donnyb Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 How exactly do you move the unit. The unit moves as far as possible towards the closest visible enemy. Does this mean as long as the nearest DC moves the full distance towards the closest enemy, and the rest of the unit stays in coherence, but don't all individually move the full distance, the move is legal? The UNIT is as close as it will get. Very badly written rule, I would like to know how it is played. Important tourney coming up I'd like to know a consensus. o= enemy X=DC .. = 1inch .......o....x..x..x...x..x..x..x......o (start off with two enemies, left is 1" closer, but would much rather charge juicy one on right) .......o..x....x..x...x..x..x..x......o (DC on left moves closer, noone else has to move, unit is now closer to left enemy, but within charge range of right enemy?) or ......0..xxxxxxxx....................o (everyone moves close to left, and right enemy now out of charge range? DC all bunched up, ready for juicy pie plate of doom. :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would suggest reading this :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would suggest reading this :) I would too ! :lol: :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I read your thread Morti,didn't fly with my gaming group. Got called all sorts of names from cheese monkey, waac gamer to nsportsman-like. I move them all towars the closest enemy intemplate me formation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I read your thread Morti,didn't fly with my gaming group. Got called all sorts of names from cheese monkey, waac gamer to nsportsman-like. I move them all towars the closest enemy intemplate me formation Bummer about your group then Blitz.. :) Fortunately for us, Mort's got it right. May as well use it to your advantage... -CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I read your thread Morti,didn't fly with my gaming group. Got called all sorts of names from cheese monkey, waac gamer to nsportsman-like. I move them all towars the closest enemy intemplate me formation Its a pity youre being bullied by people that cant seem to read. (Though thats usually the case, yeh?) Print out that quote, with the pictures and ask them politely why they think its incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I read your thread Morti,didn't fly with my gaming group. Got called all sorts of names from cheese monkey, waac gamer to nsportsman-like. I move them all towars the closest enemy intemplate me formation Its a pity youre being bullied by people that cant seem to read. (Though thats usually the case, yeh?) Print out that quote, with the pictures and ask them politely why they think its incorrect. The reason I've always heard is because its "unfluffy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I read your thread Morti,didn't fly with my gaming group. Got called all sorts of names from cheese monkey, waac gamer to nsportsman-like. I move them all towars the closest enemy intemplate me formation Its a pity youre being bullied by people that cant seem to read. (Though thats usually the case, yeh?) Print out that quote, with the pictures and ask them politely why they think its incorrect. The reason I've always heard is because its "unfluffy" You know, ironically, this is one of the arguments I find more pallateable on account of the complainers acknowledging that it is/may be the case, yet it "feels" wrong. Blitz, if you want a longer, more detailed unpacking of that rule for your group, then let me know. I'll be happy to help out where possible!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thanks for the reply and link. I did search for threads but didn't find anything. When I was explaining the way to move I was told by the upcoming TO that I should move every model, but he was ruling based on fluff. Funny thing it seems most people "think" rage works in a certain way based on how they "think" a raged model would act, rather than by the way it says in the rules. I will be pointing him here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hey Morti, I think I used your general points to debate this. It honestly wasn't proven one way or another, I just gave up after getting belittled (before the debate even began) for about 90mins. In no way could anyone disprove to me that moving one model to 1" of an enemy unit and then moving the rest of the models towards a different target was moving the DC unit "as quickly as they can towards the closest visable enemy" I even used dice and string to show the unit as a cohesive whole and started by moving one section towards the enemy asking "is this as close as I can get to my closest visible enemy without assaulting?" of course the answer is yes. Then moving the rest of the unit, in coherency, towards another target. Then it all became "no you haven't moved the unit as close as you can because you didn't move all the models" I pointed out page two and the section where it says we measure distance from one unit to another by the closest to closest. So even though my last model is 10" away, the closest model is 1" away, therefore, the unit is considered 1" away from the enemy which we all know is as close as you can get to the enemy without assaulting. I went as far as to show other examples... if one model is in DT then the whole unit is in DT. If one model falls back the rules specificly state ALL models must move back 2D6 inches. If one model shoots and no other model in the unit has a shooting weapon they still all count as having shot and the remainder cannot choose to run. The worst part about this whole debate on rage is that 4 people, whom all do not use rage units and dislike how strong DC are for the points you pay, all sat down before I had a chance to present my case and decided I was wrong. So when I sat down with my one friend, he was already decided and is a stubborn guy. Got cut off a whole bunch while I was trying to debate and all that. I just gave up because they're whiners about not only this but my lists too. It's ridiculous that I'm even in this situation but I can only really game with them or 12 year olds down at the local GW. Phew... Was there some major point that perhaps I missed in my debate? It makes perfect sense to me to move them in "template me" formation fluff wise, but RAW doesn't state every model must move towards the closest visible enemey and is very careful to state in other rules that every model must do X, why the disconnect here? /end rant EDIT: Took out the paragraph where I was just whining/venting about off topic things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hey Morti, I think I used your general points to debate this. It honestly wasn't proven one way or another, I just gave up after getting belittled (before the debate even began) for about 90mins. In no way could anyone disprove to me that moving one model to 1" of an enemy unit and then moving the rest of the models towards a different target was moving the DC unit "as quickly as they can towards the closest visable enemy" I even used dice and string to show the unit as a cohesive whole and started by moving one section towards the enemy asking "is this as close as I can get to my closest visible enemy without assaulting?" of course the answer is yes. Then moving the rest of the unit, in coherency, towards another target. Then it all became "no you haven't moved the unit as close as you can because you didn't