How do you like the DA with the "leaked" rules and FAQ?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Hi all , I'm back from a bit of a work induced vacation from the interwebz.

Whilst staying within the rules of the BnC, where can I find a copy of said leak?

 

Cheers

 

s

Try other forums (like dakkadakka). :lol:

[riddles]

When I read the reserve rules, all I thought was "DWA. first turn I can drop my entire Deathwing contingent if they are put into 1 group as a strikeforce". That's huge for me as the only reason I don't use DWA more regularly is it limits my bodies on the board.

 

The RW reserve group and the DW reserve group is also kinda groovy.

 

I think DW and RW got a nice boost out of this ruleset, to go along with 3++ shields and 2 shot cyclones. Greenwing stil relies on vehicles which look a little more shaky and our 4th ed points costs with still hurt them.

[Cactus]

When I read the reserve rules, all I thought was "DWA. first turn I can drop my entire Deathwing contingent if they are put into 1 group as a strikeforce". That's huge for me as the only reason I don't use DWA more regularly is it limits my bodies on the board.

 

I thought that too, but I think we were both wrong. Reserves still don't (Or won't? What's the correct tense here?) start to appear until turn 2 the second game cycle. Deathwing assault and everybody else's drop pods allow some reserves to arrive in the first game cycle but as I read it the "up to half, rounding up" restriction still applies.

 

What you can do is put the remainder of your reserved Deathwing squads into a single strike force so they all arrive at the time, whenever that may be.

 

I am digging the reserve rules though. Not just for my Dark Angels but also my tyranids. :cuss

[EPK]

When I read the reserve rules, all I thought was "DWA. first turn I can drop my entire Deathwing contingent if they are put into 1 group as a strikeforce". That's huge for me as the only reason I don't use DWA more regularly is it limits my bodies on the board.

 

I thought that too, but I think we were both wrong. Reserves still don't (Or won't? What's the correct tense here?) start to appear until turn 2 the second game cycle. Deathwing assault and everybody else's drop pods allow some reserves to arrive in the first game cycle but as I read it the "up to half, rounding up" restriction still applies.

 

What you can do is put the remainder of your reserved Deathwing squads into a single strike force so they all arrive at the time, whenever that may be.

 

I am digging the reserve rules though. Not just for my Dark Angels but also my tyranids. :)

 

Yea, that's a good point, I think the Codex rule would trump the rule book in this case, like you said. Though it is sort of one of those conflicting rules and will probably be cleared up with a new DA codex (or in a final 6th ed. rule book)...or not. Now even numbers of DW squads is not such a bummer anymore knowing that half will come first turn and the other half will come together. though not necessarily the second turn.

 

I sort of like the new deep strike mechanics though, like not having to worry about scatter unless you go within that critical range. The idea of strike forces is a nice one overall, as it was always puzzling why a few squads of bikers could not be counted on to stay together (when reserve rolls are not met). I could see it not applying to forces entering via teleportation through the warps as the we all know the warp is unstable but that would apply to our DW, so forget I said anything. Defensive fire is also interesting.

[pueriexdeus]

After reading through the pdf, I'm inclined to believe that it is a fraud.

 

My reasoning is the massive amount of grammatical and data errors coupled with the unnecessary complexity added to several rules such as fearless and evasion. These along with some rules that appear to have just been renamed (Drawback) for no apparent reason, and rules that are missing or have failed to have been brought into line with V5 further confirm the pdf's lack of validity.

 

I think the rule that confirms it as a fraud is the Coarse weapon rule for CC. There is no way GW would neuter their poster boy Marneus Calgar with such a restrictive rule.

 

Though I will say that there are some rules that may deserve some testing/inclusion, most of them can be found in our own Unforgiven Rules Development threads in one form or another.

[Droma]

I think the rule that confirms it as a fraud is the Coarse weapon rule for CC. There is no way GW would neuter their poster boy Marneus Calgar with such a restrictive rule.

 

It's an early play test copy, possibly one translated from German. I'd expect grammatical and formatting errors.

 

As to the nerfing of Calgar he still gets bonus attacks due to having two power fists. He just can't currently make directed attacks but I'm sure he'll gain a special rule once the next codex marine book gets released. So I'm not sure how he's "neutered". He's never been the best choice of SC in the marine dex anyway so that seems like an extremely arbitrary point to make.

