Parry

[Gentlemanloser]

Trawling through the, rumoured, changes upcoming with 6th (reading off other sites, was to slow to snag a copy myself! :)), apart from Assault Weapons counting as a second CCW (so 2 attacks for Strikes/Interceptors and 3 for Puri's/GKT!) I saw this little gem;

 

Power weapons now have the parry rule, which grants a 5++ in HtH! Awesome! A reason to take them.

 

I wonder if Nemesis Force Swords will have the Parry rule?

 

Would give all our Strikes a 4++ in CC?

 

Damn...

 

Edit;

 

Oh and'

 

Monstrous creatures now hit with a weapon that is 2xS, ap 2

 

Doomfist and Greatsword back to S10?

[Oiad]

First part sounds OP but really we don't know what other changes could happen to affect it all. Could be that if yesterday's leak is true and we all get FAQ'd that the army may see some very radical changes.

[Drachnon]

That sounds really really broken if it were true.

 

My competitive GK lists are already considered overpowered in my gaming group.

 

On the other hand we don't have power weapons but force weapons so maybe we don't get the 5++ or 4++ inv save.

The extra attack from assault weapons sounds kinda ridiculous so I wouldn't give too weight to that rumour.

On the double strength for monstrous creatures, it pretty much means that all MC's are S10 (I wouldn't know any that have base strength 5) which in turn would mean that MC's are even better at killing vehicles then they already are (unless they lose their second D6 penetration) and would between monstrous creature make all T lower then 9 pointless. So again I don't think we can be expecting that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just reading the Codex updates.

 

First thing of note, the Summoning is fixed by makign it a 'Teleport Move', which works with Teleport Homers.

[RedemptionNL]

Heh, those two were the first points I picked up from the rulebook as well. :)

 

On the other hand we don't have power weapons but force weapons so maybe we don't get the 5++ or 4++ inv save.

Force weapon still state they follow the rules of power weapons.

 

The extra attack from assault weapons sounds kinda ridiculous so I wouldn't give too weight to that rumour.

I think the trade off for that extra attack is that you can't shoot them before you make an assault move anymore. Make stuff like storm bolters better for power weapon wielding models, but makes flamers and such worse.

 

On the double strength for monstrous creatures, it pretty much means that all MC's are S10 (I wouldn't know any that have base strength 5) which in turn would mean that MC's are even better at killing vehicles then they already are (unless they lose their second D6 penetration) and would between monstrous creature make all T lower then 9 pointless. So again I don't think we can be expecting that.

Yeah that one struck me as odd as well. Makes the daemon hammer somewhat of a pointless upgrade, as you lose an attack to get the thunderhammer initiative reducing Stun effect. But of course, when switching editions, some obsole wargear options are to be expected I guess.

[Gentlemanloser]

We'll also need an updated Codex FAQ as well, to list out all the 'levels' of Special Rules our units have.

 

Like what level is Draigo's EW?

 

Edit;

 

Patch Up

 

Remove Wound allocation shenanigans, and nerfs the durability of Paladins.

 

Basically, if as the end of your turn, a unit of multi wound minis has minis at less than full wounds, you *must* take a wound off of an injured mini, to heal another wounded mini. Even if this means you remove them as a casualty.

 

This *must* continue until only a single mini in the unit is blow max wounds....

 

:'(

 

Sadpanda if this goes live.

 

Found this on Parry;

 

Normally, power weapons lose the parry

rule if the weapon has any additional special rule;

master-crafted power weapons, however, still

confer a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat.

 

I'm takign it that Corse Wepaons are tihngs like Power Fists/Hammers;

 

Coarse weapons can be used as secondary

weapon for other weapons as normal.

 

:)

 

You still need 2 of the same to get the extra attack with them though. And Assault Wepaons can only be secondary weapons, they don't give +1A if you don't have a primary weapon.

 

Templates (like our Incinerators) can 'Fire Sweep' in CC. D6 attacks at minis I, S and AP of the Template Weapon. Auto hit! :lol: WooT!

 

As for the Doomfists;

 

If a dreadnought close combat

weapon is used by a model that is not a walker, it

has only Strength S.

 

Boo. :tu:

 

OH it gets better. NDKs are *massively* nerfed.

 

Other MCs get "MC CCW" instead of Dreadnought ones. MC CCW give 2xS and the edxtra d6 pen.

 

So as it stands, the NDK lose the extra d6 pen, and only have normal Strength...

 

Suckage...

 

More Confusion. MCs come with the 'Monstrous' rule as standard, which gives them MC CCW. I suppose we'll have to wait and see whether our MC actually gets the 'Monstrous' Special Rule or not... And then, if so, what the heck Doomfists count as...

 

 

This will need a FAQ;

 

Some very rare power weapons may even

give a Strength bonus or have other additional

special rules, as detailed in the appropriate army

Codex; these weapons lose the Parry special rule,

though.

