Marines found wanting

[Jaigo]

Hello folks, I wanted to ask some advice on how to optimize the tactical squads.

 

In general they don't seem to be getting the job done as I hoped they would.

I am not a fan of scouts, so for troops. I always use 2 squads of tactical marines. (would be 3 in I played over 1500 pts )

 

The squads usualy have flamers. But at times I swap it for one plasma gun and one melta depending on the expected enemy.

I haven't had good experience with the heavy wapon option. But perhaps it is the missing link. It seems I hardly ever fire the gun due to movement.

Also I feel I can do way more with the Sgt.

 

I do have 2 rhino's I can use. So I tend to get the marines where needed, and then use flamers and bolters.

 

Bit of a prelude there, but the main question is: How do I maximize the output of an tactical squad.

[greatcrusade08]

hi Jaigo

 

firstly id suggest a combi-weapon to match the squads special.

dont waste points on Pw/PF unless you aim to get close (i.e melta or flamer)

 

i think the best load-out for a shooty support tac squad is plasmagun, lascannon and maybe a combi-plasma on the sergeant, all in a rhino

 

of course the best advice i could give is to change your mind about using scouts :tu:

[KhorneHunter57x]

Starting with the Sergeant, I tend to give him a combi-weapon that is identical to the squad's special weapon (so if they have a meltagun, he has a combi-melta, etc...). I prefer the Plasma/Combi-Plasma loadout for this as it allows you one turn where you can get 4 Plasma shots, even out of the top of a Rhino. Some people (myself included) prefer having a Power Fist as it increases their versatility, but it does put quite a bit of points into the squad for something that is not their primary role. To PF or not comes down to personal choice, metagame, and how often you find your Tacticals in assault, but I would say that the Combi- is mandatory.

 

For the Special Weapon, I avoid the Flamer, as the rest of the squad handles the same targets that the Flamer does (large numbers of light/medium infantry), it requires you to get dangerously close, and the other options are pretty cheap. However, if your local meta necessitates extra anti-horde, then stick with it. Otherwise, I would go with a Meltagun or Plasma gun, matched with the Sergeant's Combi-Weapon.

 

And, finally, the Heavy. If you intend to use the Tactical Squad as a mobile unit, I think there are two options that are ideal. The first of these is the Multi-melta, as if you are mobile you shouldn't have to worry about the short threat range, and it is as cheap as you can get (so no loss if you never fire it; remember that the wielder still has a Bolt Pistol). The second is the Plasma Cannon. It offers some anti-horde, some anti-vehicle, and excellent anti-heavy infantry all in one quite cheap package.

 

Tactical Squad Heavies are cheap, so don't worry if you never fire them (I think they are more for last resort/target of opportunity type situations. You aren't planning on them to make an impact, but if you happen to get LOS to a cluster of Chaos Terminators with a Plasma Cannon or a tank's side armor with the Multi-Melta, they allow you to capitalise on opportunities.)

[Captain Idaho]

I'd love to keep this here, but I believe we won't be discussing much about Ultramarines specific items here, so I'm bouncing it to Tactica as that's the appropriate forum.

 

In response, I would say choose your Tactical squads to support your army. If you have a bunch of heavy weapons in the rest of your list, amplify this with additional heavy weapons i.e. you have a Predator with lascannons, a couple Typhoons and a couple Dreads with heavy weapons, so add a couple Tacticals with Lascannons to boost your output.

 

Don't try and use Tactical Marines as an assault force. Even with hidden power weapons/fists you will get eaten alive by dedicated assault specialists. Instead, as above use them to support your real attack force with increased numbers and the capacity to lay down close ranged supporting fire. These units benefit from those specials echoing the combi-weapon of choice.

 

I find I end up taking 2 Tacticals with Lascannons/Plasma Cannon sometimes as support to my heavy weapons, but often take a 3rd to boost numbers in my attack from my Honour Guard.

