How many losses did the Ultramarines take on Calth?

[Gree]

As the title says, how many losses did the Ultramarines take at Calth? The only references I can find to this was Collected Visions stating that three-quarters of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed, Guilliman calling it a mortal blow and ‘’tens of thousands’’ of troops killed by the Word Bearers orbital assault.

 

Does anyone have any other reference or is this it?

[Legatus]

Somehow I remember something about "one third" of the Legion being lost at Calth, but I have been trying to find the source for that on some past occasions and was unable to do so. Maybe that was just something I picked up on a message board. It sounds plausible enough, since the Ultramarines probably were still largely capable when they made their way to Terra.

[Gree]

Well it’s kind of related to that.

 

The Ultramarines in past fluff were stated to be largely untouched by the Heresy, yet they supposedly lost at least three-quarters of their fleet according to Collected Visions in a ‘’mortal blow’’. That doesn’t exactly sound like they were largely intact. Three-quarters of the fleet could imply three quarters of the Legion destroyed. It seems odd to me so I’m trying to find out if we have any other statements on this. Hopefully Know No Fear shall clarify matters.

[Son of Rawl]

It was enough for him to realise the danger and power of a full astartes legion, and that such power can never be wielded again.

[Legatus]

Three-quarters of the fleet could imply three quarters of the Legion destroyed.

The ground battle on Calth (as is often the case in the 40K universe) was probably more crucial to the engagement, and I assume that most of the forces of the Ultramarines had been planetside. Somehow the commanders of 40K never just nuke a site from orbit to make sure.

[Gree]

Well, even if most of the Legion was planetside I wouldn’t exactly call the Legion intact. After all, the Ultramarines fleet took crippling losses. Without the fleet the ability for Astartes to deploy and engage is severely restricted.

 

Although most of the Ultramarines Legion does seem to be planetside, as Venatus is mentioned as boarding transport ships when the attack came. Tens of thousands are stated to have been slain by the Word Bearers orbital bombardment, but it’s unclear if that’s referring to Astartes or PDF.

[Kol Saresk]

And then you would have to count up the tally fron when the Word Bearers poisoned Calth's sun so it's possible we might never know the full extent.

[Legatus]

Losing a third of a strength of 250,000 would still have left them with 160,000. So while that would not really count as "unscathed" in the sense that the Legion was not at their former full strength, they still had the fighting capability of a regular Legion and then some.

 

Also, the bit about the Ultramarines surviving the Heresy unharmed comes from 2nd Edition (whereas in 1st Edition they were described as heavily involved in the fighting, at least in the Space Marine Epic rulebook, which was set during the Heresy). I am not sure where the battle of Calth originated, but it might have been the 3rd Edition Index Astartes series. That would explain why statements about the Ultramarines surviving largely unharmed and them suffering casualties on Calth are not matching perfectly.

[Falconis]

The next Heresy book will be out on Feb 18th and that covers Calth- should have some answers in there I'd guess!

[Veteran Sergeant]

Also, the bit about the Ultramarines surviving the Heresy unharmed comes from 2nd Edition

Even the 5th Edition Codex describes them as "largely untouched by the fighting" so it is obvious that the Black Library fluff and the Codexes doesn't really jive, but then again, the "official" fluff doesn't jive either. The Battle of Calth, from what I can tell and recall, was first mentioned in the Word Bearers White Dwarf article that later was republished in one of the Index Astartes books. It is interesting to note that in the Ultramarines White Dwarf/Index Astartes article, there is no mention of the Battle of Calth at all and the articles were published only six months apart, lol.

 

The stories conflict in all kinds of places. The aforementioned White DwarfWord Bearers article says that only half the legion attacked the Ultramarines but they outnumbered them, and the other half of the legion went to Terra to fight. And that story tells us the Word Bearers were ultimately defeated by Ultramarines reinforcements so it clashes with the idea that the Ultramarines were mustering at Calth in their entirety and they only fought a small portion of the Ultramarines there. So that account can't be taken at face value if we decide the newer fluff holds "canonicity", for whatever that is worth with GW IP. More recent stories tell that the Word Bearers attacked Calth "almost in their entirety", which would make a little more sense if the Ultramarines were there mustering for a huge campaign. After all, even if the Furious Abyss had made it to Calth (no matter how abysmally bad that book was), and the advantage of surprise, the Word Bearers would need most, if not all of their strength to hope to defeat a legion with a superior general, superior fighting experience, and two and a half times their numbers in both space and ground assets.

 

I've never heard of the 1/3 number, but, like it was said, that would still leave them much larger than even the largest of the other legions since in defeat there's no way the Word Bearers don't take similar casualties.

 

The answer will ultimately be whatever Dan Abnett decided when he wrote Know No Fear and then it will be contradicted in the next Codex: Space Marines. <_<

[Legatus]

The Battle of Calth, from what I can tell and recall, was first mentioned in the Word Bearers White Dwarf article that later was republished in one of the Index Astartes books. It is interesting to note that in the Ultramarines White Dwarf/Index Astartes article, there is no mention of the Battle of Calth at all and the articles were published only six months apart, lol.