 

 

Parry: A power weapon that has no additional

special rule confers an invulnerable save of 5+

against Strike actions to its wielder.

 

OK, so NFH and NDH will lose Parry, sure. But does the +1I Save of the Nemesis Force Sword mean they lose Parry? Would be *utterly* pointless if they do...

[Oiad]

1. NDK - No loss for me, hate the thing. :lol:
   
2. NFS - I'm doubting they'll get the Parry bonus. From what I remember it wasn't in the FAQ either.
   
3. NFW+SB - Better yet, two attacks in close-combat to make up for loss of whittling before assault sounds good.
   
4. Paladins - Shame but other armies will surely rejoice at the nerf.
   

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, a Strike Justicar can just MC his NFS. But it sucks that it seems like the fairly useless +1I Save was tacked on just to deny our Strikes Parry come 6th...

 

As GKT/Pallies get a better 5+ anyway...

 

A Purgation Squad with 4 Incinerators might be quite beastly in CC. ;)

 

Stick a MC NFS on the Justicar so he has a 4+ Invulnerable Save, and the 4 Incinerators do 4d6 S6 AP4 auto hits in CC. ;)

[breng77]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that they are force weapons adds a special rule called channel and would deny parry anyway. The way I read the weapon rules is that a force weapon still ignores armor, but instead of parry has channel.

[RedemptionNL]

Patch Up

Remove Wound allocation shenanigans, and nerfs the durability of Paladins.

 

Basically, if as the end of your turn, a unit of multi wound minis has minis at less than full wounds, you *must* take a wound off of an injured mini, to heal another wounded mini. Even if this means you remove them as a casualty.

 

This *must* continue until only a single mini in the unit is blow max wounds....

 

:'(

 

Sadpanda if this goes live.

Well, complex multi-wound models had this nerf coming for a while didn't they? It's hardly suprising they did something to change this in the new edition, and this solution seems elegant enough. And you still have control over which model dies first.

 

I'm takign it that Corse Wepaons are tihngs like Power Fists/Hammers;

Yeah, Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers.

 

And Assault Wepaons can only be secondary weapons, they don't give +1A if you don't have a primary weapon.

Aye, so units like Choppa Boys still have more attacks than Shoota Boys.

 

Templates (like our Incinerators) can 'Fire Sweep' in CC. D6 attacks at minis I, S and AP of the Template Weapon. Auto hit! ;) WooT!

Ah, that explains. ;)

 

OH it gets better. NDKs are *massively* nerfed.

 

Other MCs get "MC CCW" instead of Dreadnought ones. MC CCW give 2xS and the edxtra d6 pen.

 

So as it stands, the NDK lose the extra d6 pen, and only have normal Strength...

 

Suckage...

 

More Confusion. MCs come with the 'Monstrous' rule as standard, which gives them MC CCW. I suppose we'll have to wait and see whether our MC actually gets the 'Monstrous' Special Rule or not... And then, if so, what the heck Doomfists count as...

 

This will need a FAQ;

This seems to be a problem with all the MCs that wield seperate melee weapons, such as the swords Wraithlords can weild. All MCs seem to get that 2S AP2 MC weapon, but does that mean you have to choose with which weapon you attack? Perhaps this is fixed in the final version, else a FAQ is needed indeed.

 

OK, so NFH and NDH will lose Parry, sure. But does the +1I Save of the Nemesis Force Sword mean they lose Parry? Would be *utterly* pointless if they do...

 

Well, the Nemesis weapons would pretty much operate as they do in the current edition then I guess. :) I do wonder if master-crafting a power weapon now always gives the 5+ invulnerable save, or if the 'no other special rules' requirement still applies.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think the master crafting would keep the 5+.

 

So a MC NDH or NFH would also give a 5+ Invulnerable in CC. :D

[RedemptionNL]

Ohh, vehicles with AV14 front armour get the Behemoth rule, which means they get Multi-targetting (3). So Land Raiders of any variant can now shoot up to 3 weapons on the move, and up to 6 when standing still. No more defensive weapons. -_-

 

And MCs can perform a Ram (old tankshock) now, where every non-massive model of the target unit that would be under the base receives an armour-ignoring hit. That seems kinda fun, especially with a large oval base such as the Dreadknight. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Missed the Ram!

 

Jimmeny Crickets! NDKs with PTs here I come!

 

Edit: I couldn't find reference to double shots if stationary. Our MCs only get Multi Target (1) don't they? And anyway, you can only shot a single weapon once, no matter how high your MT is. :/

[Something Wycked]

The "double shots" are for the Fast rule:

 

Fast rule: shoot twice if stationary, shoot normally after moving or charging

So Multi-Target is for firing multiple weapons, once each, while Fast allows you to fire twice.

[Gentlemanloser]

LR's aren't Fast, but Stormravens would benefit from this. Especially as they would also have some variant of MT (form PotMS).

