Marines found wanting

[AlexCrute]

A Stelek example at 2000 pts is:

 

HQ - Librarian; null zone, gate

3 x Riflemen

2 x 10man Tactical squads melta Mmelta combimelta Rhino

3 x 10man Tactical squads melta Plascannon combimelta Rhino

3 x 1 x melta attack bikes

3 dakka preds

 

No boots but tactical marines (and bookkeeper) not lacking bite, not lacking options

 

No combat specialists because if you can leave combat at will, firepower is king.

[dswanick]

Just a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head list :

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

Troops: Tactical Squad (12#, 358 pts)
  1 Space Marine Captain in Power Armour, 133 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Iron Halo; Power Armour; Relic Blade x1; Storm Bolter x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character)
  9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x8; Plasma gun; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Troops: Tactical Squad (12#, 325 pts)
  1 Space Marine Librarian in Power Armour, 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Tactics; Independent Character; Psyker; Force Dome; Machine Curse)
  9 Tactical Squad, 225 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x8; Plasma gun; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
  9 Tactical Squad, 230 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasma gun; Plasma Cannon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
  9 Tactical Squad, 230 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasma gun; Plasma Cannon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Troops: Tactical Squad (11#, 230 pts)
  9 Tactical Squad, 230 pts ((C:SM, pg. 59 & 134); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasma gun; Plasma Cannon; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Combi-Meltagun x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (11#, 285 pts)
  9 Devastator Squad, 285 pts ((C:SM, pg. 61 & 142); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Lascannon x1; Missile Launcher x3; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Signum; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Heavy Support: Devastator Squad (11#, 285 pts)
  9 Devastator Squad, 285 pts ((C:SM, pg. 61 & 142); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x5; Lascannon x1; Missile Launcher x3; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Signum; Bolt Pistol; Bolter; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
  1 Drop Pod (Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-topped); Transport Capacity: 12 models; Storm Bolter; Drop Pod Assault; Immobile; Inertial Guidance System)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.40 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
HQ: 2 (1 - 2)
Elite: 0 (0 - 3)
Troops: 5 (2 - 6)
Fast: 0 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 2 (0 - 3)

Total Roster Cost: 1943

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

And that leaves 50pts for personalization and upgrades.

With a little creative Combat Squading, would you think that this force of 79 bodies could hold enough Objectives to win an Objective-based mission?

[Captain Idaho]

But then you have an army with little bite, and a lot of armies out there can eat a Tactical squad in a turn, either through combined firepower or deathstar units. However, it would last a long, long time, but you wouldn't be able to do much with it.

Not much - except maybe control more Objectives in the 2/3rds of the missions were Objectives are the Victory Condition.

 

I believe the point is taking and holding those objectives, or even just contesting them, is difficult when you are up against something which will wipe the floor with a Tactical squad.

 

As an example, I've had time and again my Honour Guard carve through hordes of basic troops over the course of a game. Sure I've lost the squad or most of it at times, but those 4 objectives held by the opponent were gone by turn 6 (in 1 example).

 

You need bite.

[Bannus]

You need bite.

Tactical Squads need bite.

 

The problem is there is a greater disparity between the Tactical Squad and its more specialized brethren than in other power armored armies.

 

In other words, Space Marine 'elite' are really, really good compared to the 'elite' units of other armies. But the Space Marine 'core troops' are really weaker than the 'core troops' of other armies - and that is the problem.

 

It isn't that Space Marine armies are not balanced to to other armies, the issue is that Space Marine armies are not balanced within themselves (I like to use the Vanguard as an example of this: Assault Squads have been slowly neutered from edition to edition to the point that they now can't fight their way out of a paper bag. Consequently, Space Marine armies sucked in close combat. To fix the problem, GW decides to introduce Vanguard Squads and beef up Terminators instead of fixing the Assault Squad!). GW tries to glorify Tactical Squads by changing the fluff so Space Marines 'graduate' to Tactical Squads (through Scout, Devastator and Assault Squads) just before going Veteran and changing the rules so that only Troops can claim objectives. Despite all this, players still don't like the Tactical Squad because point for point, there are too many units that are better. That is why we still see Space Marine armies sporting a minimum of Tactical Squads when they really should be the heart and soul of the army.

[DarkGuard]

But then you have an army with little bite, and a lot of armies out there can eat a Tactical squad in a turn, either through combined firepower or deathstar units. However, it would last a long, long time, but you wouldn't be able to do much with it.

Not much - except maybe control more Objectives in the 2/3rds of the missions were Objectives are the Victory Condition.

