've not even been here 2 months, Brotther Tyler is correct in what this forum is. It's never been what you are pushing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I may have been a little snarky, but RAI is homebrew. I don't see why it should be part of a discussion about the rules. Because RAI is not _rules_ in any global sense. You may get people to agree to treat them as rules (ie, houserules), but you can theoretically get people to agree to almost anything including custom codices and fielding primarchs. Why should one houserule be treated differently than another? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnowThyEnemy Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 they shouldn't, but in the cases where there are incomplete, confusing or contradicting rules for a certain scenario, coming to a general consensus via common sense is usualy quite easy. im all for a good RAW discussion, but at the end of the day its still a hobby game meant to be played for fun. if two people can't even agree on that, it's a shame. the issue with this: Dice for it is a workable solution for a game in progress. is that not everybody wants to dice for a certain issue that comes up multiple times. its easier for me to go into a game knowing that there is a potential solution, RAI or not, to a problem that may arise then to let the dice tell me common sense is right/wrong Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm actually siding with Squirrel here. ;) (Edit: Well, not on tellign an admin what to do! :lol:) RAI is pointless to debate. Pointless. Subjective versus subjective. It's a round robin yawn fest. We already have a forum for home grown rules, any RAI solution to a RAW log-a-head could go there (if there isn't a more suitable forum). At the least, a seperate RAI thread here. If the forum is to cater for RAI and RAW discussions, shouldn't we at least tag our threads with [RAI] or [RAW] or the like? In that case, every RAI thread canjust be ignored becuase my RAI > your RAI. Edit: As I said earlier, giving out RAI answers is useful and interesting. And it's something we should be doing. But not as part of any sort of rules discussion/debate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 At the least, a seperate RAI thread here. That's my preferred route too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Is that the best solution? Sometimes RAW doesn't work or yield the right results. For example some vets shoot their plasmaguns from inside a chimera then suffer enough to force a morale check. RAW cannot address this situation adequately. Sometimes both RAI and RAW both need to be explored to find the best solution. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 At the least, a seperate RAI thread here. That's my preferred route too. I would agree with this approach, so long as there is a RAW forum and an RAI forum - and any discussions are moved to the appropriate forum by a mod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 We already have a forum for home grown rules, any RAI solution to a RAW log-a-head could go there (if there isn't a more suitable forum). There's a difference between "home grown rules" and interpreted meanings of RAW. The Homegrown Rules forum is for player-created rules, units, codices, etc. The +OR+ is for the interpretation of official rules, and any RAI discussion (created through the failings of RAW!) completely fits that description. If all that is allowed here is RAW, and RAW does not work, what do people do with that? Stop playing the in-progress game because the rules they come up against are broken and they cannot proceed past that point? :) No, better to help people out with one or more interpretations of official rules (you know, the stated purpose of this forum? ;) ) to help them through their game. I will say, the RAW/RAI forum and/or thread separation is a decent idea to keep things clear for everyone :) but it is also clunky and cumbersome. It would be much easier if we simply started with RAW and, when it was clear that a consensus believed RAW to be broken, the discussion shifts to the logical and fair way to play the broken RAW. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Is that the best solution? Sometimes RAW doesn't work or yield the right results. For example some vets shoot their plasmaguns from inside a chimera then suffer enough to force a morale check. RAW cannot address this situation adequately. Sometimes both RAI and RAW both need to be explored to find the best solution. G :) Err... what? RAW always yields the right results (assuming it yields a result) - its the RAW. Just because you don't like a result doesn't make it wrong. When RAW fails to yield a result a houserule is needed. Houserules are houserules. There's a difference between "home grown rules" and interpreted meanings of RAW. The Homegrown Rules forum is for player-created rules, units, codices, etc. RAI is player created rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If the vast majority of payers don't agree with the results from RAW then no it is probably not acceptable as a solution. It has nothing to do with what you like or don't like. It is all about finding the correct solution. You obviously have a strong bias in favor of RAW so I think your perception is distorted as a result. Me - I will use both RAW and RAI... I have no bias towards either. As far as intent goes often we can figure out what was not the intent of the designer(s). G :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 RAI is player created rules. Well actually player-created interpretations of RAW rules rather than player-created rules per se :P. It's a thin distinction maybe, but take a look in the Homebrew section at some of the 'creative' rules ideas to see what I mean. But your sentiment is right in that its non-RAW 'House-rule' solution. ^_^ Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That doesnt make RAW always the best solution. G :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 All of this personal opinion is getting really boring, especially when it is nothing more than repetition of things that have been said many times before. More importantly, it blatantly ignores the guidance in the rulebook. ...it is important to remember that the rules are just a framework to create an enjoyable game. Winning at any cost is less important than making sure both players - not just the victor - have a good time. If a dispute does crop up then work out the answer in a gentlemanly manner. Many players simply like to roll-off and let the dice decide who is right, allowing them to get straight back to blasting each other to pieces. After the game you can happily continue your discussion of the finer points of the rules, or agree how you will both interpret them should the same situation happen again. You could even decide the change the rules to suit you better (this is known as a 'house rule'). The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines the choice is entirely yours. As we all know, RAW is the preferred solution. As we've all seen, RAW doesn't always yield logical results. For those players that still want to use RAW results, even if they don't find them logical, good on you. Other players, however, might decide to find another solution, either RAI or homegrown. If they want a homegrown solution, we have a forum for that. If they prefer to go with RAI, this is the forum. No one here is forcing anyone to play the game in a manner they don't like - whether strict RAW or RAI. We're here to help each other. If you find RAI objectionable, then simply ignore those discussions. You're not suffering one bit from other players discussing an RAI solution, and neither is the hobby. Players and the hobby suffer, however, when inappropriate limits are placed. The rulebook allows RAI, so who are you guys to say that players shouldn't use it? Don't bother trying to answer that question - it's rhetorical. None of you has the right to prevent anyone from discussing RAI, especially when the rulebook specifically allows for it. And before anyone makes a mistake in interpreting what I've said, the above is not opinion. Consider it B&C policy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I love this place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2971974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 *waves little B&C flag* Hooray for Brother Tyler! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2972014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 *waves little B&C flag* Hooray for Brother Tyler! :) Seconded! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2972040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 And before anyone makes a mistake in interpreting what I've said, the above is not opinion. Consider it B&C policy. Can we use RAI of the B&C's RAW? ^_^ :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245066-method-of-the-or/page/4/#findComment-2972202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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