Nash Trickster Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hello fellow Liberites, During a recent discussion with a friend, about the potential link between the Blood Ravens and the Thousand Sons, an interesting point was raised: we know from different sources, and particularly from the Horus Heresy novel A Thousand Sons, that the geneseed of that Legion showed a tendancy to random mutation even before the Legion turned to Chaos, which the Blood Ravens don't seem to share and thus could rule them out as potential successors... But this got me thinking about what idiosyncrasies and defaults are inherent to the other genestocks from Traitor Legions... What would they have passed on to their successors if there had been any? I thus started to look around (starting with Google) and found mentions of particularities of several genestocks, but I'm having trouble separating established fact, from those supported by some official info but nevertheless slightly speculative and from pure fan-speculation... And thus, I need your help in sorting this all out... (Quick message to the mods: I posted this in the Liber and not in the Chaos Ascendant forum because I thought that the info in this post, and the info which may result from the discussion, could be useful to Liberites who want to hint at a Traitor source for their DiY Chapter geneseed, or to devellop a DiY splinter of one of the Traitor Legions...) Here's what I found so far: Thousand Sons: major genetic instability from the start (source: A Thousand Sons). Black Legion: tends to generate Horus look-alikes (suggested by the HH books). Emperor's Children: considered as one of the most stable and pure (source: Index Astartes I, p.28).However, a site mentions a problem with their Catalepsean Node, potentially caused by the heavy use of drugs made by the Legion once they turned renegade, but I could not locate a source confirming this... (Since the drugs could have merely revealed a potential flaw which hadn't expressed itself thanks to the extra care taken by the Emperor Children's Apothecarion following the pre-reunification incident, I'd be interested in confirming this.). Night Lords: Stable, black eyes and pale skin, possible psychological effects (paranoia, autodestruction), Psyckers have visions (source: Index Astartes II, p.27)The visions could in fact be quite a rare phenomenon. (source: Soul Hunter, since this trait of the main character is exceptional enough that he's singled-out because of it.)On genetic stability, a site I found affirmed that Fabius Bile said the Night Lords' geneseed was "particularly resistant to mutation", but did not mention its source and I couldn't locate it (Help is thus more than welcome!).. Iron Warriors: According to an online source, would have a faulty Biscopea which creates deformities, particularly of the arms and legs, but no official source is mentionned... The only one I located which partially confirms this (Index Astartes I, p.37) suggests this particularity only appeared post-Heresy, and does not mention the Biscopea at all, hence suggesting it's an effect of Chaos rather than an inherent flaw of the geneseed. (Do you know any other source which would suggest this problem was also present, even at a lower level, pre-Heresy? Or a source which mentions that this is specifically due to a faulty Biscopea?) And that's all I could find... As far as the Death Guard, World Eaters, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion are concerened, I could not find anything which would suggest either a genetic fault pre-Heresy, or even one that would have remained at the potential state until these Legions turned to Chaos... Any suggestion (with a supporting source please) would be of help... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 In "The First Heretic", it is strongly suggested that the Word Bearers gene-seed makes them extremely devoted to their leadership - more so than any other Legion. I don't remember the exact page, but it should be noted that it was told to Argel Tal by daemon Ingethel, thus making the veracity of the information at least somewhat suspect . The same section has discussion of few other Legions' gene-seed, but I don't recall if any other Traitor Legions are mentioned (I recall the mention of Imperial Fist gene-seed deficiencies, but nothing else). It's been quite some time since I read the book, so I might have missed some details. The Death Guard gene-seed was at one point believed to generate marines that were physically more resistant to damage, although I do not know if it was ever officially confirmed. The World Eaters had displayed overly aggressive tendencies even prior to the unification with Angron, which may also hint at gene-seed influencing temperament of the successors. That said, I am not aware of any physical effects of gene-seed from those or any other Traitor Legions that you did not already cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2964907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 The spoiler part is the exact reason why I didn't include the WB devotion/obediance issue in my list... But, because I dismissed it from being factual enough to be worth of inclusion from memory, but didn't remember other genestocks being discussed, I did not bother re-reading that part of the book... So, I might have missed something. I'll check it up, it's worth a try anyway. About the Death Guard and World Eaters genestocks, since, like usual when researching that kind of things, I'm trying to separate "fluff fact", from "supported theory" and from "pure fan-speculation", I'd need sources for these... If you or anyone else can help me locate those sources, I'd be really grateful... