Marines found wanting

[ak-73]

I agree the assault-ramp is wasted, but in exchange for an unshiftable objective-camping (or killpoint-denying) gamewinner. It seems more than viable to me, especially with the options of landraider variants.

 

Everybody and their kid brother spams melta/lances these days. It's a major reason for LR being over-costed and not effective other than delivering Thundernators ASAP safely.

 

Alex

[Squirrelloid]

Has anyone play-tested tactical squads in landraiders?

 

Why would you? Being an assault vehicle does *nothing* for tactical marines. Might as well stick them in a rhino and save the LR for troops that actually benefit.

 

I've done it before with the standard Phobos-pattern Land Raider. What it gives you is an AV14-plated scoring unit that sits in the backfield, babysits objectives, and spits lascannon bolts across the table. Is it going to be 100% compatible with every army? Of course not, most things aren't. But it can work and be useful.

 

What a waste of 250 points.

 

As the last poster so appropriately noted, LR are not that unkillable. Lances and Meltas are more common than just about anything else. I don't think I've ever seen a LR survive a game.

 

LRs have a short window of time to accomplish their mission before inevitably becoming slag. That mission cannot involve holding an objective, because there should be no expectation the LR will survive (and lets be honest, you can get 2 lascannons for less than 250 points too). Which inevitably means the primary mission for a LR has to be delivering a close combat squad into assault. Its the only way to justify that 250 point pricetag.

 

(Indeed, the assault delivery LR has a higher likelihood of surviving because close combats will cut off lines of fire, protecting it from some or all of the enemy).

[Jaigo]

As a next purchase I look forward getting a redeemer (with magnets ofc for variation) to get assault termies where I want them.

Also I like the assault cannon, optional free melta to make to points equal to other landraider and those flamestorm cannon's seem awsome.

If oppertunity presents (I am patient for that day) I would love to use both on a different target in the same shooting phase. That would make my day.

[ak-73]

Phobos-pattern LR can hang back. But only if if you have a machanized gunline army list and it houses Thundernators for counter-assault.

 

Alex

[spartan249]

Phobos pattern LRs require much more finesse in their use then Redeemers and Crusaders require. However, when used by the more conservative player, the LR Phobos can prove to be the most valuable of the available LRs because of the ability of the Phobos to engage in the two different styles of play.

 

While the other LRs are willfully thrusting themselves into melta/MC/Fist killzones every game, the LRP can serve as a tactical trap, serving as the melta platform bait to use to draw enemy forces into a noose, which you can draw closed with the rest of your (hopefully) mobile force and focus fire. And unlike the other two LRs, the LRP can plink away with Lascannons while it's at it. With a cover save from terrain if you have the positioning.

 

The current metagame has come to closely resemble the 4th ed era of VEHICLES GO BOOM RITE NAO! with the huge piles of super effective anti-heavy armor weapons running/flying/slithering around for all LRs, so most of them have become obsolete these days. Maybe when 6th comes around, we'll see LRs come closer to being worth their arm + leg.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

What a waste of 250 points.

 

As the last poster so appropriately noted, LR are not that unkillable. Lances and Meltas are more common than just about anything else. I don't think I've ever seen a LR survive a game.

 

LRs have a short window of time to accomplish their mission before inevitably becoming slag. That mission cannot involve holding an objective, because there should be no expectation the LR will survive (and lets be honest, you can get 2 lascannons for less than 250 points too). Which inevitably means the primary mission for a LR has to be delivering a close combat squad into assault. Its the only way to justify that 250 point pricetag.

 

(Indeed, the assault delivery LR has a higher likelihood of surviving because close combats will cut off lines of fire, protecting it from some or all of the enemy).

 

 

Really? I find that odd, because I'm able to keep my enemy's anti-tank guns busy with the whole rest of my army and have had several LRPs survive entire games -- even tournament games. As much as folks spam melta guns, they also get caught up in their target priority issues. Shove a Razorback with a Libby and quad-plasma command squad, or Lysander and some Tactical Terminators, or a Vindicator, in their face like I do, and you'll find them focusing fire on what's up front and not what's in back. Plus, I'm good with terrain and sticking other tanks in the way of lascannons and lances for LOS-blocking and cover saves for my LRP.

 

And besides, the point isn't two lascannons for 250 points. The point isn't even two twinlinked lascannons for 250 points. The point is a well-armored scoring unit that can provide a base of fire for my forward elements. I like it even if you think its a waste, which is fine since I'm not trying to convince anyone that it is The Next Awesome Tactic Everyone Should Use. In fact, when I start painting up a new Fire Angels army this summer, I'm going to buy a new LRP for use by the Fire Angels because their character from IA9 makes this exact set-up seven kinds of awesome.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

The point is a well-armored scoring unit

 

Tactical marines in a LR can still serve a purpose, indeed.