 

I believe the point is taking and holding those objectives, or even just contesting them, is difficult when you are up against something which will wipe the floor with a Tactical squad.

 

As an example, I've had time and again my Honour Guard carve through hordes of basic troops over the course of a game. Sure I've lost the squad or most of it at times, but those 4 objectives held by the opponent were gone by turn 6 (in 1 example).

 

You need bite.

 

Exactly my point. Just the other day my Honour Guard were facing off against a 30 strong Ork Boy unit in cover on an objective, so similar durability to a 10 man Tactical on an objective, provided flamers don't get involved. Charged my Honour Guard into them, wiped them out in two combat phases (my turn and his). Sure I lost half the unit but one of his scoring units had just vaporized.

 

And there are some armies that can do this consistently, Grey Knights being one example, armies that can just wiped out your 10 man unit in assault and move onto the next one. As Idaho said, you need bite. So, new C:SM, rending boltguns anyone? It can be an upgrade :).

[Project.2501]

Give tac marines their combat blades back as people (like myself) have been wondering why they were taken away to begin with from the moment the 5ed. 'dex came out. The whole move to make them shooty only through taking away their combat blades and then adding combat tactics is what's killing them.

 

All IMO.

[DarkGuard]

Even with combat blades they'd still be awful in assault, just look at Chaos Space Marines. Grey Hunters get away with it because of counter-attack, but I can't see Tactical Marines getting that.

 

There's nothing wrong with them being primarily shooty, Marines are a generalist shooty army. They just need some things to help with that, like a reduced cost (compare their cost to a Grey Hunter), and shooting benefits, like being able to take two specials or making boltguns better.

[Laughingdagger]

I wasn't aware they had combat blades in 4th, as far as I remember it they could only have bolters and bolt pistols and 2 out of them could take a special/heavy.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

But then you have an army with little bite, and a lot of armies out there can eat a Tactical squad in a turn, either through combined firepower or deathstar units. However, it would last a long, long time, but you wouldn't be able to do much with it.

Not much - except maybe control more Objectives in the 2/3rds of the missions were Objectives are the Victory Condition.

 

I believe the point is taking and holding those objectives, or even just contesting them, is difficult when you are up against something which will wipe the floor with a Tactical squad.

 

As an example, I've had time and again my Honour Guard carve through hordes of basic troops over the course of a game. Sure I've lost the squad or most of it at times, but those 4 objectives held by the opponent were gone by turn 6 (in 1 example).

 

You need bite.

 

Exactly my point. Just the other day my Honour Guard were facing off against a 30 strong Ork Boy unit in cover on an objective, so similar durability to a 10 man Tactical on an objective, provided flamers don't get involved. Charged my Honour Guard into them, wiped them out in two combat phases (my turn and his). Sure I lost half the unit but one of his scoring units had just vaporized.

 

And there are some armies that can do this consistently, Grey Knights being one example, armies that can just wiped out your 10 man unit in assault and move onto the next one. As Idaho said, you need bite. So, new C:SM, rending boltguns anyone? It can be an upgrade :jaw:.

 

Rending Boltguns and Chainswords.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Rending Boltguns and Chainswords.

 

This is something I have toyed with the idea of. A Tactical Sergeant (because he's all uber and everything) Either just has as a part of his profile or can purchase (@say 3pts per model) the Special Rule 'Bolter Drill'.

 

The other idea was the ubiquitous chainsword. All Chainswords in the Codex are 'Astartes Pattern Chainswords' and are buffed by allowing the model using them to reroll failed 'To Wound' rolls. Even if it's not all wounds and just the equivalent of Digital Weapons (reroll one failed wound) would be great and less game breaking.

 

I think in one fell swoop this would 'fix' most SM players problems with Tactical and Assault Marines. It doesn't make them as uber against big gribblies so there's still a place for Devs, Vanguard, Sterguard and Hammernators etc but makes more consistent at killing the hoards of stuff we see them killing in the fluff.

 

Thoughts?

[Project.2501]

Even with combat blades they'd still be awful in assault, just look at Chaos Space Marines. Grey Hunters get away with it because of counter-attack, but I can't see Tactical Marines getting that.

 

There's nothing wrong with them being primarily shooty, Marines are a generalist shooty army. They just need some things to help with that, like a reduced cost (compare their cost to a Grey Hunter), and shooting benefits, like being able to take two specials or making boltguns better.

 

First of all, if people want rending bolters, go play Necrons (particularly last/3rd ed. codex). While doin so, take a peek at their statline. Notice how their Init. is 2? This is to offset their great shooting and rending gauss weapons. It's about all they can do, just shoot, and they also get the squad sizes (20 max) to make up for the low Init. that in CC they will cost a lot of bodies.

