How do the Minotaurs markings work?

[Captain Semper]

I have developed an interest on Minotaurs ever since Imperial Armour Vol 10 came out. I like them for a number of reasons (all of them subjective of course):

 

1. Background: These guys are the praetorians of the establishment. Everybody likes to play the maverick but these guys, they do the High Lords bidding. They are the muscle of the ultimate authority of the Imperium.

2. The two special characters are very interesting and help define the nature of the Chapter extremely well. And the Chapter Master, Asterion Moloc is probably the best named Chapter Master out there. This character inspired Greyall to draw a version of him which I find tremendously inspiring.

 

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/012/f/1/asterion_moloc___lord_of_the_minotaurs_by_greyall-d4m3c53.jpg

 

 

BTW you can find more of Greyall's excellent work here: link

 

 

3. The (new) paint scheme: I think that bronze + deep red is an excellent combo. I also like the understated Greek elements, not because I'm Greek mind you, but because they are fairly unique in the 40k context (say what you like - UMs are Romans :lol:). I also crave for the opportunity to do verdigris in quantities. :)

 

4. The recent love they get from FW with all the accessories, transfers and, what appears to be, Chaplain Eknomi -or whoever! (pic below) It is even rumored that the next IA will involve the Minotaurs... I'm only hoping it's true.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/FW/sneakpeek2.jpg

 

Now regarding markings, the main source in of course IA10. But I think there are a lot of unclear and somewhat conflicting stuff.

 

* Some pictures are with deep red shoulder pads whereas others are all bronze. Is there a significance there or is it purely decorative?

* There are chevrons with two lines or with three lines. What do they stand for? Company, squad, rank, honor markings?

* Greek letters

[Legatus]

* Some pictures are with deep red shoulder pads whereas others are all bronze. Is there a significance there or is it purely decorative?

I think that may be intended to denote the Veterans of the 1st Company, since all the Terminators have red shoulders and the power armoured Marines with red shoulders are all described as Veterans. There is one "Veteran Sergeant" without the red shoulders, but presumeably he is from one of the Battle or Reserve companies (perhaps from the 5th, see below).

 

 

* There are chevrons with two lines or with three lines. What do they stand for? Company, squad, rank, honor markings?

Nothig I could discern. We have a veteran with two and a veteran with three stripes, then one Tactical Marine with five (on kneecap instead of shoulder) and a veteran sergeant with three. My first thought would have been that it is meant to denote squad number, but you cannot really go up to ten stripes with that pattern (the "five" on the Tactical's kneecap pretty much fill the triangle completely), so that is probably not it. I'd be inclined to say thath it is merely stylish decoration.

 

 

* Greek letters – do they have a meaning or are they just for show? Is it for example Θ squad of Ω Company? Or not?

I assume it is just for show. Well, Omega is the 24th letter and Sigma is the 18th letter, so they would probably not be used to denote one of the ten companies. I assume they are small bits of personal decoration.

 

 

* Lastly the stripe on the helmet, does the white signify Veteran and the black Veteran Sergeant? Because there is a Sternguard veteran with a white stripe but an Assault Veteran with no stripe.

Since the one veteran has a white stripe and the Veteran Sergeant from (presumeably) a Battle Company has a black stripe it might denote the company. Thus that Veteran Sergeant without the red shoulder pads might come from the 5th Company (black). IIRC the helmet stripe is an officially recognised method of denoting company. Forgeworld seems to have kept it optional, though, as none of the other Marines has one. Perhaps because that 4th Company Marine would not have looked that spiffy with a green stripe.

 

 

1. Background: These guys are the praetorians of the establishment. Everybody likes to play the maverick but these guys, they do the High Lords bidding. They are the muscle of the ultimate authority of the Imperium.

Which is somewhat against the separation of the Imperial Institutions, however. Imagine the Senate of your country would be in direct command of the police forces of one of the cities, instead of these branches of teh government being kept separate. Well, to my shame I do not know how these things are in greece, but I believe in most parts of the western world these branches are kept separate.

 

What rubs me the wrong way about the Minotaurs is that they seem to not only have some kind of issue with the Ultramarines, but with Marneus Calgar in particular, which I cannot help but put down to author bias, specifically meant in comment on the recent Matt Ward Codex. It is a shame the author could not keep his personal bias out of the background he was charged with writing. It makes little sense "in-universe" and just seems off. Sort of like the "Hammers of Dorn" in the Rites of Battle book.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Legatus

[Vodunius]

1. Background: These guys are the praetorians of the establishment. Everybody likes to play the maverick but these guys, they do the High Lords bidding. They are the muscle of the ultimate authority of the Imperium.