 

Just be happy that you're not a Khorne player with 'zerkers in a land raider. The only way to go is forward, and that LR won't survive the game AND doesn't have PotMS. No camping objectives in their raider.

 

Let's face it, people DO actually take Tactial Terminators sometimes. What if you don't put them in the LR and want to deep strike them? Boom, sit those Tactical PA marines in it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The point is a well-armored scoring unit

 

Tactical marines in a LR can still serve a purpose, indeed.

 

Just be happy that you're not a Khorne player with 'zerkers in a land raider. The only way to go is forward, and that LR won't survive the game AND doesn't have PotMS. No camping objectives in their raider.

 

Let's face it, people DO actually take Tactial Terminators sometimes. What if you don't put them in the LR and want to deep strike them? Boom, sit those Tactical PA marines in it.

 

Yeah, people like me. I'm one of those weird people who find utility in units that teh Interwebz claim to be the suxxor. Or however that garbage is spelled.

[Captain Idaho]

Phobos-pattern LR can hang back. But only if if you have a machanized gunline army list and it houses Thundernators for counter-assault.

 

Alex

 

Or Honour Guard ;)

 

I've often been tempted to put Calgar in a Landraider and a full Tactical squad. Saves on points and still packs a punch with Calgar.

 

Could go crazy and shove another character in there if you drop a model or 2, though you do lose a little utility.

[Jaigo]

Odd enough, this thread led me to pick up scouts.

Snipers, ml and telion... hope to find a shop that sells the tellion model.

 

I used to think scouts were not that great, but i,m going to try them out

[ak-73]

Telion is the only way to make snipers be an actual concern for the enemy.

 

Alex

[AlexCrute]

I suppose I could respond directly to the OP

 

How do I maximize the output of an tactical squad.

 

I'd suggest step 1 is define 'output'. I take it your primary meaning is damage output, which is something we all turn over and over in our minds, and come to the same conclusion: Damage capability is pretty easy to max out, the options are right there in the codex, it's just not that many dice is it?

 

They can't do most of what we believe a tactical space marine should be able to do, but you and I forget this and pretend they are sternguard or something.

 

Shooting MEQ with tactical squads is rarely rewarding. You'll kill four in an extraordinary good turn of rapid fire with the right loadout, zero to three the rest of the time (or at range, and depending on your loadout).

Shooting tyranids or orks or guard with bolters is very satisfying but not always as productive as it looks. You can be removing decent numbers of models every turn and still come out without paying your points off.

Close combat is generally dismal except with equal numbers of desperately outclassed enemies. Then it's at least fun, if not actually productive.

 

Don't rely on them to out-kill everything, that isn't their job. Their job is to claim objectives and be alive at the end of the game, taking opportunities along the way without jeopardising their mission.

 

If you can melta a tank, do it. If you can instakill a character, do it. If you can krakswarm an artillery piece or transport, do it. If you can shoot 2 surviving CSM off an objective, do it. But don't run all over the board hoping to do these things every turn like the books.

 

tl;dr - think of output in terms of objectives claimed/killpoints denied moreso than damage done

[Jaigo]

Well said

[Bannus]

Don't rely on them to out-kill everything, that isn't their job. Their job is to claim objectives and be alive at the end of the game, taking opportunities along the way without jeopardising their mission.

Unfortunately, this is true - and this is the problem.

 

What is suposed to make up the majority (the backbone) of a Battle Company can do little more than sit there and hope to absorb the damage being inflicted upon them. Yes, once you advance through the ranks of the Devastator Squads and Assault Squads, you get to join the ranks of the elite benchwarmers Tactical Squads.

[IdOfEntity]

Unfortunately, this is true - and this is the problem.

 

What is suposed to make up the majority (the backbone) of a Battle Company can do little more than sit there and hope to absorb the damage being inflicted upon them. Yes, once you advance through the ranks of the Devastator Squads and Assault Squads, you get to join the ranks of the elite benchwarmers Tactical Squads.

 

It's not glorious, but have you as a Xenos player ever tried to unseat a full tactical squad off of an objective? It's a royal pain! And in objective games the objective is the priority (and thus the fully qualified tactical marines are well suited to the job).

 

Tac marines are good at holding ground, especially in cover. You have to run interference on flame squads and CC Elites, but they're wicked resilient against ballistic bombardment. I play as Tau at times, and a Tactical Squad in cover is too hard a target to move considering there are other things to deal with on the field. I can't commit the shots to soften them without ignoring some high priority stuff coming to kill my Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits.

 

Claiming the field is the work of Elites and Fast Attack marines. Holding it against an onslaught is the work of Tacticals.

[AlexCrute]

What is suposed to make up the majority (the backbone) of a Battle Company can do little more than sit there and hope to absorb the damage being inflicted upon them. Yes, once you advance through the ranks of the Devastator Squads and Assault Squads, you get to join the ranks of the elite benchwarmers Tactical Squads.