 

Chaos space marines are NOT awefull in assault. You must be comparing them to either specialized units, or units with gimmicks/specuial characters added to them. Grey hunters rely on a WG for the LD to pull off Counterattack AND a Wolf standard. Blood angels assault squads in particular rely on their special weapons first and foremost (defeating the intended 'assault' purpose) followed by, yet again, an attatched character, the sanguinary priest.

 

The point of tactical squads is to be tactically flexible. By making them into shooty specialists with rending bolters, you're invalidating tactical flexibility and taking away from another unit of shooting specialists called Sternguard. By giving them a ccw as well, you maintain their tactical flexibility, while not stepping on the toes of specialized units, by allowing the option of assault to not only be viable, but actually desirable for the extra attack (31 optimal on the charge from a full squad with marine statline). To top it all of, you STILL have a SGT that can be geared out to support either or both roles.

[Bannus]

This is something I have toyed with the idea of. A Tactical Sergeant (because he's all uber and everything) Either just has as a part of his profile or can purchase (@say 3pts per model) the Special Rule 'Bolter Drill'.

I would think that maybe it should just be standard for Tactical Squads - much simpler that way, no?

 

The other idea was the ubiquitous chainsword. All Chainswords in the Codex are 'Astartes Pattern Chainswords' and are buffed by allowing the model using them to reroll failed 'To Wound' rolls. Even if it's not all wounds and just the equivalent of Digital Weapons (reroll one failed wound) would be great and less game breaking.

I think that may be a bit much. I had also contemplated giving chainswords (as opposed to 'common' CCWs) a +1 Str advantage....but I also felt that was a bit much as well. I think that rending for chainswords is just enough 'oomph' to make them better than CCWs and not encroach too much on power weapon terrritory.

 

I think in one fell swoop this would 'fix' most SM players problems with Tactical and Assault Marines. It doesn't make them as uber against big gribblies so there's still a place for Devs, Vanguard, Sterguard and Hammernators etc but makes more consistent at killing the hoards of stuff we see them killing in the fluff.

 

Thoughts?

In my own Codex project (found in the Homegrown rules subforum - I know...shameless plug :yes:), I actually eliminated the Vanguard Squad altogether (it wasn't a Codex unit until 5th edition) and allowed Assault Squads to basically get the same weapons they used to have in 2nd edition.

 

I'll have to think on bolter drill for Tactical Squads though. That might just be enough to make them attractive again.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I wouldn't be opposed to Bolter Drill on Tac Squads; the more I think about it, the better of an idea it seems. To cure their assaults woes, I will continue to stand by my assertion that Tac Squads need to have a bolter, CCW, and the old True Grit rule. 2 attacks base, but no bonus for charging so they can stand up to dedicated assault units without stepping on the toes of Assault Squads.

[DarkGuard]

They shouldn't be stepping on their toes anyway. Give them boltgun, bolt pistol, CCW, shooty special rule of some sort, sorted.

 

Then Assault squads should be able to upgrade 1 in 5 guys to have a power weapon among other things such as meltaguns, while their chainswords cause rending.

[Captain Idaho]

In my own Codex Ultramarines I introduced Codex Astartes Doctrines which were only usable by Tactical Marines and that made them worthwhile.

 

A practical alternative for those who dislike too much would be a rule for each squad kind of like how each Grey Knight squad has an associated Psychic power.

[Project.2501]

As an homage to Lysander and the old DH codex, how about bolter drill only being able to be used if the squad's SGT is still alive?

[DarkGuard]

That wouldn't be too bad. My only worry though is that even with bolter drill they won't pack much of a punch against Marines. They'll decimate horde armies more easily, but will still struggle against power armour IMO. Something like rending or a -1 armour save modifier would be cool, but potentially OP.

[carnosaur93]

reroll to hit WOULD effect anti MEQ... since more hits means more saves needs to be taken... still, bolter drill would actually be sorta OP, aswell... it would be like if they all had twinlinked bolters... another way to fix marine shooting might be to give them more options like: being able to take 2 specials OR 2 heavies in a 10-man squad, and the ability to take other choises of heavies (like a heavy flamer, or auto cannon). also abit controversial, but allowing powerswords as an available special weapon might also be interesting. i think this is justified by the tacs graduading from a specialist unit to the tac squad...