Which is somewhat against the separation of the Imperial Institutions, however. Imagine the Senate of your country would be in direct command of the police forces of one of the cities, instead of these branches of teh government being kept separate. Well, to my shame I do not know how these things are in greece, but I believe in most parts of the western world these branches are kept separate.

 

 

 

Whuh? :P No. Just.. No. Space Marines are notoriously autonomous but they aren't 'rebels with a cause' they do answer -albeit periodically rather than day to day- to somebody and that somebody has always been the God-Emperor or the people who rule in his name: The High Lords of Terra. A better analogy would be a chief of police who has a small cadre of officers who actually listen to him when he says "don't take bribes, don't rob people, arrest criminals" when the bulk of the force just do whatever they want.

 

 

Some pictures are with deep red shoulder pads whereas others are all bronze.

 

The contrast is pretty low on the actual marines - its a lot clearer on the big pad example - but they aren't all bronze:

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/image...aurs_Livery.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/image...VII_Brother.jpg

[Jareddm]

I think the most telling event of the Minotaurs was when they were told to break up an honor war between two other chapters.

 

If another chapter had been asked, the response would've ranged from, "Blow it out your ass! I got better things to do!" to "But they fight for their honor, it must not be interrupted." The Minotaurs don't give a damn about anyone else except their orders directly from the High Lords. Yes, their methods may be heavy-handed, a fact that other chapters use to look down upon them with disdain.

 

 

What rubs me the wrong way about the Minotaurs is that they seem to not only have some kind of issue with the Ultramarines, but with Marneus Calgar in particular, which I cannot help but put down to author bias, specifically meant in comment on the recent Matt Ward Codex. It is a shame the author could not keep his personal bias out of the background he was charged with writing. It makes little sense "in-universe" and just seems off. Sort of like the "Hammers of Dorn" in the Rites of Battle book.

 

I have to disagree with this. The Minotaurs see the High Lords as the ultimate authority and the voice of the God-Emperor. Marneus Calgar can be seen as a rival of that power in that either directly or through Ultramarine successors, he controls vast swaths of space on the Eastern Fringe. The Minotaurs take offense to what they see as an attempt to userp the High Lords power out from under them. They feel any chapter that follows this so-called userper so blindly is no better than he is. I don't think it's meant as an attack on Ward but I can see how it can be taken that way.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Jareddm

[Captain Semper]

Some pictures are with deep red shoulder pads whereas others are all bronze.

 

The contrast is pretty low on the actual marines - its a lot clearer on the big pad example - but they aren't all bronze:

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/image...aurs_Livery.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40k/image...VII_Brother.jpg

 

Sorry dont get it... It still looks like all bronze to me. Care to elaborate? Are you refering to the contrast between the rim and the main body of the shoulder pad? I attribute this slight difference to the lighting effect and the attempt by the artist to achieve the sense of curvature.

[Legatus]

Vodonius:

Whuh? huh.gif No. Just.. No. Space Marines are notoriously autonomous but they aren't 'rebels with a cause' they do answer -albeit periodically rather than day to day- to somebody and that somebody has always been the God-Emperor or the people who rule in his name: The High Lords of Terra. A better analogy would be a chief of police who has a small cadre of officers who actually listen to him when he says "don't take bribes, don't rob people, arrest criminals" when the bulk of the force just do whatever they want.

This is how the Minotaurs section of the IA10 is started off:

 

"A Space Marine Chapter of brutal repute within the Imperium, the Minotaurs have long been the brunt of suspicion and acrimony by other Space Marine Chapters. Furthermore they are thought by some within the Ordo Hereticus to possess unknown ties to the High Lords of Terra that they find disquieting to say the least."

(IA10, p. 104)

 

I.e. something is not right about their apparent close ties to the High Lords.

 

I agree that Space Marines are not outside of Imperial law, as many do believe. They have to abide by the laws decreed by the High Lords, and the High Lords can station Chapters in certain areas and can grant them mandates such as fiefdom over a homeworld, or send them on penitent crusades. But they are not in command of a Chapter and have no direct control over them.

Much like how the police of a country would have to abide by the laws and sanctions established by the legislative branch. What the Minotaurs are instead is a private police force of the governing body, specifically used to do their personal bidding.