 

Anyway the guys here will/have given you indepth information, but just remember my small response - use them to support your army regardless of the preconceived assumption the rest of the army supports the Tactical Marines! The fluff is reversed in this instant.

[TheChairman]

First off, two Tac Squads at 1500 is more than enough. If I have a lot of armour saturation I tend to use two 5-men squads in Razorbacks.

 

For the last two years I played a pretty standard mech list with two 10-men Tac. Squads. I ran both with a MM, a Flamer and a Combi-Flamer in a Rhino.

The "how to" is very straight forward. Both Rhinos drive forward together first turn and pop smoke. After that, you have two MMs who dare any vehicle get close. If you encounter infantry units nearby, you drive both squads up (using the rhinos to block LOS to the rest of the enemies army) and unleash 4 flamers and 16 Bolter-rounds on their "behinds".

 

This is just a standard tactic to control the middle of the board. Starting turn 4 or 5 you obviously try to contest/ grab/ steal objectives.

 

 

 

I hope that this is some kind of help to you.

[DarkGuard]

I find the key to using Tactical squads is not to centre your battle plan around them, or to rely on them to "carry the day" as it were. They are support choices, a unit with a variety of wargear options and the ability to be versatile that score. What your army lacks, you gear them towards. For example, my two Tactical squads are loaded up as: combi-plasma, plasma gun, multi-melta; and combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon. Both are in Rhinos. Both can function as 10 man squads, though while the former never splits, the latter does when I need the extra scoring unit. Both of these fill in areas my army lack in other units, namely the ability to deal with specialist units and the ability to deal with high AV. That's not to say I don't have other units that can do these, but these squads add redundancy, while still being strong against infantry thanks to massed boltguns. In battle they support my Honour squad and firebase, which is more anti-infantry and anti-light AV based. They aren't the all killy unit, but a support unit, and that's how they function best.

 

Or you can go the other route, and try and make them as killy as possible. In this instance I'd dial down the melta as other units should be carrying it for support, while giving them either flamers to complement their boltguns or plasma guns to give them added punch against MEQ and MCs while also staying anti-infantry.

 

Tactical squads are a good unit if used correctly and used with the correct expectations. They may not be Grey Hunters, but stop comparing them. Take Tactical Marines on their own merits and the merits of their placement in the Codex, make them work, rather than looking at other Codices. If you stick with it and get it to work, then you'll feel good about the list and the fact you made them work.

[Jaigo]

Thank you for moving the thread Captain Idaho.

The army being Ultramarines doesn´t make the post Ultramarines specific! Hadn´t thought it through.

 

Also thanks for your dime on the topic. I indeed did view them as the backbone. Lets see how that reverse of fluff works out.

 

And of course all others, thank you for sharing your views. I like the idea to match the squad load out.

 

Seems to let them do the job, I have to give them the tools to do it..... makes sense in a way. But made me realise I´ve been underplaying the squad big time!

 

Pretty shocking however, I did notice I have very few combi weapons in my bit box. Rare bits.... but I´ve got enough to give it a hell of a go.

 

My next battle will be against traitor marines. So I expect lots of vehicles and power armor. Thus I will start with two squads, one with a Melta theme and the other Plasma.

 

For me, as a fairly new player. It is great learning how to better use my army like this. I really enjoy that aspect of tweaking and trying out. For past few battles I am using vehicles myself, adds to the fun. But I have to remember to use that smoke!

 

 

 

@Darkguard.

I might have missed something here. I don't see anyone compare them to Grey Hunters, and I do not mention looking at other codices. I am rather fond of the Space marine one.

I did enjoy your Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis. I almost fnished painting mine and am eager to test them in battle.

[Laughingdagger]

He brought up grey hunters because as a unit they're the most tactically flexible/efficient troops choice in power armor and many people often compare them.

[spartan249]

Well... let's be realistic about Tactical Squads. Their main strength is their toughness and ability to survive enemy fire decently well. This translates into them holding objectives, which they are not totally useless at given their cheap heavy weapon. Expecting a mainstay troop unit to act like Sternguard or Dire Avengers is a bit of an unreasonable expectation to place on them.