 

Assault Vehicles got nerfed slightly. You can only Combat/Engage form them, so no 12" charges out of a LR now.

 

Cover Saves

Cover saves can only be used against shooting

attacks.

 

So no Cover saves for the Callidus' Polymorphine attacks.

 

S6 no longer IDs T3. You need to exceed T by 4, and you deal an extra wound. So an Inquisitor getting hit by S6 no longer dies by ID, but only take a single wound. A S7 attack would cause 2W and S8 would cause 3.

 

Slightly buffed for T3 units here.

[RedemptionNL]

Read the Multi-targetting rule on page 73 for the double number of weapons reference. All tanks get Multi-targetting (2), with Behemoths getting (3). Certain actions also take 1 or more shooting 'actions'. For instance, firing an Ordnance weapon takes 2 multi-targetting 'actions', while firing an ordnance barrange takes 4 (so you have to stay stationary to fire it).

 

If you have the Multi-targetting (X) rule, you can also do an action called Divide fire, which takes 1 targetting action, and you can spend the remaining actions on shooting weapons at as many different targets as he likes. So a regular Tank like a Predator can now fire 2 weapons at combat speed, or when stationary, up to 4 weapons at the same target, or up to 3 weapons at different targets.

 

And of course a Land Raider could then fire 3 weapons at the same target at combat speed, or 2 weapons at different targets. Or when stationary, fire up to 6 weapons at the same target, or up to 5 weapons at different targets.

[Gentlemanloser]

I read that, but I think this is one of the unfinished sections. ;)

 

There's talk of units without MT taking additional shooting actions to fire ordinance weapons, which shouldn't be possible, unless you take multiple turns to do so.

 

he MT rule references shooting twice, but no real way of doing so. And anyway, you can only shoot a weapon once, so if you only have three guns, it's pointless to have a MT(6).

 

There's a mention in the Gunship rule to multiplying your MT by 6 instead of 2, if stationary. I can hardly think how that would *ever* be necessary.

 

I think we're missing something here. :huh:

[number6]

FWIW, this has been almost certainly identified as a fake. Higher ups here on the B&C have "connections", and apparently GW investigated because they were worried an actual leak had come from the printers in China, where the real 6e rules apparently are at the moment. The PDFs circulating are not the real thing, so GW is unconcerned.

 

Best to play wait-n-see, folks. :o

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, it will certainly be interesting to see how close actual 6th is to these rules. ;) (Edit: Maybe GW were worried about a leak of the *actual* rules, and not this unfinished early playtest version! :o)

 

Just like the leaked GK dex!

 

Until we see the actual stuff, I have more thoughts on the leaks. ;)

 

Looking further at Teleport Moves and The Summoning, neither seem to specify any scatter. It's a shame it's not an 'assault' move though.

[RedemptionNL]

I read that, but I think this is one of the unfinished sections. :o

 

There's talk of units without MT taking additional shooting actions to fire ordinance weapons, which shouldn't be possible, unless you take multiple turns to do so.

 

he MT rule references shooting twice, but no real way of doing so. And anyway, you can only shoot a weapon once, so if you only have three guns, it's pointless to have a MT(6).

 

MT gives multiple shooting actions, and it takes 2 Heavy Fire actions to fire a single Ordnance weapon. And if you have 3 weapons, MT(6) is still useful to use on actions such as Divide Fire, so your 3 weapons can fire at different targets.

 

There's a mention in the Gunship rule to multiplying your MT by 6 instead of 2, if stationary. I can hardly think how that would *ever* be necessary.

 

I think we're missing something here. ;)

Well, take a Stormraven for example (not sure if it actually has the Gunship rule). With turret weapon, nose weapon, 2 hurricane bolter sponsons and 4 missiles you're already at 8 weapons. As a Stormraven is not a Tank, you only get MT(1) unless another rule increases it.

[Gentlemanloser]

I have a feeling the Stormraven will have the same MT as a LR, due to PotMS.

[RedemptionNL]

Ah, yes, found it in the FAQ; PotMS always gives the Behemoth rule, so Stormravens also have MT(3). No Gunship rule required to fire 6 weapons when stationary then. :)

[RedemptionNL]

Hmm, as Halberds are two-handed weapons, you don't get the extra attack from Assault weapons, that's a pity. So you gain +2I, but lose an attack compared to the Sword. Daemon hammers never get the extra attack because of the Coarse rule.

 

Lol, and Falchions now finally do give +2 attacks; because they are not 2 separate close combat weapons (else you would have gained the extra attack in the current situation), you can declare the storm bolter as your secondary weapon. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Where are Halberds mentioned as 2H? I couldn't see it in the Codex Update PDF. :/

 

But yeah, at least some validity for Falchions now! They do give +2A, with a StormBolter! :)

[RedemptionNL]

Where are Halberds mentioned as 2H? I couldn't see it in the Codex Update PDF. :/

 

In the current GK codex. :) See the Halberd entry on page 54.