 

Of course, to anyone more familiar with the Imperial structure that would appear to make no sense, since the High Lords are not a homogenous body with a spewcific agenda, but instead is comprised out of the mighty representatives of the important Imperial institutions, each with his own agenda. Not to mention that a representative of the Inquisition has a permanent seat among the High Lords (nine seats are permanently granted to specific institutions, while the remaining three seats are given to any three of the remaining institutions). So why would "the High Lords" need a Chapter to carry out their will, and why would it be impossible for the Inquisition to know about it? I think there are two obvious solutions:

 

1. The Minotaurs are not controlled by "the High Lords" but by one specific member of the High Lords, or rather by the institution he represents. It makes no sense for "the High Lords" to need a personal Space Marine Chapter to order around, since they are not one homogenous body with an agenda, and it makes no sense that the Inquisition would not know about the Minotaurs ties to the High Lords since the Inquisition has a permanent seat among the High Lords. But it makes sense that one institution is using their seat among the High Lords to have a Space Marine Chapter believe they are being given directions from them.

 

2. The author of the Minotaurs background was not entirely aware of how the High Lords work and what kind of relation they have to Space Marines. This notion could be supported by the apparent biased parts about the Ultramarines.

 

 

---

 

Jareddm:

I have to disagree with this. The Minotaurs see the High Lords as the ultimate authority and the voice of the God-Emperor. Marneus Calgar can be seen as a rival of that power in that either directly or through Ultramarine successors, he controls vast swaths of space on the Eastern Fringe. The Minotaurs take offense to what they see as an attempt to userp the High Lords power out from under them.

If that was what the author thought, then that is only further proof that he was out of his depth writing about internal affairs of Space Marines and the Imperium. Marneus Calgar could only "be seen as a rival to the High Lords" by someone unaware that Roboute Guilliman had been one of the original twelve High Lords, that the original High Lords had established the military reorganisation of the Imperial armed forces (undertaken largely by Roboute Guilliman), that the Ultramarines/GUilliman had reigned over Ultramar before and after the Emperor had found it (thus entirely with his blessing), and that eight worlds out of a million are not really that significant. (Not to mention that all Chapters combined rule over something like a thousand worlds, so seven more hardly make a difference.)

Edited January 13, 2012 by Legatus

[Visitor13]

Or it's simply that the Minotaurs are the epitome of arrogance, hot-headedness and simply enjoy fighting against other loyalist Astartes, and so a conflict-in-the making against the most powerful chapter out there would make a lot of sense for them, in terms of storytelling potential.

 

Sometime in the (never-to-be-written) future of Wh40k we could have an epic brawl between Moloc and Calgar, and as the latter kicks Moloc's ass, he gets in trouble with at least some of the High Lords. Not that that will ever happen, but it's a fun point to speculate on.

 

And the Minotaurs would use every opportunity to deride *any* high-level Astartes, of this I'm sure. So it's not specifically an Ultramarines thing - they're just the most obvious target, that's all.

[Jareddm]

Marneus Calgar could only "be seen as a rival to the High Lords" by someone unaware that Roboute Guilliman had been one of the original twelve High Lords

 

This goes back to the classic argument of player knowledge vs character knowledge. That event occurred 10,000 years earlier. While all chapters know that Guiliman wrote the Codex Astartes, how many know that he served as a High Lord? Do the Ultramarines even know this? Events of the Horus Heresy are not as well known as we think they are, even among the astartes. And even if they did, so what? Guiliman isn't Calgar and their goals, ambitions, and outlooks could be completely different. Stating that an author is going out of their way to make an attack on another work, is just being inflammatory.

[Legatus]

Granted, there is little hard fact known about the ancient history of the Imperium, but seeing as Guilliman was instrumental in the origin of the Chapters of today and the creation of the Codex Astartes, I would assume that his role was known to Space Marine Chapters. The Ultramarines soruces do say that, while little can be said for certain about the early period of the Imperium, the traditions of the Chapter explain that Guilliman had been one of the first twelve High Lords.

 

But ancient history aside, no Chapter can look towards the Ultramarines and see a Chapter that is challenging or threatening the Imperial authorities. They are for all intents and purposes the epitome of the Imperial Space Marine Chapter, and what many other Chapters aspire to be. (Not be actual Ultramarines, but be a Chapter just like them. Just to be clear.)