 

The way I equip my tac squads is this: I consider what problems my tac squads may face in defense of territory, and I equip to deal with basically any threat that may approach.

[DarkGuard]

He brought up grey hunters because as a unit they're the most tactically flexible/efficient troops choice in power armor and many people often compare them.

 

Exactly correct. To the OP I didn't mean and wasn't accusing anyone of making that comparison, but rather as Laughingdagger says they are considered one of the most efficient troops choices and are therefore a direct competitor with the Tactical squad.

 

Glad you liked the Sternguard post by the way, I've been wanting to do another post on a different unit but having trouble picking and uni deadlines must be observed as well <_< .

[Jaigo]

Trouble picking? Hope you won' t mind an suggestion then...

 

If deadlines permit. How about the vanguard vetern squad.

Apart from it being odd imo to have to give them jetpacks instead of those being default, I feel they got lots of potential.

It will be my next project to model and paint.

[ak-73]

What are Tacticals good for?

You have WS 4 T4 Sv3+ Scoring troops. Thus they are hard to remove for a number of enemy units. Therefore their main purpose is to deny enemy objectives (and if you can take and hold one, it's a nice bonus).

 

So their main purpose isn't killing but defensively. But what can they kill well?

Obviously they can kill infantry with a Sv 5+ pretty well. Drive-by, jump out, rapid fire to death. They can also threaten vehicles with MM (or transports from the home objective with ML). Melta Hunter combat squads otoh can put 1 or 2 wounds on MCs, then die to grant the others another round of shooting.

 

Marines normally don't belong into combat unless we're dealing with units that fail totally at combat. A1 means they don't have a huge damage potential and rather rely on sweeping the enemy many times. It is better with Kantor around or if you can throw 20 Tacticals at one enemy unit but really that's not the strategy. Stay in your Rhinos until you have a worthwhile target.

 

Alex

[Pigchampion]

I think Tactical squads are a great troop choice. My current list uses 40, and I've played 50 a couple of times. Here's the basic concept (credits to Stelek/yesthetruthhurts.com for the basic concept):

 

Tactical squad (10), meltagun, combi-melta, multimelta, Rhino

Tactical squad (10), meltagun, combi-melta, multimelta, Rhino

Tactical squad (10), meltagun, combi-melta, Plasmacannon, Rhino

Tactical squad (10), meltagun, combi-melta, Plasmacannon, Rhino

 

The idea is to combat squad everything so that the heavy weapons stand and shoot and the meltaguns move forward. This way you double the amount of your scoring units, make your heavy weapons more resilient and firing all game and assault weapons moving forward with aggression. The Rhinos don't ever have stop to fire the heavy weapon, but instead have the chance to quickly move to the midfield. You can then add the appropriate support around this core. I use fast melta with bikes, anti-transport with Dreadnoughts, ranged anti-infantry with predators and a basic Librarian. There surely are a lot of other combinations.

 

This is my favorite C:SM list-type at the moment, simply because it's so strong, mobile and flexible. No more "C:SM is defensive gunline army" -rubbish.

[Bannus]

What are Tacticals good for?

You have WS 4 T4 Sv3+ Scoring troops. Thus they are hard to remove for a number of enemy units. Therefore their main purpose is to deny enemy objectives (and if you can take and hold one, it's a nice bonus).

But that can be said of ANY troops choice in any power-armored army short of SoB. When compared to the Troop choices of other armies like Space Wolves, Blood Angels....even Chaos, the Tactical Squad is an underperformer.

[ak-73]

I wouldn't say that. Combat Tactics can leave your Grey Hunters or BA Jumpers terribly exposed. And your Grey Hunters don't bring a MM with them. Are they probably still better point-for-point? Maybe but that is an isolated view, you got to see those Tacticals advantages within the overall army design and that is shooty - long-range, high S firepower.