The Ultramarines article does say in the section about Ultramar that Calth's sun had been poisoned by the Word bearers Legion. Though it does not further describe the circumstances.

 

And the "numerical superiority" of the traitors might have included the cultists and daemons versus the Ultramarines and the Calth defense force.

[Veteran Sergeant]

No matter how the numerical superiority was achieved, we still know that they couldn't have been fighting the whole legion if it was Ultramarines reinforcements that ultimately defeated them. Any way you want to slice it, that version of the story and the "modern" version of the story cannot co-exist so one or the other has to be chosen.

[Epistolary Exander]

No matter how the numerical superiority was achieved, we still know that they couldn't have been fighting the whole legion if it was Ultramarines reinforcements that ultimately defeated them. Any way you want to slice it, that version of the story and the "modern" version of the story cannot co-exist so one or the other has to be chosen.

 

Since when do we have to work so quantitively with something that is at its very nature is qualitative, if you are trying to be emperical with the fluff here all you can really say is that fluff on this matter is rather inconclusive atm.

[Epistolary Exander]

That was a lot of ten dollar words to offer twenty five cents worth of input. Perhaps in your future posting endeavors you should strive for simplicity and take a minimalist approach. All I am stating is fact. The story of the Battle of Calth from White Dwarf/Index Astartes and the story of the Battle of Calth from more recent Black Library sources are not compatible and as such details from them cannot be used interchangeably. By the very nature of that statement, I did in fact say it was inconclusive since only one of the stories can be "true". It is obvious that eventually the Black Library version will be the "canon" (for whatever that term is worth in the 40K setting) version of events.

 

No I was being quite accurate with what I have said, you were saying the only way foward with this topic is to pick one version of what happened on Calth or the other as is shown in your below quote.

 

No matter how the numerical superiority was achieved, we still know that they couldn't have been fighting the whole legion if it was Ultramarines reinforcements that ultimately defeated them. Any way you want to slice it, that version of the story and the "modern" version of the story cannot co-exist so one or the other has to be chosen.

 

I would probably be irresponsible to do that option as atm the both versions of the fluff are equally valid as the new fluff has only expanded the knowledge out there on this subject. Besides most of the fluff is based on the bias of whoever article/ novel is focused on so due to the vastly different view points from both the characters in the fluff and sometimes compounded by the bias/ styles of the fluff writers/ contributors themselves. Its probably wise to expect to recieve varrying accounts within the fluff on issues such as this, just as we are having different views on this matter :).

 

Depending on if the new novel focuses equally on both the Word Bearers and Ultramarines, then maybe it should be the "canon" ^_^.

[Grimdarkness]

IIRC the battle of calth in the vision books had 10 000 Ultramarines on the planet fighting half of the word bearers legion as the rest of the legion and the primarch engaged the word bearers in space. Again if I recall correctly.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

The obvious answer is "Not enough." :rolleyes:

[Captain Idaho]

That was a lot of ten dollar words to offer twenty five cents worth of input. Perhaps in your future posting endeavors you should strive for simplicity and take a minimalist approach. All I am stating is fact. The story of the Battle of Calth from White Dwarf/Index Astartes and the story of the Battle of Calth from more recent Black Library sources are not compatible and as such details from them cannot be used interchangeably. By the very nature of that statement, I did in fact say it was inconclusive since only one of the stories can be "true". It is obvious that eventually the Black Library version will be the "canon" (for whatever that term is worth in the 40K setting) version of events.

 

That was uncalled for. Let's have less flaming in future.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

EE is spot on with his statement that the fluff will overlap, contradict and diverge but all versions will be correct. This has been a cornerstone of the Warhammer 40k mythos; secrecy, mythology, mystery, darkness, ignorance. One of the most popular sets of codices was the Index Astartes series which are BLATANTLY contradictory. With the Black Library series we are learning that things arent quite so golden in the time before the Golden Throne back in 30k land. The perspective/3rd person limited narrative style (so successfully used by G.RR.Martin! HBO APRIL! OT sorry :) ) used in the majority of the Black Library Heresy novels will always leave that question of doubt and the best novelists of the bunch will let the biases of the narrator spill over and "taint" the reader's perspective so that nothing can be relied upon. Or everything can be relied upon depending on your perspective. Its like when Satan tells his first lie in Paradise Lost. All downhill from there and a matter of who or what to believe.

 

edit: Hehe Khestra! It worked out okay for the Ultras in the end :tu:

[eyeslikethunder]

I would probably be irresponsible to do that option as atm the both versions of the fluff are equally valid as the new fluff has only expanded the knowledge out there on this subject. Besides most of the fluff is based on the bias of whoever article/ novel is focused on so due to the vastly different view points from both the characters in the fluff and sometimes compounded by the bias/ styles of the fluff writers/ contributors themselves. Its probably wise to expect to recieve varrying accounts within the fluff on issues such as this, just as we are having different views on this matter .

 

This is even true of history if you actually read historical documents quite often there is contridictory statements with different points view.

 

Look at the battle of agicourt how big victory was it did the english really destroy an army ten time there size?

there are different opinions and reports. this was a real event yet no one knows the absolute truth. Just guess work and opinions