[Malthe]

One word: Paranoia!

 

Is it logical to assume that the epitome of Imperial might, honour and glory are actually unsurpers to be?

Not really.

Is it plausible that some people (even Space Marines) with strong ties to the legit ruling body of the Imperium, are distrustful of that same chapter?

Yes!

 

 

@ Legatus

You are among the users of this forum whom I respect the most. Both because of your commitment, your polite and helpful way of comunicating and your sound, logical, well argumented reasoning.

But, if I dare say so, I believe you sometimes make the mistake of projecting those characteristics unto the fictive inhabitants of the Imperium.

The Imperieum, well the whole 40K universe, is not a logical place. There are very few rational things about the Imperium.

Likewise, it might be that the Minotaurs hold irrational believes, simply because they;

1) Don't have all the information neccessary to make an informed judgement, or

2) Simply aren't rationally examining the issue, but rather act upon subjective assesments.

I would go as far as to find this propable.

 

By the way; I find the devotion with which you champion the reputation of the Ultramarines admirable!

Keep it up, your chapter needs it in these times :P

 

Cheers!

 

p.s. My apologise to the OP that this reply has nothing to do with the original question of heraldy.

[Legatus]

Perhaps Captain Semper approves of a discussion about the Minotaur's background. I think. I hope. Though he might not approve of me being critical about the background he obviously enjoys.

 

While I cannot exclude that my point of view might be skewed at times, in this instance I on the contrary feel that it is indeed the fact that to me the Minotaur in that section seemed to behave based on out-universe knowlede that made it seem off. He is not merely insinuating a dubious relation between the Ultramarines and their successors in general, as it may have existed for the past millennia and may have been a bias by some of the other Chapters. No, he is specifically commenting on Marneus Calgar, and how the other Successors supposedly idolize him. Is that really something that other Chapters would have a bias about? Are the Ultramarines successors really going around proclaiming how awesome the current acting Chapter Master of the Ultramarines Chapter is in front of other Chapters? So much so that an obscure Chapter like the Minotaurs would not only witness it once, and maybe put it down to one particular Chapter, but multiple times, so that they derive that this is a common trait among the Ultramarine successors?

Somehow that does not really feel plausible and authentic to me, and I get the feeling that this is indeed more based on the statements made in the Codex Space Marines, about how Marneus Calgar is held in high esteem, and how some of the Ultramarine successors see the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines Chapter as some kind of distant liege.

 

That the Minotaurs pick the Ultramarines as a target, that might be plausible, since they are looking for worthy competition. But that they would pick up on a perceived reverence of the Ultramarines Successors specifically for the current acting Chapter Master seems more like "omniscient" knowledge.

[Captain Semper]

First of all let me say that I enjoy this discussion very much. Although it is apparent to me that the "markings issue" that prompted this topic is more or less addressed, (with a lot of question marks remaining) the background is by far my main point of attraction.

 

Now I think Legatus raised some valid points. The most important being that the High Lords are not a homogenous body. So how come they have a SM Chapter doing their bidding when their bidding is not one but many and possibly conflicting? And if it is a task that all the High Lords agree on, why don't they just order any SM Chapter, or the GKs, or the Guard, or the Officio Assasinorum or whatever? That's why these agencies exist in the first place. Fair point.

 

Now I think we should go the extra step here and see the issue from a different perspective. Suppose you want to introduce the theme of "State within State" in the 40k setting i.e. the situation where official agencies of the State take it upon themselves to "protect" said State by overstepping their given authority BUT doing so with the tolerance of the high echelons of the official State as it makes life easier than going by the book. Such practice is of course undermining the legitimacy of the State and ultimately of the high echelons themselves but it is something few could resist especially in a totalitarian regime such as the 40k Imperium. Now how do you achieve that?

 

First characteristic is that the organization that oversteps it's authority should be tolerated by the establishment. Given the multitudes of agencies in the Imperium and the overlapping areas of responsibility that many share, it would be difficult to survive for long. Unless the authority that covers for them is the highest there is! Hence the High Lords.

 

Secondly this organization should have a culture of self righteousness and strong belief that their patron is indeed infallible and deserves to rule away from petty constraints such as legitimacy. They have to see themselves as the shield and enforcer of their patrons will that is never questioned about its correctness.

