Dreadnought or Dreadknight?

[Stormshadow]

Hello everyone!

 

I am going to be playing in a couple’s tournament and would like some advice. I will be playing in a defensive role. Fist mission I have to hold 3 objectives, Second mission I have to keep my opponent out of my table quarter and third mission I have to keep my opponent away from the center of the table. Since I only need good scoring units in the first mission and nasty killy stuff in the others, I was planning to use GS to make units scoring in the first mission and more nasty in the others. I figure that ether Venerable dreadnoughts or Dreadknights are good for this, but which is the best? Does anyone have any numbers on how many Missiles/Las Cannon shots it takes to bring down the two, or how many Power Weapons/Power Fists it takes? My guess would be that the ven dread is better vs Las Cannons and Power weapons and that the Dreadknight is better vs Fists and missiles. What are your thoughts? Below are two lists I was thinking about playing.

 

HQ:

 

Draigo 275

 

Inquisitor: Power Armor, Force Weapon/Hammer Hand, Grenades, Plasma syphon, combi-melta, 2x servo skulls. 119

 

Elites:

 

Venerable dreadnought: Plasma, HF, psy-flame. 200

 

Venerable dreadnought: Plasma, HF, psy-flame. 200

 

Troops:

 

5x paladins: 2. Mc-Psycannon, Apothacary. 400

 

1x Paladin: 55p

 

Sum: 1249

 

 

HQ:

 

Draigo 275

 

Inquisitor: Power Armor, Force Weapon/Hammer Hand, Grenades, Plasma syphon, combi-melta, 2x servo skulls. 119

 

Elites:

 

Dread Knight: Sword, teleporter 230

 

Dread Knight: Hammer, Heavy Insinerator 170

 

Troops:

 

5x paladins: 2. Mc-Psycannon, Apothacary. 400

 

1x Paladin: 55p

 

Sum: 1249

[number6]

I really think you're going to need the dreadnoughts for their firepower. If you go with dreadknights, you have no shooting phase whatsoever, and in 1250 pts, that's a recipe for total disaster, even in a team tournament. Draigo + 5 Paladins are enough of an assault hammer -- and difficult enough to remove via enemy shooting -- that I don't believe dreadknights add anything useful to the list. But the psyflemen will aid your partner and give you a more well-rounded offense.

 

Yes, I said "psyflemen". You shouldn't be taking plasma cannons in this list. In essence, you were asking about using either a dreadnought or a dreadknight in virtually identical tactical roles. I think that's a mistake. As noted, let your paladins primary focus be enemy infantry. You should diversify your attack by bringing some shooting -- especially anti-armour shooting.

 

Therefore, my recommendation comes with the caveat that you use the psyfleman build (2x TLAC + psybolts) for your dreads. Otherwise ... I guess you should use the DKs, since they're better in the roles you envision than dreadnoughts. But I think that would be a mistake....

 

You can also recoup A LOT of points by dropping the Apothecary and venerable status of the dreads.

 

In the case of the Apothecary: he just doesn't add anything. Pallies are already virtually immune to small arms fire because of double wounds and wound allocation shenanigans. Furthermore, apothecaries can't save instant death-causing wounds, which is the majority of fire that should be coming their way. But you have Draigo to suck up a good chunk of that, too. IMHO, that is 75 pts very much wasted that could be better repurposed.

 

In the case of venerable dread status: I'll be the first to admit that paying for venerable status is worth every point, especially on long-distance shooting dreads that aren't likely to take a bunch of power fist or thunder hammer hits at once. But when taken twice, that's 120 pts!

 

Add those two upgrades together and you get a whopping 195 pts!! That's a lot of army list you could buy for that. For instance, you could have two normal psyfleman dreads AND a venerable psyfleman dread for those points! You could have two normal psyflemen dreads AND pay for a decent dreadknight (without a teleporter, of course). You could have two normal psyflemen dreads AND a whole heckuva lot more paladins. A bigger unit, some solo units for deep striking goodness, and so on and so forth. The possibilities are practically endless. I think this is definitely the way to go.