 

personally i think 40k have enough special rules plastered allover it as is allready, so why add more when customization is much more fun? and afterall, this is supossed to be the BASE UNIT OF THE ENTIRE GAME able to do "everything" so the less special rules, and the more ability to do "everything" the better

[DarkGuard]

Yes bolter drill would effect MEQ, but it wouldn't do as much as some people feel it would. Marines are good shots, some of the best as far as basic troops are concerned, and hit 66% of the time. Now I'm not that good at the maths, but I guess with bolter drill that goes up 88% of the time? Wound Marines on a 4+ etc, I'm not doing the maths. But my points is that you'll be looking at a few extra hits, which will seem like a few, but only a couple of extra wounds, at most you're looking at an extra wound IMO, on average. It's a nice idea, and definitely not OP against MEQ, although against GEQ it certainly is.

[carnosaur93]

It's a nice idea, and definitely not OP against MEQ, although against GEQ it certainly is

 

that was sorta what i meant by calling it OP :) ... but just wanted to point out that it DOES have an effect on MEQ, even if not by much

 

i still stand to my point that more customization would be more fair, as it would not just make them deadly versus one target, but potentially a proper threat to any, if kitted out right... and its more fun

[Captain Idaho]

Anyways, I feel we should maintain focus in this thread and keep the discussion on the strategic and tacticial use of the current Tactical Marines we have access to.

[Tigrinus]

The subject of tactical squads is a controversial one, and every load out has its merits.

 

The main strength of the Tactical Marine is his survivability, however. It takes a significant expenditure of firepower over multiple turns to wipe out a 10-man squad sitting in cover. As for those weapons that really tear them up, well, just remember that if your opponent is using multi-shot and/or high strength weapons against your tacticals, that's firepower not being sent the way of your more specialized units. In this way Tactical Marines contribute to the overall survivability of your entire force. Part of this has to do with the psychological factors. Everyone knows how tenacious Tactical Squads are, if not in direct action then as "place holders" (i.e. objective holding). Your opponent is simply not going to ignore a 10-man squad loaded out with special and heavy weapons, and that's the point: the more he/she decides to shoot at in a turn, the less likely they are to inflict serious losses with that fire.

 

I run a Marine horde, of sorts, so perhaps I am just favorably biased towards the vanilla Marine. But considering heavy weapon redundancy, their own survival, and the survival of the entire force, I recommend no less than 3 full squads at 1500+ pts. As far as load out goes, I agree with most of the above posts when I say that 1)a sergeant's combi weapon is your friend, 2)that that combi weapon should ideally match the special weapon you've chosen for the squad, 3)the heavy weapon depends on what you're up against balanced against the presence of similar weapons elsewhere in your army, and finally 4)that there is a very good chance that a least a part of the squad is going to survive the game, and therefore whatever you put into the squad may be all that you have to rely on in the last two turns. Those factors should help you narrow down your load out selection.

 

One more thing: don't forget about the grenades that they get for free. The look on an opponent's face is priceless when his Leman Russ MBT is knocked out by a boltgun Marine using Krak Grenades!

[Brother Captain Josef]

This is something I have toyed with the idea of. A Tactical Sergeant (because he's all uber and everything) Either just has as a part of his profile or can purchase (@say 3pts per model) the Special Rule 'Bolter Drill'.

I would think that maybe it should just be standard for Tactical Squads - much simpler that way, no?

 

The other idea was the ubiquitous chainsword. All Chainswords in the Codex are 'Astartes Pattern Chainswords' and are buffed by allowing the model using them to reroll failed 'To Wound' rolls. Even if it's not all wounds and just the equivalent of Digital Weapons (reroll one failed wound) would be great and less game breaking.

I think that may be a bit much. I had also contemplated giving chainswords (as opposed to 'common' CCWs) a +1 Str advantage....but I also felt that was a bit much as well. I think that rending for chainswords is just enough 'oomph' to make them better than CCWs and not encroach too much on power weapon terrritory.

 

I think in one fell swoop this would 'fix' most SM players problems with Tactical and Assault Marines. It doesn't make them as uber against big gribblies so there's still a place for Devs, Vanguard, Sterguard and Hammernators etc but makes more consistent at killing the hoards of stuff we see them killing in the fluff.

 

Thoughts?

In my own Codex project (found in the Homegrown rules subforum - I know...shameless plug :)), I actually eliminated the Vanguard Squad altogether (it wasn't a Codex unit until 5th edition) and allowed Assault Squads to basically get the same weapons they used to have in 2nd edition.

 

I'll have to think on bolter drill for Tactical Squads though. That might just be enough to make them attractive again.

 

Nothing wrong with a shameless plug my friend. I'll be sure to have a searchy for your rules.