 

Lastly they have to be defined against the "good guys". Ultramarines are in many respects the antithesis of the Imperium. They have build a small Utopia in a Dystopian Universe and they promote all that was good about the Emperor. They do not have dark secrets, they are noble and heroic and they are loyal. They are what the Codex (and the Primarchs that survived the Heresy) envisaged all SMs should be. In other words, if a 2k person was to be transported to the 40k Universe, Ultramar would be the place he would have hoped to be. So the story developers engineer an overt loathing from the Minotaurs side so to underline their dark purpose further. The Minotaurs are not an organization that should exist in a well run state. But the State is not well run. It could be possible to be better run though. Look at Ultramar! The Minotaurs can not bring themselves to accept that because then the very foundation of their belief system would shaken and destroyed. Hence the antipathy.

 

Now obviously if you micro-analyze that you'll find tons of inconsistencies. Like why the High Lords would act as one tight knit authority? I guess the Inquisition would be the biggest problem to rationalize but I cannot rule out an agreement of the Inquisition highest ranks with those of other Imperial agencies. Keeping the bulk of Inquisitors in the dark is not beyond either the Inquisition or the general setting of 40k. After all you cannot use GK for everything now can you?

 

So I say the authors did a good job with capturing the essence of the Minotaurs despite some inconsistencies on the margin. Let's face it, inconsistencies are never a consideration when they come across a good idea! :D

Edited January 16, 2012 by Captain Semper

[Yogi]

Legatus is pretty spot on with the markings. But I think you are pretty free to do what you want with the minos.. I would use the red should pads because they look better like that IMO.

 

1. Background: These guys are the praetorians of the establishment. Everybody likes to play the maverick but these guys, they do the High Lords bidding. They are the muscle of the ultimate authority of the Imperium.

Which is somewhat against the separation of the Imperial Institutions, however. Imagine the Senate of your country would be in direct command of the police forces of one of the cities, instead of these branches of teh government being kept separate. Well, to my shame I do not know how these things are in greece, but I believe in most parts of the western world these branches are kept separate.

 

What rubs me the wrong way about the Minotaurs is that they seem to not only have some kind of issue with the Ultramarines, but with Marneus Calgar in particular, which I cannot help but put down to author bias, specifically meant in comment on the recent Matt Ward Codex. It is a shame the author could not keep his personal bias out of the background he was charged with writing. It makes little sense "in-universe" and just seems off. Sort of like the "Hammers of Dorn" in the Rites of Battle book.

 

The reason to hate Calgar is pretty obvious to me. He oversteps his bounds, he is just a chapter master, but in actuality holds far more power then he is suppose to have. At his word countless chapters would rally to him. That isn't how it was suppose to work.

 

 

 

I don't get why the high lords could not have a chapter they use directly for their own political agendas. High lords are not homogeneous, sure. But that doesn't stop them using the mino's against other institutions for political purposes. Which in the Minos case seem to be other wayward chapters.

 

Separation of power is laughable this is the Imperium at its highest level. Power corrupts. The only people who have the resources to even threaten a high lord would be another high lord.

 

why don't they just order any SM Chapter, or the GKs, or the Guard, or the Officio Assasinorum or whatever?

 

Space marines are difficult to order around. GKs have a specific purpose. Guard in universe are pretty worthless against a chapter. Officio Assassinorium is covert. Minotaurs are Overt. They send a brutal message. It tells other chapters to know their place. That is there purpose.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Yogi

[Captain Semper]

why don't they just order any SM Chapter, or the GKs, or the Guard, or the Officio Assasinorum or whatever?

 

Space marines are difficult to order around. GKs have a specific purpose. Guard in universe are pretty worthless against a chapter. Officio Assassinorium is covert. Minotaurs are Overt. They send a brutal message. It tells other chapters to know their place. That is there purpose.

 

Given that my question was rhetorical, I tend to fully agree with your comment. The SM Chapters are usually "requested" to assist on the various missions and it is not unheard of for such requests to be declined! So the Minotaurs are a sure thing and they'll do anything that is asked from them - even attack fellow Marines. So yeah, once we get passed the hurdle that the High Lords have to find common ground to create such a Chapter in the first place, then the rest make sense...