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2964934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [*]Black Legion: tends to generate Horus look-alikes (suggested by the HH books). I wonder if the geneseed or the recruiting pool would be responsible for any abnormal amount of similar facial features. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2965057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 [*]Black Legion: tends to generate Horus look-alikes (suggested by the HH books). It's been a while since I read the first couple HH books but I got the impression from that passage to be that the look-a-likes were due to genetics above and beyond that of the geneseed implying there was a stronger genetic link between them and horus. Not implying that Horus fathered 500+ legionairs or something mind you (Wow... I think my brain just exploded from that thought)... but more implying that Horus himself was from the genetic stock of that particular familial lineage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2965210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 @Demus Ragnok & maverike_prime: Well, I'll admit I haven't re-read the first 3 HH books in full to check all mentions of that particularity of Horus's geneseed, but I don't remember that it was suggested at any point that the recruiting pool was responsible... Well, I guess I'll eventually have to go through all 3 books again to check it out... Unless someone comes up with the relevant quote first of course :) ====== I tried to find the mention about the Death Guard's geneseed generating more robust marines but, so far, I could only find the following: pale, with shadows under the eyes (Index Astartes III, p.37). ====== I checked the Word Bearers again, and the Index Astartes IV (p.17) suggests that the "obscurantism and obstinacy bordering on madness" they displayed was potentially due to a genetic flaw. This seems strangely similar to what was said about them in The First Heretic, only presented with a negative bias... Or is it the wording in TFH which is an euphemism? :lol: Regardless, this second piece of evidence makes me conclude I was wrong in dismissing it just based on the source of the info in TFH, so I'll re-add it in. ====== I still haven't located any source mentionning outright the World Eaters having an agressive behavior prior to the re-unification with their Primarch... The Index Astartes III, p.17, says that "many suspect that the geneseed of Angron was tainted from the start", but that's a bit "thin" as supporting evidence IMHO. ====== I'm still looking for the sources of the drug induced Catalepsean Node issue of the Emperor Children, the Fabius Bile quote about the Night Lords and the faulty Biscopea of the Iron Warriors to confirm these issues. Any help is welcome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2965438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverike_prime Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 @Demus Ragnok & maverike_prime:Well, I'll admit I haven't re-read the first 3 HH books in full to check all mentions of that particularity of Horus's geneseed, but I don't remember that it was suggested at any point that the recruiting pool was responsible... Well, I guess I'll eventually have to go through all 3 books again to check it out... Unless someone comes up with the relevant quote first of course ;) By no means should you take my interpretation as valid. I very often will read into things a lot more deeply then most people and in the process read information that isn't actually there. Plus it's been a couple years since I read the books in question and emperor only knows what else I could mixing the information with in my mind. I checked the Word Bearers again, and the Index Astartes IV (p.17) suggests that the "obscurantism and obstinacy bordering on madness" they displayed was potentially due to a genetic flaw. This seems strangely similar to what was said about them in The First Heretic, only presented with a negative bias... Or is it the wording in TFH which is an euphemism? ;)Regardless, this second piece of evidence makes me conclude I was wrong in dismissing it just based on the source of the info in TFH, so I'll re-add it in. I think its a more point of view of the respective writer then the quality in question. Like I've been on interviews and they ask me what my best quality is. Well, saying "I'm as stubborn as a old mule" doesn't make me sound as good as saying "I'm resolute in completing my tasks". Same thing with the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2965461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 By no means should you take my interpretation as valid. [...]it's been a couple years since I read the books in question and emperor only knows what else I could mixing the information with in my mind.Since Demus Ragnok also got that impression, there might be something suggesting more than the effects of the geneseed alone somewhere in the books and I'm the one not remembering it. Like I said, I'd like to be able to sort out what's "clearly said", from "suggested" and from "speculation based on thin evidence", and checking the source(s) is the only way this can be done. So, unless someone happens to know exactly where to look and can provide a quote (or merely a page) with evidence that there is more in play than just the geneseed in this issue, I'll eventually have to check it out myself to attain my goal. I think its a more point of view of the respective writer then the quality in question. Like I've been on interviews and they ask me what my best quality is. Well, saying "I'm as stubborn as a old mule" doesn't make me sound as good as saying "I'm resolute in completing my tasks". Same thing with the Word Bearers.Indeed... And that's what I meant... The IA uses quite strong language, which could be seen as the "Imperial propaganda" point of view, while TFH, because of who's involved in the discussion, uses a more "politically correct" phrasing, but