Spear of Achilles Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Don't know if this was covered. Beast of War (Yeah they are often shoddy on their knowledge) video gave an example of splitting off your IC so he can benefit from the Move through Cover rule all IC inherently get, to try and have better odds to assault a eldar guardian squad about 8" away through a lot of area terrain. My question is this: can the IC say he's letting the squad move (and make it's difficult terrain test by itself...assuming they roll better than 1" so he's out of coherency), or does he have to move before them? In other words, can a unit move and leave the IC behind (out of coherency) and then allow my IC to move on its own), or do I have to move him away first? Nothing in the rules says he must move first, but the rule DOES say he must move out of coherency with the unit to leave it. In this particual example, having the unit move first (if legal) offers a weird slingshot advantage. If I roll 'Shanter' to move through cover with the normal unit, the IC can then roll 3d6 for move through cover and still end his movement probably both ahead and yet still within 2" to end his movement in coherency, rejoining the unit which will probably let me slingshot the rest of the squad into melee with the pointy ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptinLoken Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You can't act as if your going to move the unit then ... move the Character... you would have to say flat out before either dice or rolled that The IC is independent again and the squad is moving away... and he will be next... I'll double check the rules but to me that is totally legal.. I done something similar with Shrike and a tactical squad the only difference is jumpack naturally allow you to move further.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear of Achilles Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 I know you'd have to say he's indy again. But do you have to move him 2" and then declare it? Or can you say he's indy, then roll the regular unit's move? Some peeps are telling me the unit can't leave the character sitting there, the IC has to be the one who moves first, to get that 2" range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 What you cant do for all practical pruposes is make them independant, and then rejoin the squad in the same turn. Why? Because we only check their status once, at the end of the movement phase. A unit will always move at the slowest speed- you cant leave the unit to get a second roll and then not actually leave the unit, because that would then invalidate your previous roll and hed have to move at the slower speed- or the unit would have to move at his if that was indeed the slower speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The IC must move first. *He* (or she) must move out of coherency with the squad to break being joined to it. Not 'the squad can move out of coherency with the IC'. The IC must do the moving out of coherency. ICs can also only join a squad at the end of the IC's own move by moving into coherency. If the squad moves first, the IC *must* move with teh squad - he is still part of it and there is no mechanism for the squad leaving the IC behind. If the squad moves second, the IC cannot join the squad because there is no mechanism for a squad joining an IC, only for an IC joining a squad. Now, you can slingshot *a different* unit than the one you started the turn with, but not the unit you started the turn with. (Its all explicitly laid out on p48.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The cheesy ideas some peeps come up with, you should be embarressed about yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the squad moves first, the IC *must* move with teh squad - he is still part of it and there is no mechanism for the squad leaving the IC behind. Not always true, for example BRB pg. 67 They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard,.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If the squad moves first, the IC *must* move with teh squad - he is still part of it and there is no mechanism for the squad leaving the IC behind. Not always true, for example BRB pg. 67 They can also disembark separately by either the unit or the characters disembarking while the others remain onboard,.... Disembarking is not moving. It has its own rules distinct from that of movement. Models which disembark are notably "deployed", not "moved". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear of Achilles Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 The cheesy ideas some peeps come up with, you should be embarressed about yourself. Secretly I hate myself. Because of your admonishment. Still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear of Achilles Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 we only check their status once, at the end of the movement phase. If that were true, you'd only be able to leave the squad at the end of the movement phase. It really comes down to if the squad can leave the IC first. There is no rule that says you cannot leave/join the same unit over the phase. The closest we come to is embark/disembark limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If I roll 'Shanter' to move through cover with the normal unit, the IC can then roll 3d6 for move through cover and still end his movement probably both ahead and yet still within 2" to end his movement in coherency, rejoining the unit which will probably let me slingshot the rest of the squad into melee with the pointy ears. The underlined part is where it becomes patently illegal - the IC started the turn joined to the unit, the IC ended the turn joined to the unit therefore the IC stayed with the unit and is restricted to the movement of the unit (and their DT roll). This "slingshotting" of ICs has been debated elsewhere in the +OR+ forum, ad nauseum, and every variant hinges on word-games played with the rule which simply aren't supported by RAW... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The thread dswanick mentions can be found here. It boils down to these two options: 1. ICs' status are checked only at the end of the phase- the only RAW that exists on the matter describes determining coherency after moves have been made. If this option is used, if the IC is attached to the unit at the start of the phase, the IC remains attached to the unit until determined to be out of coherency at the end of the phase and must use the movement of the attached unit. (Adding to the credence of this argument is that there are no "incremental" moves- that is, you declare you are moving the "combined unit" of the IC and the unit. In the process of moving this one unit, you move the IC out of coherency. The IC's allowed movement distance does not suddenly "refresh" and become longer.) 