[Legatus]

I think the issue with the Inquisitorial representative is a back breaker for this piece of fluff. Sure, the current acting High Lord of the Inquisition could strike a deal with the other High Lords to not divulge any information to other Inquisitors. But if, as described in the IA10 description of the Minotaurs, the Inquisition (or more specifically the Ordo Hereticus) is weary of the unknown ties of the Chapter to the High Lords, then they would be aware that the acting Inquisitorial representative among the High Lords is playing some kind of shady game and is hiding something from them. Not to mention that the Badab War had been about a century ago, and the incident where the Minotaurs almost destroyed two Chapters was about a thousand years ago (IA10 page 107 puts the incident at about 053-077.M41), so there would have been several new Inquisitorial Representatives since the first suspicions had been raised.

 

So, since at least early M41 the Ordo Hereticus is suspicious about the ties between the Minotaurs and the High Lords. At least a dozen, probably more, Inquisitorial High Lords will have come and gone since then. And still a thousand years later the Ordo Hereticus is still none the wiser about the exact connection between the High Lords and the Minotaurs.

[Captain Semper]

Well one could raise the question of how is the Inquisitorial representative selected? What is the electorate and who are eligible to fill the position. I can not exclude the possibility that the highest levels of the Inquisition work a bit as a closed Inner Circle where the select few are privy to the deep secrets of their organization (and let's face it, the Minotaurs are not such a deep secret as Inquisitorial deep secrets go) and it is one of them that ultimately makes it to become a High Lord. So the Inner Circle would commit the Inquisition (not just the odd High Lord) and consiously keep the rest of the Inquisitors in the dark and indeed block their investigations (covertly or overtly) if they fear they get too close to the truth (of any secret for that matter).

 

So although the main body of the Inquisition is suspicious, it is also unable to come to a definate conclusion. How is that possible? Well it is explained if an Inquisitor of higher authority blocks the investigation somehow... And frankly, blocking an investigation about the Minotaurs should be something the Inner Circle of the Inquisition (assuming such a body exists) would do for breakfast (or even before :().

 

Anyway, I agree this is the main point that requires some rationalization to make it work. It's probably because I'm a DA fanatic that I see Inner Circles all around me but it does make sense (kind of).

[Jareddm]

The Inquisition is just as fragmented if not moreso than any other Imperial organization. The Ordo Hereticus does not think as a whole, nor does any other Ordo. When they refer to the Ordo Hereticus, they mean a handful of Ordo Hereticus inquisitors, which in terms of political power and nothing next to any of the High Lords, much less the Inquisitorial representative. Dozens of inquisitor's entire investigations into what they believe to be heretical act might end up being another, more senior inquisitor's sting operation. It's happened several times in previous lore.

[alfred_the_great]

The Dark Heresy rulebook (pg 267) states the Inq High Lord of Terra is to "observe the workings of the Imperium and inform the High Lords of dire threats uncovered by the Inquisition".

 

Furthermore, (s)he "is not the leader of the Inquisition, because no man could ever claim leadership over the wilful and scattered ranks of its Inquisitors".

 

I would suggest the Minotaurs could quite well "work" for the High Lords with the Inquisition (as a body) knowing very little, or nothing, about it.

[Legatus]

But with new Inquisitors being appointed as member of the High Lords for the past thousand years, and the Minotaur connection being in suspicion for at least that long, why didn't the Ordo Hereticus ever managed to inquire any of the Inquisitors being appointed about it?

[Olis]

Maybe they did.

[ElDuchen]

Just to put my two cents in regarding the chevrons/inverted V markings on the Minotaurs...my personal thought is that perhaps they refer to rank among the Minotaurs to a point:

All Terminators (the elite) have a single chevron on them.

Veteran Sergeants have two chevrons (I don't have the book here at work, but I believe the Sternguard Vet had this)

"Regular" Veterans have three chevrons

Tactical Marines have five

 

I don't have any idea what four chevrons would signify, but that is the brainwave I had for chevrons

[Captain Semper]

The Inquisition is just as fragmented if not moreso than any other Imperial organization. The Ordo Hereticus does not think as a whole, nor does any other Ordo. When they refer to the Ordo Hereticus, they mean a handful of Ordo Hereticus inquisitors, which in terms of political power and nothing next to any of the High Lords, much less the Inquisitorial representative. Dozens of inquisitor's entire investigations into what they believe to be heretical act might end up being another, more senior inquisitor's sting operation. It's happened several times in previous lore.