 

And even so this goes for other MEQ units, it still holds true for Tacticals. You just need lots of shooting to prevail against those other troop choices. If you still in your Rhino, while the GH or BA jumpers are standing somewhere nearby, they aren't that scary anymore. Get the GH out of their transports early and keep the BA jumpers from getting you out of yours before you are ready.

 

Alex

[AlexCrute]

Tactical squads can have razorbacks. I am finding this is an equation-changer. There are very few advantages tactical marines can bring over say chaos marines, and the razorback is the biggest of them.

 

As an aside, how do grey hunters differ from chaos space marines? Not much I guess?

[ak-73]

Very, very much:

 

http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/09/compariso...haos-space.html

 

Part of the reason why a number of CSM players run their army as counts-as Space Wolves (or Blood Angels).

 

 

Alex

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Tactical squads can have razorbacks. I am finding this is an equation-changer. There are very few advantages tactical marines can bring over say chaos marines, and the razorback is the biggest of them.

 

As an aside, how do grey hunters differ from chaos space marines? Not much I guess?

 

Yes, taking 'Backs certainly can help level the playing field for regular Marines, but they're cancelled out by the drawbacks:

 

1.) If taking a full squad, they lose either A.) mobility or B.) staying power.

-A.) Mobility. The whole squad cannot fit in the vehicle, so it drives around empty with ten Marines now footslogging. This isn't such a bad thing if they're static -- say, holding an objective -- but the point stands.

-B.) Staying Power. Sure, you can combat squad them. Take the sergeant and the special weapon with the 'Back and leave the heavy behind to shoot from a static position. But now the durability that you get from having 10 T4 models with 3+ saves is cut in half.

 

2.) If taking a 5-6 man squad, you are still suffering from the Staying Power drawback, with the added issue that the only model that can pick up extra equipment is your sergeant -- and its much easier to stop a vehicle from firing its main gun than it is to get a Marine not to fire his special/heavy weapon.

 

3.) The Rhino can self-repair Immobilized results; Razorbacks cannot.

 

So its really a matter of opinion and personal preference whether the Rhino or Razorback makes a better transport for Tactical Marines.

[Warp Angel]

I've got a very specific philosophy on how to assemble and play an army, particularly around tactical squads.

 

Tactical squads do two things well, and a lot of things not very well.

 

The first thing that they do well is "Defend". If you camp a well equipped AND supported tactical squad on an objective, they're really hard to kick off. My standard "defender" tactical squad is equipped to be able to hold off a variety of threats long enough for support to arrive and to endure better by being able to address typical threats to kicking them off an objective. A plasma cannon and a flamer allow them to whittle down hordes and threaten "small" elite forces with good armor saves. I don't plan on them surviving a 10 strong paladin squad assault, but knocking out a termie or two on the way in doesn't hurt and orks just burn. :ph34r: I keep a fist on the sergeant for cracking open enemy transports and having some chance of dealing with monstrous creatures that happen to get close. They've got integral support in the form of a razorback that provides for versatility if I decide to combat squad and a light firebase and screening to help increase durability in their role as "defenders".

 

The second thing that they do well is "Hunt". A tactical squad with a focused loadout can go after specific parts of an enemy force and, unless addressed directly and overwhelmingly, do damage out of proportion to their "on paper" capability. A "hunter" squad in a rhino outfitted with melta can cross enough of the table to be a threat to enemy firebases like guard artillery and rifleman dreads, tarpit enemy units in hand to hand, and camp on an enemy objective forcing them to change their plans to deal with them. A plasma outfitted unit is a decent harassing unit for terminator and elite heavy armies and can even ruin the day of some of the nastier monstrous gribblies on the table. I've got a preference for the melta equipped (again with a power fist) but have been known to run other configurations.

 

Neither role can function without two things: Support from deadlier units. A willingness to sacrifice them to gain overall victory.

 

Philosophically, tactical marines should be awesome, but the game mechanics make them the pawns of the 40k chess game instead of the knights they should be.