 

I understand your concerns on the Astartes Pattern Chainsword point. It is an inherently more difficult problem to 'fix' as it were. I initially thought of rending too but ironically given your observation I thought it was stepping on the toes of power weapons too much! So thought 1 re-roll per sword ala the 'digital weapons' wargear option might be more appropriate.

 

I have to admit though it does make some sense with a full 10 man unit charging (31 attacks) you would probably expect to see no more than 2/3 rends against MEQ or anything actually given the nature of the Rending SR. I think that if your sergeant has a powerfist this would probably be just enough to swing it to make Assault Squads able to compete with other assault specialists.

 

As an homage to Lysander and the old DH codex, how about bolter drill only being able to be used if the squad's SGT is still alive?

 

This is exactly what we were thinking re:tac squads.

 

Captain Idaho, I appreciate your point we have allowed ourselves to get a little side tracked :)

[Brother Captain Josef]

Ok, back on topic :)

 

The subject of tactical squads is a controversial one, and every load out has its merits.

 

The main strength of the Tactical Marine is his survivability, however. It takes a significant expenditure of firepower over multiple turns to wipe out a 10-man squad sitting in cover. As for those weapons that really tear them up, well, just remember that if your opponent is using multi-shot and/or high strength weapons against your tacticals, that's firepower not being sent the way of your more specialized units. In this way Tactical Marines contribute to the overall survivability of your entire force. Part of this has to do with the psychological factors. Everyone knows how tenacious Tactical Squads are, if not in direct action then as "place holders" (i.e. objective holding). Your opponent is simply not going to ignore a 10-man squad loaded out with special and heavy weapons, and that's the point: the more he/she decides to shoot at in a turn, the less likely they are to inflict serious losses with that fire.

 

I run a Marine horde, of sorts, so perhaps I am just favorably biased towards the vanilla Marine. But considering heavy weapon redundancy, their own survival, and the survival of the entire force, I recommend no less than 3 full squads at 1500+ pts. As far as load out goes, I agree with most of the above posts when I say that 1)a sergeant's combi weapon is your friend, 2)that that combi weapon should ideally match the special weapon you've chosen for the squad, 3)the heavy weapon depends on what you're up against balanced against the presence of similar weapons elsewhere in your army, and finally 4)that there is a very good chance that a least a part of the squad is going to survive the game, and therefore whatever you put into the squad may be all that you have to rely on in the last two turns. Those factors should help you narrow down your load out selection.

 

One more thing: don't forget about the grenades that they get for free. The look on an opponent's face is priceless when his Leman Russ MBT is knocked out by a boltgun Marine using Krak Grenades!

 

A lot of good points there and the bit I bolded is widely accepted as the optimum squad build ethic and an excellent place to start when considering your tac load out options.

 

EDIT:Grammar, its sucking lol

[Warprat]

Well, I'm a little late to this party, but I really like SM Tactical squads. In fact I run an all foot army with 4 of them and a big unit of tactical Terminators.

 

I have faced off against Grey Hunters with them, and believe that point for point, SM Tactical squads are just as good. In different ways... Of course I know that should a full squad of Grey Hunters meet up with a full squad of SM Tacticals, the Grey Hunters will come out on top in close combat.

 

 

 

Lets look a squad of Grey Hunters vs. a Tactical squad.

 

What is my advantage? I can out range them with my heavy weapon, and they must come to me. Also, given that I will lose close combat against them, combat squading is not a disadvantage. Dividing the squad will allow the specials and heavy weapon to be used to the max.

 

I usually run Tacticals with combi-flamer, flamer and plasma cannon. Plasma guns, missile launchers and what-not would work pretty well too. They work well against most types of armies and in different situations.

 

My combat squad goes forward to use specials on the Grey Hunters, and delay them. I get to pick the range, because they must close. If I flank and shoot from the side (or behind), they must delay a turn or so, taking down my combat squad by shooting or close combat. I want to keep them from just running up to my heavy squad. My combi and regular special alpha strike, doing some decent damage. Maybe I get one in close combat as well. The heavy weapon squad should get at least 2-3 turns of shooting, and there should be a few bolter shots to whittle down one more.

 

Add all that up, and hopefully there is not too much left of the Grey Hunters by the time they get to my heavy combat squad. But, all in all, it should be about equal.

 

 

 

Of course, in a bigger battle, you have all sorts of units working together on both sides. But the principle is the same, shoot the assaults and assault the shooty. Tacticals, using the special rules of the Space Marines codex, can do rather well.

 

Warprat ;)