move all the models" I pointed out page two and the section where it says we measure distance from one unit to another by the closest to closest. So even though my last model is 10" away, the closest model is 1" away, therefore, the unit is considered 1" away from the enemy which we all know is as close as you can get to the enemy without assaulting. I went as far as to show other examples... if one model is in DT then the whole unit is in DT. If one model falls back the rules specificly state ALL models must move back 2D6 inches. If one model shoots and no other model in the unit has a shooting weapon they still all count as having shot and the remainder cannot choose to run. The worst part about this whole debate on rage is that 4 people, whom all do not use rage units and dislike how strong DC are for the points you pay, all sat down before I had a chance to present my case and decided I was wrong. So when I sat down with my one friend, he was already decided and is a stubborn guy. Got cut off a whole bunch while I was trying to debate and all that. I just gave up because they're whiners about not only this but my lists too. It's ridiculous that I'm even in this situation but I can only really game with them or 12 year olds down at the local GW. Phew... Was there some major point that perhaps I missed in my debate? It makes perfect sense to me to move them in "template me" formation fluff wise, but RAW doesn't state every model must move towards the closest visible enemey and is very careful to state in other rules that every model must do X, why the disconnect here? /end rant EDIT: Took out the paragraph where I was just whining/venting about off topic things I'm with you brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I have never personally played and to me it would make sense that if a model is part of the unit and the unit goes where its supposed to, what's the big deal about the farthest model? If the front bumper of a car is two inches from the car then the entire car is two inches from the car in front of it. No one complains about how far away the trunk or the rear bumper are. I don't know it just might be me but if it says the unit then it should be the unit. If the rules singled out the models, then it would be the models. I don't know it just seem like common sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Blitz, sounds like you argued it perfectly, but the guys are being selfish numpties. Sorry you're being bullied by bullies. Oh well. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Sounds like the TO is on board with the RAW interpretation of the rule. Says I should watch out for a sports hit though if I play it like that... doesn't seem right? >_> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Even though I totally agree with the RAW interpretation, I can kind of see why others might regard this as WAAC, bad sportsmanship etc. Moving the closest DC towards the closest enemy whilst forming a conga line across to another enemy is perfectly legal but it just doesn't feel right to me and I won't generally use this unless playing against someone who is taking liberties. For my own games, usually friendly games with mates, I move each model towards the nearest enemy but not in such a way as to bunch them up in a nice, pieplate-friendly, blob. With a big DC unit and poor positioning from my opponent I've managed to get off an assault against units they thought were safe before but in general I will end up assaulting the nearest unit, which to my mind is what they are supposed to do. Not going to win me any tournaments playing like that but it satisfies my own sense of honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 ... but not in such a way as to bunch them up in a nice, pieplate-friendly, blob. But why not? I mean, just like Blitz is experiencing, where do we draw that fuzzy grey line in the sand? For him, he has to blob move his models, because thats what he's being forced into doing, because by their RAI thats how it should be. This is where intent falls through in the face of obvious rules. You feel it fair for you to move towards the closest enemy, yet you feel it unfair (on yourself) to blob-move. Why? (I mean, honestly, its a rhetorical question. Of course I get why- cause "thematically" or "fluffwise" youre playing them as angry, not stupid) Yet both you and Blitz are playing by a level of RAI, and they're different and inconsistent? This is also why I call upon BA players to play fairly and honestly, by the rules and be unashamedly unapologetic for the way Rage is played. There is NO reason to feel sheepish, embarrassed or like a cheese-monkey/powergamer/any other silly name - its a clear rule, that has been misconstrued due to fluff interpretation of other players that dont play BA. Preventing yourself from playing like this in certain instances, or in reaction to other players only gives more credence to its supposed irregularity, as opposed to its de facto status. This is not an occasion where it's open to a myriad of interpretation, or there are aspects of ambiguity. There are none - on account of the rulebook defining everything nicely in this case. The rules for movement and rage are clear, and we fulfil our requirements and obligations to those rules by our unit moving as fast as possible towards the enemy - ie: the closest model to the closest enemy, in the most direct route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 mans got a point people- are we doing this to ourselves and creating a rod for our own backs by going with the easy option? Opponents are going to dislike dc whatever, might as well play by one of the few clearly defined rules in the book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 ... but not in such a way as to bunch them up in a nice, pieplate-friendly, blob. But why not? I mean, just like Blitz is experiencing, where do we draw that fuzzy grey line in the sand? For him, he has to blob move his models, because thats what he's being forced into doing, because by their RAI thats how it should be. This is where intent falls through in the face of obvious rules. You feel it fair for you to move towards the closest enemy, yet you feel it unfair (on yourself) to blob-move. Why? (I mean, honestly, its a rhetorical question. Of course I get why- cause "thematically" or "fluffwise" youre playing them as angry, not stupid) Yet both you and Blitz are playing by a level of RAI, and they're different and inconsistent? I play to enjoy myself. If I know I'm going to have a half hour argument with an opponent over the rage rules and then afterwards have to play him when both of us are in a bad mood then I'm not going to enjoy myself. By doing it this way I satisfy both my own sense of playing to the spirit of the rules and I'm playing within the letter (but not to the letter) of the rules. If someone wants to be a dick and argue even over that interpretation then I revert to RAW and tell him to prove me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Morollan, you sound like you play DC about the same way I play them. I won't bunch them up, but I also rarely do the conga line thing (not for any sense of fairness just seems fluffier in play). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 This was also brought up in the Official Rules forum a few months ago for those interested. clicky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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