2. ICs' may leave the unit during the movement phase and utilize their superior speed. However, if the IC began the movement phase attached to the unit and ended the movement phase attached to the unit, then the IC never really left the unit, did it? And the IC should have used the attached unit's movement speed throughout the turn, making the IC's use of increased movement speed illegal. What it really comes down to is the whole "slingshot" thing is just a rules-laywered abuse of the rules. -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 we only check their status once, at the end of the movement phase. If that were true, you'd only be able to leave the squad at the end of the movement phase. It really comes down to if the squad can leave the IC first. There is no rule that says you cannot leave/join the same unit over the phase. The closest we come to is embark/disembark limitations. Ah, but it is true- heres a quote: In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase. That is the only way to join a unit other than joining it inside a transport, and the end of the movement phase only occurs once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 we only check their status once, at the end of the movement phase. If that were true, you'd only be able to leave the squad at the end of the movement phase. It really comes down to if the squad can leave the IC first. There is no rule that says you cannot leave/join the same unit over the phase. The closest we come to is embark/disembark limitations. Ah, but it is true- heres a quote: In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move so that he is within 2" coherency distance of a friendly unit at the end of their movement phase. That is the only way to join a unit other than joining it inside a transport, and the end of the movement phase only occurs once. Its not the end of *the* movement phase, its the end of *their* (the ICs) movement phase. The only rules provided allow ICs to join and leave other squads. They do not permit other squads to join or leave ICs by moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Units dont have personal movement phases- there is simply a movement phase in wich they get to act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Units dont have personal movement phases- there is simply a movement phase in wich they get to act. Ignoring the word 'their' in the sentence really isn't plausible, it changes the meaning of the sentence. And effectively units do have their own movement phases. Once you've moved a unit you cannot go back and change that movement later. Their movement phase is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The BRB defines a singular movement phase- not a singular movement phase for each unit in the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The BRB defines a singular movement phase- not a singular movement phase for each unit in the army. If we're going to insist on this... In which case ICs always move like their squad in the turn in which they break coherency, since we can't actually check until everyone has moved, and thus they were a part of the squad during their move. This makes slingshots impossible because the IC can never use its own special movement rules in a turn in which it leaves a squad, because it hasn't left a squad until ALL movement is over. I'm pretty sure no one actually plays like that. If we're going to let ICs leave during the middle of a movement phase based on their move and let them have access to their own movement profile, we need to also force them to join squads during their own movement. Basically, there are only two consistent interpretations of the rules, both of which treat joining and leaving as happening at the same time. Whether you think this is the end of the movement phase or the end of the ICs personal movement effects what the IC can actually do the turn he leaves, but neither permits an IC to leave and rejoin the same unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In which case ICs always move like their squad in the turn in which they break coherency, since we can't actually check until everyone has moved, and thus they were a part of the squad during their move. This makes slingshots impossible because the IC can never use its own special movement rules in a turn in which it leaves a squad, because it hasn't left a squad until ALL movement is over. Yep, that's the RAW. :P But outside of a RAW perspective, it doesn't make sense; I allow my opponents' IC's to leave units at their full speed just as my IC's leave units at their full speed. But neither I nor my opponents then use the slingshot maneuver- we do not attempt to illegally rejoin the IC to the units, so it works for us. And for everyone else. When it becomes a problem is when people like Stelek (who popularized the slingshot) abuse fair, reasonable play styles to gain an unfair, unreasonable advantage- and makes us find those obscure bits of RAW that prove the maneuver is illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelloid Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In which case ICs always move like their squad in the turn in which they break coherency, since we can't actually check until everyone has moved, and thus they were a part of the squad during their move. This makes slingshots impossible because the IC can never use its own special movement rules in a turn in which it leaves a squad, because it hasn't left a squad until ALL movement is over. Yep, that's the RAW. :P But outside of a RAW perspective, it doesn't make sense; I allow my opponents' IC's to leave units at their full speed just as my IC's leave units at their full speed. But neither I nor my opponents then use the slingshot maneuver- we do not attempt to illegally rejoin the IC to the units, so it works for us. And for everyone else. When it becomes a problem is when people like Stelek (who popularized the slingshot) abuse fair, reasonable play styles to gain an unfair, unreasonable advantage- and makes us find those obscure bits of RAW that prove the maneuver is illegal. I actually prefer the interpretation that each squad has its own movement phase. De Facto it does (once you've moved a unit and gone on you can't go back to it - effectively it had its own movement phase). And its how people actually play ICs leaving squads. The wording 'their movement phase' supports this view as well. If certain models can own a movement phase, then one Movement Phase contains multiple movement phases owned by the models that are moving at the time. The other interpretation, while consistent with the layout of the text, isn't consistent with the models owning movement phases. It doesn't actually bother me which version is true, I'd just like the rules to be consistent about which of the two it seemed to believe was the case. But we're certainly agreed that ICs can't slingshot a squad they started the turn with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 ;) I'm shocked, but happy, that you and I have managed to find common ground over something :D Honestly, even if units had their own "sub phases" it would still work the same. 1. Choose unit to begin "sub phase" - in this case, the IC and the unit they are attached to, since they are still a single unit. 2. Move the unit - in this case, we are moving the IC and the unit 6", in slightly different directions so they end their movement out of coherency. 3. Check coherency - the IC and unit are found to be out of coherency and are now separate units. But they have both already finished their movement, and the IC is disallowed from gaining a second movement phase with increased distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 We had this battle out before. <3 As GM says, coherency is checked at the end of the phase. There is nothing mandating that the IC must move first during the Movement phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Purely and simply - you would disallow this situation: Unit +IC standing on a hill, unit wants to move off the hill and IC wants to stay there, but cant, since you want the IC to move away first. Falls down the moment you dont want to move the IC really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spear of Achilles Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 True. Peeps are against it because it seems cheesy...but it is allowed RAW. Otherwise a squad can never move if the IC doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Purely and simply - you would disallow this situation: Unit +IC standing on a hill, unit wants to move off the hill and IC wants to stay there, but cant, since you want the IC to move away first. Falls down the moment you dont want to move the IC really. True. Peeps are against it because it seems cheesy...but it is allowed RAW. Otherwise a squad can never move if the IC doesn't. And the rules lawyer in me says there is nothing in the rules stating I can't move the IC 0.000000000000000000000000000001", and the squad far enough away from the IC to affect the "Detachment".:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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