 

That is very correct in my view. The Inquisition, much like other Imperial agencies, has such a convoluted internal structure that it is really difficult to dicern a clear chain of command. This would make them anarchic and unfocused (and to a certain degree they are). That's why I tend to beleive that somewhere there must be an "Inner Circle". Some Lord Inquisitors that are the custodians of the legitimacy of the institution. A body that ultimately have control on blocking (overtly or covertly) any investigation by any "lesser" Inquisitors. I know this is not explicit in the lore (or even hinted) but in my mind it makes sense. Unless of course I'm missing something that contradicts my theory (which is entirely possible as I do not see myself as an expert on Inquisition lore). This Inner Circle however would produce all the High Lords and - although they are not "leaders" of the Inquisition as such they have such seniority within the institution that would not be personally subject to any lesser Inquisitor's scrutiny. Even if this were to be the case the Inner Circle would activate a safety net around the former High Lord and protect him. Feel free to shoot this theory down but it 1) explains a lot of loose ends (like giving a decision making body for the Inquisition - thus defining its stature within the Imperium) and 2) it does not contradict the nature of the Inquisition in my view...

 

The Dark Heresy rulebook (pg 267) states the Inq High Lord of Terra is to "observe the workings of the Imperium and inform the High Lords of dire threats uncovered by the Inquisition".

 

Furthermore, (s)he "is not the leader of the Inquisition, because no man could ever claim leadership over the wilful and scattered ranks of its Inquisitors".

 

I would suggest the Minotaurs could quite well "work" for the High Lords with the Inquisition (as a body) knowing very little, or nothing, about it.

 

This is also an interesting theory. Since no ruling body exists in the Inquisition lore this is a disadvantage that the Inquisition has vs. other Imperial institutions that have a more clear chain of command. And they pay for it by not being "in the know" of what is a common secret among the other High Lords (at least the permanent ones). However this theory assumes that the Inquisition has not been able to find out anyway in like 1,000 years of active investigation... This is kind of weak point.

 

But with new Inquisitors being appointed as member of the High Lords for the past thousand years, and the Minotaur connection being in suspicion for at least that long, why didn't the Ordo Hereticus ever managed to inquire any of the Inquisitors being appointed about it?

 

Yes... see my comment above. This is indeed a weak point. But a plausible answer would be that either the ex-High Lord is beyond the reach of any Inquisitor as an invisible veil protects him (the Inner Circle theory) or he is ignorant on the subject anyway as the Alfterd the Great suggested above.

 

Just to put my two cents in regarding the chevrons/inverted V markings on the Minotaurs...my personal thought is that perhaps they refer to rank among the Minotaurs to a point:

All Terminators (the elite) have a single chevron on them.

Veteran Sergeants have two chevrons (I don't have the book here at work, but I believe the Sternguard Vet had this)

"Regular" Veterans have three chevrons

Tactical Marines have five

 

I don't have any idea what four chevrons would signify, but that is the brainwave I had for chevrons

 

Interesting theory - unfortunately I had no time to cross-check... I'll have a look at it tonight. Thanks for that!

Edited January 18, 2012 by Captain Semper

[alfred_the_great]

I think there is plenty enough lore available for Inq to quietly pooh-pooh the "inner circle" idea. Sorry.

 

There are 2 (maybe 3) ways of exerting power within =][=:

 

1. Climb up the greasy pole of your Ordo. The Eisenhorn series describes how there are Lord Inq for each of the 3 major Ordos within a Sector, overseen by a Lord High Inq drawn from within the ranks of the Lord Inq.

2. Climb the greasy pole of power within your conclave. The leader of a major conclave will wield enough power (at least within the area the conclave is active) to probably over-rule other Inq who stray onto their patch.

[3. Become a powerful independent Inq, like Eisenhorn or Ravenor (or Voke or Czevak). Their power comes from operational success, and everyone likes to follow a winner. Kill enough things publicly and you become powerful, or know enough (Czevak) and people will look to you.]

 

I see the way the Inq working as pure power politics. Brutal, and people may opt out of the game, but it works. A brand-new Inq would have to be pretty ballsy to ignore a suggestion from a Inq High Lord, simply due to the amount of influence the latter has, but if you don't care about having no friends you can get away with it.

[Jareddm]

While not necessarily an Inner Circle, Dark Heresy has given hints that there is a minor ordo designed with the specific task of policing the structure of the Inquisition. While it's nothing substantial, it does mean that someone might be looking over inquisitorial records. Most likely, their jurisdiction is fairly minimal and wouldn't be able to touch the majority of Lord Inquisitors.

[Bannus]

What does this have to do with Minotaur markings?