 

For a more detailed philosophy, click the "Tactical Squads" link in my sig.

[ak-73]

You don't really lose staying power, you just make it harder for the enemy to obliterate you because of MSU-style gaming. Oh, individually you do lose staying power but the army as a whole gains. Why? If you have 30+ Tacticals in combat squads, you don't care if the enemy manages to obliterate a combat squad or two (don't get multi-assaulted). The enemy hopefully will stand exposed and get shot down in revenge.

 

More importantly you gain offensive power: LasPlas RBs + the ability of the 2 combat squads to attack different targets.

 

Alex

[Brother Captain Josef]

I think Tactical Squads are an excellent troop unit.

 

ATSKNF is golden, as is (rather more controversially) Combat Tactics and Combat Squads.

 

Special mention to the flamer /combi-flamer option which guts light infantry for a grand total of what 10points? Yes I'll have that please. Special mention to the melta/combi-melta combo which means your opponent can't afford to ignore them if he likes his tanks/T4 special characters for how much did you say? 15points? Special mention to the plasma/ combi-plasma combo for anything in between for 20points. AND I still get a missile launcher/ multimelta or hbolter for nothing? Or even a plamsa cannon or lascannon for a pittance?

 

I can wrap them up in a cheap AV11 vehicle and because of this heavy weapon I have the tactical option to sit at the back and wait for my enemy to come to me all the while shooting at them?

 

Grey Hunters may get two specials but in order to be effective they have to move on their enemy and that might not be a good idea depending on what it is or if they need to be sitting on an objective. Also they're Ld8 which can hit their staying power and in order to improve on that they need an expensive character upgrade.

 

Chaos Marines pay through the nose for something which is basically mediocre and expensive to upgrade. The may have Ld 9 but no ATSKNF which means when they run they 'ain't coming back and can force you to eke out a draw by contesting your opponent's objectives. Again requiring a character upgrade to improve on this Ld. Okay, fair enough Nurgle Marines are pretty good but how many points?

 

Both choices suffer in not being able to field a cheap heavy to affect the wider battle without having to surrender an objective if the enemy is out of 24" range. Chaos get combis on their rhinos which is nice but loyalist get hunter killers which are tactically more flexible. The advantages of Razor backs have already been mentioned.

 

All in all Tactical Marines are well... Tactical. Their initial loadout of equipment may affect how you play them in relation to the rest of your army but there is an inherent flexibility to them in whatever mission you play. More than any other power armoured troop choice they have the ability to have a go at something you might not have envisioned them needing to when you wrote the army list. In killpoint games the can sit in their AV11 bunkers in cover and fire across the board, jumping out and hosing down anything that gets too close. They are a great bully unit for finishing off enemy units allowing your heavy hitters to move on and hit something else heavily. In objective games they can move up, claim objectives and become a damn nuisance to shift with Ld9 and ATSKNF or you can divide them into two distinct and effective squads keeping your heavies back to look after your come objectives and the Serge and special to go out prospecting.

[AlexCrute]

Has anyone play-tested tactical squads in landraiders?

[Squirrelloid]

Has anyone play-tested tactical squads in landraiders?

 

Why would you? Being an assault vehicle does *nothing* for tactical marines. Might as well stick them in a rhino and save the LR for troops that actually benefit.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Has anyone play-tested tactical squads in landraiders?

 

Why would you? Being an assault vehicle does *nothing* for tactical marines. Might as well stick them in a rhino and save the LR for troops that actually benefit.

 

I've done it before with the standard Phobos-pattern Land Raider. What it gives you is an AV14-plated scoring unit that sits in the backfield, babysits objectives, and spits lascannon bolts across the table. Is it going to be 100% compatible with every army? Of course not, most things aren't. But it can work and be useful.

[AlexCrute]

I agree the assault-ramp is wasted, but in exchange for an unshiftable objective-camping (or killpoint-denying) gamewinner. It seems more than viable to me, especially with the options of landraider variants.