 

I don't agree with the reasoning to claim something is fake based on the belief GW wouldn't nerf a space marine character.

 

+++ Mod Edit Orange text edited and corrected by me (CL) +++

[pueriexdeus]

I think the rule that confirms it as a fraud is the Coarse weapon rule for CC. There is no way GW would neuter their poster boy Marneus Calgar with such a restrictive rule.

 

It's an early play test copy, possibly one translated from German. I'd expect grammatical and formatting errors.

 

As to the nerfing of Calgar he still gets bonus attacks due to having two power fists. He just can't currently make directed attacks but I'm sure he'll gain a special rule once the next codex marine book gets released. So I'm not sure how he's "neutered". He's never been the best choice of SC in the marine dex anyway so that seems like an extremely arbitrary point to make.

 

I don't agree with the reasoning to claim something is fake based on the belief GW wouldn't nerf a space marine character.

 

+++ Mod Edit Orange text edited and corrected by me (CL) +++

By itself I would agree that GW will nurf SM characters, after all look at the current crop of DW characters. That in itself confirms in my mind the fraud, looking at the supposed Codex updates clearly demonstrates that their is no effort to bring any lacking IC's in line with their SM brethren. GW has already been put in the hurt locker because of this. I fail to see any reason that they would continue too fail to address their failures in this matter. Based on the supposed turn sequence alteration, neutering CC/IC's seems out of character.

 

But that is just my opinion.

[Diavlo]

Let's look at the bigger picture brothers.

 

With move/assault fire we can use our RavenWing different. I'm not claiming that it's going to be much better, because I haven't tried those rules yet.

Still I think it may be usefull for our bikers. Due to 3 things:

 

1. That changed phase

2. New bike rules which if I get them right. Allow our bikers to fire two weapons(because bikes are counted as not moved even if they did therefore they double they shoots) so we can shoot with bolters and plasmarifles using rapid fire.

3. Harder to get hit when moving on bike.

 

If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

 

For the Lion

 

PS I always used DW. Had only 1 game with RW.

[Mercy 0f Spades]

I am digging the reserve rules though. Not just for my Dark Angels but also my tyranids. ;)

 

Right!?

[pueriexdeus]

Let's look at the bigger picture brothers.

 

With move/assault fire we can use our RavenWing different. I'm not claiming that it's going to be much better, because I haven't tried those rules yet.

Still I think it may be usefull for our bikers. Due to 3 things:

 

1. That changed phase

2. New bike rules which if I get them right. Allow our bikers to fire two weapons(because bikes are counted as not moved even if they did therefore they double they shoots) so we can shoot with bolters and plasmarifles using rapid fire.

3. Harder to get hit when moving on bike.

 

If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

 

For the Lion

 

PS I always used DW. Had only 1 game with RW.

Yes you are right, with a move, assault, fire sequence we'll probably not be using the RW much at all. Being a suicide tar-pit type of unit, loosing the ability to fire prior to assault along with the loss of T5 in CC will seriously alter their use in CC. I would imagine the alternative will be forcing full squads usage and stand off engagements in support of DSing TDA.

[egon1six]

I still can not wrap my brain around the phase change. I know this is the 41st millennia but from a tactical standpoint I can not think of any battle past or distant future would assault before softening up their target first. It just doesnt make sense.

[CAM77]

To me it looks like Ravenwing bikers will be much better shooters, but (even) less deadly in CC. The ability of bikers to multi-target, combined with fast and relentless seems to mean that they will be able to rapid fire with both the twin-linked bolters and the plasma gun from 18". That is a pretty nice boost. Additionally they get jink making them a bit harder to hit with shooting as long as they stay mobile.

 

In close combat it looks to me like they will be a bit worse since they loose their T5. Power weapon on the Sergeant looks like a nice option now though since it will give him a much needed invulnerable save in CC, while also letting him make directed attacks against the most dangerous CC threat at his initiative. Also if I am reading the rules for relentless correctly, bikers will also be able to use their rapid fire weapons to grant them an extra attack in CC.