both seem to be hinting to the same particularity of the Word Bearers' geneseed. And, while the suggestion in TFH alone could be dismissed as a potential lie, with the info in the IA to back it up, it becomes much more credible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2965514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (I double-post but, since 24h have passed, I hope it's not a problem...) Alright, I located my copy of WD#278, and thus could check the Heroes and Villains of the 41st Millenium: Fabius Bile article... It's in this article that the Catalepsean Node issue of the Emperor's Children, the Biscopea issue of the Iron Warriors, and resistance to mutation of the Night Lords geneseed are mentionned. However, I'm still looking for any source which could confirm/infirm: the display of agressive behavior pre-reunification among the World Eaters, and the superior resistance to injury displayed by the Death Guard. I really need help with those, even mere pointers to potential sources would help... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2966467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Hawk Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The impression I got from one of the stories in Age of Darkness was that the Death Guard are more obstinate and relentless than their brothers, but I'm not sure if that's to do with their geneseed or just conditioning Also, the World Eaters were already dangerously unstable, but their primarch tipped them over the brink to madness, and I think some of the legion resent him for this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2966479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Also, the World Eaters were already dangerously unstable, but their primarch tipped them over the brink to madness, and I think some of the legion resent him for thisCan you tell in which source this idea is presented? Or is that just "from the top of your head"? I really need to find the sources which support, or at least hint at, the existence of these flaws/idiosyncrasies in the different Traitor legions geneseed even before they turned to Chaos... As far as the agressivity among the World Eaters, pre-reunification with their Primarch, is concerned, the only "proof" of it I could locate so far is the sentence in their Index Astartes, which says that some believe the flaw was there from the start while others think the legion could have be redeemed if things had been different. It's not enough, IMHO, to confirm a potential flaw in the geneseed from the beginning, so finding another source, suggesting such agressivity before the Legion started to use the implants, is necessary. And, as far as the Death Guard is concerned, I'm looking for any source which would suggest that their greater resilience is a geneseed issue rather than a mere expression of their specific training... Edit: Also, if anyone happens to know if the high frequency of Horus look-alikes among the Luna Wolves is indeed mentionned as being due to other factors than the geneseed itself, and could point to the source, that would help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2966588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leofric Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 And, as far as the Death Guard is concerned, I'm looking for any source which would suggest that their greater resilience is a geneseed issue rather than a mere expression of their specific training... It may be an anecdotal reference but I'm sure that its the cursed founding article which details a number of the twenty-first founding chapters that states that the extraordinary resilience of the Sons of Antaeus bears a similarity to the toughness of the Death Guard, with the implication being that the SoA are created from that genestock. Although it could alsp be taken to mean they have similar resilience to that of plague marines in general - the material difference between a Death Guard Plague Marine and a Random-Chaos-Marine-Renegade Plague Marine not being much overall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2966813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thanks Leofric, I just re-read the Chapter approved: Cursed Founding and indeed the mention of the Death Guard is clearly meant to be read as suspicion that their geneseed was used. Which implies that above-average resilience, even for an Astartes, was inherent to that geneseed even pre-Heresy... For, even during the Cursed Founding, it'd be unbelievable to use Traitor geneseed collected on Chaos-tainted Marines, thus the zygotes must have come from the pre-Heresy geneseed stocked on Terra. However, this requires to read this sentence in the "meta" way, in other words make the somewhat-safe assumption the author didn't go name-dropping without a good reason, or it could indeed be read as simply meaning "they're as tough as Plague-Marines". Thus, while it points in the right direction, it's nevertheless not of much actual use in supporting the presence of that particularity of the DG geneseed... But that's a start! Another quote pointing in the same direction and we'll have enough evidence to include it as a possibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2967004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Re: World Eaters' aggressive tendencies. I distinctly recall the mentions of their overly aggressive style of warfare in "After De'Shea", in reference to their ways of combat prior to reunification with Angron. I am at work now and do not have my copy of "Tales of Heresy", so it is purely based on my recollections. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/245117-inherent-flawsidiosyncrasies-of-traitor-geneseed/#findComment-2977896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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