[Stormshadow]

I should probably mention that although it is a couple’s tournament, i will be playing these tree missions alone. My partner is of steeling points and my mission is to stop my opponent from steeling points from us. My opponent does not have to take objectives or score kill points, all he have to do is to make sure I mess up. In the first mission for example, wee loos 10 points for every Objective that I do not control at the end of the game. If I roll a 1 or a 2 for grand strategy, I will basically only have 3 scoring units, the unstoppable Paladin squad, the lone paladin and let’s say a psyflemen dread. I am expecting to encounter many drop pods, and a podded Ironclad will easely kill a psyflemen in turn one or two. My best bet would be to reserve everything exept the paladins and HQ, and for this reason I thought that something with a cc capability would be better than psyflemen… I heard some were that a venerable dreadnought was the ultimate objective holder in terms of surviving. But in the scenario of an Ironclad, Grater Daemon ore MC dropping down or popping up, I was wondering if a DK wouldn’t survive a bit longer… That was my original question any way, which one can take the biggest beating… My list and tournament aside, which model would survive the longest?

[number6]

My list and tournament aside, which model would survive the longest?

That's an unanswerable question. It totally depends on what kind of threat is attacking your dreadnought/dreadknight.

 

Monstrous Creatures != Walkers

 

All the advice I gave earlier about rounding out your offensive package goes double, triple, QUADRUPLE if you're fighting on your own without the aid of a partner army. Without diversifying with some actual shooting, you have a very limited, mono-dimensional army. ;)

[Stormshadow]

Thank you for all the feedback Number 6. I finally sat down to math-hammer it all out.

 

A regular Dread gets killed by one third of its penetrating hits. The venerable dread boosts this up to one sixth, to get six pens on a venerable dreadnought you need the following amounts of shots.

 

Missile: 27 shots, 18 hits, 6 penetrating

 

Power Fist: 36swings, 18 hits, 6 penetrating.

 

Las Cannon: 24 shots, 12 hits, 6 penetrating.

 

(Any “one” good shot or swing will kill the dread, this is only statistics)

 

The Dread Knight has wounds, and so you need more than one lucky shot to kill it, in fact you need 4.

 

Missile: 43,2 To hit, 28,8 to wound, 24 to save, 4 wounds

 

Power Fist: 14,4 to hit, 7,2 to wound, 6 to save, 4 wounds

 

Las Cannon: 10,8 to hit, 7,2 to Wound, 6 to save, 4 Wounds

 

The Venerable Dreadnought is better against everything except Missiles and Meltas. One good shot will kill it however, unlike the Dreadknight that needs to suffer 4 wounds, and even if the venerable Dreadnought does not get wrecked or destroyed it may still be immobilized or loose a weapon, but then again everything with S3 can harm the Dreadknight. A ten man Space Marine Squad that fires 8 bolters, a plasma gun and a missile launcher into a Dreadknight is going to do the following:

 

Missile: 0,09 Wounds

 

Plasma: 0,3 Wounds

 

Bolters 0,15 Wounds

 

For a venerable Dread:

 

Missile: 0,22 to get a penetrating hit, 0,07 for it to be a bad one (that you can always reroll :( )

 

Plasma: 0,11 to get a Penetrating hit, 0,04 for it to be a bad one (that you can always reroll ;) )

 

My personal feeling is that the Venerable dreadnought is more resilient, but I can’t say for certain.

 

On a side note, I decided to drop the lists I was contemplating all together and decided on a Coteaz henchmen army. More shooting more scoring and better countercharge.

[nurglez]

Though, that is only vs heavy weapons. Dreads are immune to lasguns and up to str 5 in their front and side arc, while a dk isn't. A dk is also harder to get cover saves with.

 

I prefer dks myself, as I feel Psyrifle dreads are too good for their cost.