 

Looking over the changes to deep striking has me somewhat giddy, since it looks like we would be able to DWA 1/2 of our terminators and ASSAULT on the first turn!!! If this is how it ends up working then Deathwing gets a big boost in mobility since Deepstriking and especially DWA will be a very effective tactic. As far as the loadouts for Deathwing, I'll probably keep mine about the same, but the basic Sergeant loadout of powersword and storm bolter becomes quite a bit better. The I4 directed attacks will be nice for wiping out the biggest threats first, and the storm bolter will grant an extra CC attack on the charge. Lightning claws could also be amazing on the Sergeant now since they will give you the opportunity to get your directed attacks in as early as possible and of course, as always, re-roll to wound.

 

One unit that got hit hard across the board it would seem are Dreadnoughts (such a shame as I really love them). They now have a penalty to their evasion (easier to hit them), they don't get the -1 bonus that tanks get on the vehicle damage chart, and they get hit on their rear armor in close combat. Wow... hard to figure out a use for them now. Maybe an a shooty dread with a plasma cannon (which are now awesome) could do well, will have to see. In fact a ven dread supported by a techmarine (with plasma cannon servitors) might be a pretty powerful and potentially sturdy shooting platform, but again need to test it.

 

Overall I think that double-wing may have gotten quite a bit stronger (but so did a lot of stuff). Can't wait to see how this all plays out.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I still can not wrap my brain around the phase change. I know this is the 41st millennia but from a tactical standpoint I can not think of any battle past or distant future would assault before softening up their target first. It just doesnt make sense.

I really like many of the 'new' rules, heaps of improvement in most areas and a great refinement of 5th, the game will probably be much smoother now. But ^^THIS^^ is bang on, really weird order, how can a soldier get to chop an opponent before his mates bullets get there-not going to happen.

 

I'm playing a test game or two tonight so I'll have some real opinion tommorrow.

 

s

[CAM77]

Another thought -- Belial with lightning claws could become a better choice than TH/SS Belial, since he will no longer be insta-killed by as many things due to the way the new instant death rules work. This will also give him the max number of I5 directed attacks to deal with the largest CC threats to the squad before they can act.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I just finished the game, YUP, Belial will be better striking at initiative as he cant even be targetted in combat by hidden fists, especially if you take several TH/SS in the DW squad and he is apart of and put all the bad wounds on them. In my game he with a DWS faced a 6 man BA SBtermie sqd and a JP Captain, I had them sorted, unfortunately they were in a multi assault and I lost seven Tac marines to a charging BA Assault squad and so took 5 critical hits on my remaining three dudes and Belial- failed two inv out of three on the boys and so did Belial even with his SS(he was last wound and died too :) . Bad dice I know but going at inititive might have helped.

I was distracted and silly and targetted the Captain instead of getting a good combat res by slaying more of his termies, same prob there as 5th but really bad vs termies as we lose our great armour saves.

 

Vindies and Plasma cannon are awesome, only scattering if they miss.

Bikes with MGs are still awesome vs mech(unless you roll cats eyes on the to pen roll TWICE ;) )

 

Falling back without ATSKNF is a death sentence, my three man RAS beat a full tac squad after recieving the charge (I made ALL those saves B)B) )and if he didn't have ATSKNF he would be dead due to my MM/AB sitting behind the combat. The 12" bubble of destruction seems OP vs non loyalist SMs.

 

The bidding for first turn/stratagems is odd, why would you risk giving more than one SP, we bid 0-1-bail for minimal advantage.

 

I liked the rules in detail but not the major change in sequence- the charge before shooting rule. My opponent agrees and he plays DOA BA and loves to charge.

 

Caveat, we may have gotten some rules wrong as we were book surfing as we played.

 

s

 

EDIT: Statement in italics is wrong, I misread/missed the rule where there is no change from 5th in regard to ICs in CC

[Isiah]

Interesting observations Stobz. With regard the turn change sequence – did you alter fundamental tactics to take it into account ?? It seems the least popular change in 6th (rumoured 6th that is).

 

Cheers

I

[Interrogator Stobz]

I didn't really take one of our 'better' lists and played with the intention of seeing how the mechanics work for a variety of units more than tactics.

We didn't use reserves but I'm seeing DW/RW combos being awesome- assaulting half your TH/SS DWSqds after DWA seems nice with the second half coming in together either late game(4th cycle) or almost whenever you want(as I think you'd get to use the extra dice due to the DWA squads not using theirs), I'll give it a try next game if he doesn't reserve everything.

I haven't quite figured out all the rules yet, there is a bit of assumtion being made by us due to the first 20 pages or so of fundamentals being missing from the pdf.