 

While I appreciate that accurate fluff can be tricky to translate into functional tabletop rules, it makes me sad that our Adeptus Astartes are not individually more dangerous on the tabletop.

 

I suppose we have to conclude that the 41st millennium is grimmer and darker (from the Imperial point of view) even than presented in the fluff, ie; it's not that marines are weak, it's that everything else is super-gribbly and terrifying and nigh invulnerable even to the hallowed bolter shell.

 

To kill with tactical marines, one needs to think in terms of the bolters (and numbers thereof). Trick is to fire all the bolters in the army at the same target, and consider the support weapons as a bonus. This means choosing targets according to bolter range.

[Bannus]

To kill with tactical marines, one needs to think in terms of the bolters (and numbers thereof). Trick is to fire all the bolters in the army at the same target, and consider the support weapons as a bonus. This means choosing targets according to bolter range.

Yes, but bolter range = assault range -1turn and we all know how well Tactical Squads do in assault and how ineffective they are with just one turn of shooting.

;)

[AlexCrute]

Agreed, charge range is to be avoided since tactical marines seem to fight like their hands are in their pockets (1 attack = headbutt).

 

I guess I mean 24" for the most part, however if you are going to dash in and rapidfire something to death, do it with 30 bolters, not 7.

[ak-73]

To kill with tactical marines, one needs to think in terms of the bolters (and numbers thereof). Trick is to fire all the bolters in the army at the same target, and consider the support weapons as a bonus. This means choosing targets according to bolter range.

Yes, but bolter range = assault range -1turn and we all know how well Tactical Squads do in assault and how ineffective they are with just one turn of shooting.

:)

 

The name of the game is to shoot the enemy out of his transports before he can shoot you out of yours. If he needs to foot-slog it over to you, you drop a ton of Dakka Pred and Rifleman Dread shots on his head, plus your Tacticals heavy weapon squads, etc. By the time he rolls over, you can afford to jump out, drop a few more enemies and degrade him to the point where his superior melee skills don't mean anything anymore due to lack of numbers.

 

Also: you lose a combat squad. So what? Please chew me through on the turn you charge, Mr. Heretic, so that I can shoot you some more next turn.

 

 

Alex

[AlexCrute]

Sounds like you've been reading Stelek. I have too since last post and I now think tactical marines might be overpowered - borderline broken - particularly with large numbers of razorbacks and ATSKNF.

 

It makes me happy, kinda, but I still wish they had 2 wounds and 2 attacks base. Nevermind.

[DarkGuard]

Having been playing against a lot of Ork Nobs recently, I can tell you that 2 wounds base would definitely be overpowered for Marines. Think about it, they're a pain to bring down with a 5++ and FnP, Marines will be a pain with a 3+, it's a similar save against small arms. The only defence would be krak missiles, meltas and equivalent.

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

The way tacticals appear in my mind, they are marines first and foremost, they are close range fighters, not melee , but close range firefights, to optimize the 12 rapid fire i supplement them with melta guns, both combi and regular, or the occasional plasma, combi-plasma. Also dont be afraud to pass up the rocket launcher, it is free and it has duel purposes, it may be aheavy weapon but if you want to dig in on an objective your going to be packing some heat to help. Another good tactic i use is just to roll my rhinos up and utilize the top hatches constantly, two gunners can fire and be completely safe from all other fire, to me that is priceless.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

I'm sorry if this is a bit off the reservation - but the way that most things tend to be stronger with redundancy - wouldn't the same apply with Tactical Squads? Their strength is that they are durable and cheap for their durability. They may not have the offensive output of just about anything else... but what if you're game plan revolves around holding the line rather than annihilation?

 

Going to an absolute extreme, you could have an army consisting of 4 10xTactical Squads in Rhinos with ML and Flamer... 2 10x Assault Squads unupgraded... 2 10x Devastator Squads w/ Rhino and 4xML, and then a Captain (unupgraded) with a Command Squad w/ a Company Banner in a Razorback (TL-HB) at 2000 points.

 

With the above army I believe you truly play to the Tactical Squad's strengths in that you've now got 86 power armored bodies on the field. They're not going to kill a smaller and more specialized army... but how many armies would you play against that will truly be equipped to deal with that many bodies? Especially in an environment where people generally don't know what you're going to bring to the table.

 

I believe that amount of bodies combined with combat tactics and the company banner will allow you to control the table through weight of armor. It might not make for a pretty battle but you shouldn't come close to getting tabled either...

[DarkGuard]

But then you have an army with little bite, and a lot of armies out there can eat a Tactical squad in a turn, either through combined firepower or deathstar units. However, it would last a long, long time, but you wouldn't be able to do much with it.

[dswanick]

But then you have an army with little bite, and a lot of armies out there can eat a Tactical squad in a turn, either through combined firepower or deathstar units. However, it would last a long, long time, but you wouldn't be able to do much with it.

Not much - except maybe control more Objectives in the 2/3rds of the missions were Objectives are the Victory Condition.